Why are Dragons's under CRd?

[RadiantPhoenix]

Source? I thought that was the case too, but went looking recently and couldn't find anything of the sort.

http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org ... Types.html

Traits: [...] A swarm made up of Tiny creatures takes half damage from slashing and piercing weapons. A swarm composed of Fine or Diminutive creatures is immune to all weapon damage. [...]

A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures (including single-target spells such as disintegrate), with the exception of mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects) if the swarm has an Intelligence score and a hive mind. A swarm takes half again as much damage (+50%) from spells or effects that affect an area, such as splash weapons and many evocation spells.

[fectin]

Awsome. Listed under the swarm subtype, but not under the swarm entry.

I completely concede the point on Summon Swarm; it's a distraction at best.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Source? I thought that was the case too, but went looking recently and couldn't find anything of the sort.

It's under the Swarm entry in the Types listing, either in the MM or the SRD, but not conveniently in the partial listing of swarm traits in the creature listing.

It really can't. Bats "see" perfectly for 20 ft, and move 40. They either reach you fine or do nothing.

So you can defeat the swarm by being more than 20 feet away? It's moot in any case, because they're crisped by the breath.

Are breath weapons spell effects, weapons, or missiles? Because that's the complete list of things that go through the walls. It's an opaque sphere of force with some weird interactions listed.

It is the complete list of things that go through the hut 'without affecting it.' Your reading is based on ignoring a chunk of the sentence.

'Sphere of force' doesn't mean anything except that it also extends onto the ethereal plane. Wall of Force isn't immune to damage and impassable because it's a force effect, it is those things because the spell description tells us it is those things.

Tiny Hut tells us what it stops, and one thing that it will not stop (and will be destroyed by). It then has a list of things that it will not stop, but which will not destroy it. The ambiguity exists, but it exists in whether or not the Hut survives contact with the breath weapon, not whether or not it stops the breath weapon.

[fectin]

Please provide the list of things which can pass through the hut at all.

You create an unmoving, opaque sphere of force of any color you desire around yourself. Half the sphere projects above the ground, and the lower hemisphere passes through the ground. As many as nine other Medium creatures can fit into the field with you; they can freely pass into and out of the hut without harming it. However, if you remove yourself from the hut, the spell ends.

The temperature inside the hut is 70° F if the exterior temperature is between 0° and 100° F. An exterior temperature below 0° or above 100° lowers or raises the interior temperature on a 1-degree-for-1 basis. The hut also provides protection against the elements, such as rain, dust, and sandstorms. The hut withstands any wind of less than hurricane force, but a hurricane (75+ mph wind speed) or greater force destroys it.

The interior of the hut is a hemisphere. You can illuminate it dimly upon command or extinguish the light as desired. Although the force field is opaque from the outside, it is transparent from within. Missiles, weapons, and most spell effects can pass through the hut without affecting it, although the occupants cannot be seen from outside the hut (they have total concealment).

Material Component
A small crystal bead that shatters when the spell duration expires or the hut is dispelled.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Please provide the list of things which can pass through the hut at all.

I didn't claim there was such a list. I said the spell tells you what it stops:

You create an unmoving, opaque (blocks visibility) sphere of force of any color you desire around yourself. Half the sphere projects above the ground, and the lower hemisphere passes through the ground. As many as nine other Medium creatures can fit into the field with you; they can freely pass into and out of the hut without harming it. However, if you remove yourself from the hut, the spell ends.

The temperature inside the hut is 70° F if the exterior temperature is between 0° and 100° F. An exterior temperature below 0° or above 100° lowers or raises the interior temperature on a 1-degree-for-1 basis. The hut also provides protection against the elements, such as rain, dust, and sandstorms. (blocks inclement weather)

I said the spell tells you one thing it will not stop and that destroys it:

The hut withstands any wind of less than hurricane force, but a hurricane (75+ mph wind speed) or greater force destroys it.

I said the spell lists things that it does not stop, but that will not destroy it:

Missiles, weapons, and most spell effects can pass through the hut without affecting it, although the occupants cannot be seen from outside the hut (they have total concealment).

also

As many as nine other Medium creatures can fit into the field with you; they can freely pass into and out of the hut without harming it. However, if you remove yourself from the hut, the spell ends.

Your reading would have this spell blocking any and all supernatural and extraordinary effects based on it not saying it doesn't do that. That's an absurd position.

[fectin]

Err, sorry. Last post wasn't clear.

Tiny hut lists things that can go through it freely (nine medium creatures), then something that can't (tenth creature), then how the outside temperature affects the inside temperature, then list environmental damage it stops, then lists an environmental effect it stops sometimes, then says light doesn't come out, but does go in, then lists two things that go through the barrier cleanly and one which "mostly" does, then reiterates which says light goes through.

So overall, I don't find the argument that tiny hut has a complete list of anything especially compelling.

[angelfromanotherpin]

So overall, I don't find the argument that tiny hut has a complete list of anything especially compelling.

So when you wrote...

Are breath weapons spell effects, weapons, or missiles? Because that's the complete list of things that go through the walls.

(emphasis mine obviously)

...what was that about?

[fectin]

After you questioned it, I looked over the description again and refined my opinion and argument. The same thing as happened with summon swarm, really. Presumably the same thing you did with animate dead.

Anyway, this appears to be a rabbit hole. Rope trick is clearer and has all the benefits that tiny hut might have, even though it's less cool. The underlying point is still the same though: there a a couple of things that you can do against dragons which might work, even if you're not specifically prepared for dragons, but you're most likely dead.

[Prak]

Hm, another method for defeating a dragon would be catapults on wagons with a few hirelings (best if you have a paladin in the party lending courage to said hirelings)

It's not a sure thing, but each heavy catapult deals 21 damage on average, out to 200' every other round. Magic and noncore books just makes it better (though you do need to consult Arms and Equipment Guide to find that a wagon can carry one heavy catapult or two light.)


Again, it's a specialized method, and relies on you knowing you're facing a dragon, or having a bizarre load out as your standard, but it should work pretty well.

[darkmaster]

Catapults also have a minimum distance, so the dragon just has to come close enough to burn you catapults before they kill it.