Mutants and Masterminds d20 2nd Edition Thoughts

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:07 pm

Now this thread brings back memories.

I'm fairly certain the device discount on the artificer option was an accidental perk, because the overall points involved are so negligible. They are, along with Inventor, an alternative means to have variable powers without trying to juggle all of the ranks and extras and flaws to get the same effect. It can be abused to give a better PP return than something like Shapeshift, in theory, through judicious use of skills and flawed Quickness. I'm not sure how much more efficient it might be, as I haven't done the math for it nor have I even run an M&M game for at least half a year.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 1:39 am

And Captain_Bleach memories. whoo

Sir Neil · Post by **Sir Neil** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:50 am

Artificer, and Inventer are lousy. You can make them work, with the right alternate powers and extra hero points, but you can do the same thing better with Shapeshift 4, flawed to 1 minute, limited to only machines/magic items (depending on your flavor), and Subtle. That costs 17 points, but it's only going to cost you 3: 1 point to AP off a 16 point array and 2 points for the feat and some skill ranks -- for flavor, you understand.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 2:32 pm

Is it Possible to change the durataion of a Power to Permanent if the Power is an Alternate Power?
Seems a little strange, since that permanent power isnt permanent anymore.
Still you cant boost the power anymore so it may be possible/balanced to do that.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:23 pm

p108, Core book:

Permanent powers cannot have Alternate Power feats, nor can they be Alternate Powers (since they can’t be turned on and off)

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:00 pm

Thanks, need to do some rebuilding.
HeroLab did let me use Permanent Powers as Alternativ Powers...

Sir Neil · Post by **Sir Neil** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:19 pm

I think I heard that changed in Ultimate Power -- something to do with Alternate Form duration.

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 9:45 pm

Damn that book is out of stock by Amazon (de and com). Got the mail today from amazon.de that they couldnt get it anymore.
Hope I get the Pocket version...

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:20 am

So, thread necro.
In building for the quick shot villain game my friend is running for us, I found a couple break points that require gentleman's agreement/Oberoni intervention.
1) PL 10 game. Summon Minion (Horde, Progression 10 for 1000 minions),
Minion: Bob-omb Imp- total trade off toughness to save DC bonus
Feats: Ultimate Effort, Luck
Shrink 16 (Fine size)
Blast (Area-Burst, Progression 54) 20

Summon 1000 Bob-omb Imps in a single 5' cube of space, tell them to all go off. You have just subjected everything in the universe to 1000 simultaneous Toughness saves at DC 30. (3 steps on Time and Progression table equal one step on Extended Range for numbers so you can figure out stellar relative distances).
Or, If the Universe must absolutely, positively, be destroyed with a bunch of demonic anthropomorphized cartoon bombs to the every atom, tell them to combine their actions, so they all blow their hero point on Ultimate Effort:Attack Roll, so they all get a 40, and all 1000 count as a single attack against the universe with a DC of 2018.

2) Play a character that dumps all his points into Equipment. Buy an HQ, give it Large size, 10 toughness, and 10 ranks of flight. You've just built a person whose sole ability is flying around in a 10' diameter steel sphere, at up to 10,000 mph. For the cost of a feat. All your other points get filtered through the same feat to give you (PLx15)-5 points to spend on more HQ features. If the PL isn't 10, you can raise the toughness to make it titanium or some super alloy, or lower it to fit a lower PL. Powers, like the flight, cost one equipment point for an HQ, but have a max cost of twice the PL, and a max rank of the PL. Oh no, you can only go 10,000 mph in your super diving bell that protects you from all harm. So Sad. I'm sure you can't buy anything to make up for it with the 745 points you have left.

Sir Neil · Post by **Sir Neil** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:13 am

Actually, a Large HQ is 250-500 ft in diameter. And once the villains get onboard, that character would really be in trouble. But a normal person controlling a super HQ trying to hold off invaders until the actual heroes arrive might make a pretty good story. Unless Mr. Terrific is one of the invaders, then they're just screwed.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 10:38 am

Ah, missed that difference. So you get 3 equipment points for reducing it's size to "Structural Fine/Character Large", meaning you have a decent chasis for all of 2 equipment points, or less than a feat."

Korwin · Post by **Korwin** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:22 am

I had an BBEG (who tried to Look like an good Guy) with,
Regeneration dead (final dead condition all duplicates must be dead) + reincarnate and duplicate permanent (Need an fresh corpse) + heroic extra + extra duplicate progression.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 4:04 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:Ah, missed that difference. So you get 3 equipment points for reducing it's size to "Structural Fine/Character Large", meaning you have a decent chasis for all of 2 equipment points, or less than a feat."

You'll have to get a few other features to prevent the HQ from still being invaded or your character getting mind-controlled while inside the ball (sense dependent mind control, any who see the villain get mind-raped) or something to that effect. I'm fairly certain that you can do something with all of those points though. However, one flaw with this design is that no power can exceed rank 10, which makes it susceptible to higher end Nullify, especially since it's only an object.

I'm not sure why I'm bothering to find other 'weaknesses' though, it and your Bob-omb strategy fit the bill for veto.

ADDENDUM: The minion mechanics are generally fairly iffy, and HQ will break quickly if you use them for something other than an actual headquarters; making it mobile starts entering the realm of being a vehicle which follows its own pricing scheme.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 7:24 pm

virgil wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:Ah, missed that difference. So you get 3 equipment points for reducing it's size to "Structural Fine/Character Large", meaning you have a decent chasis for all of 2 equipment points, or less than a feat."
You'll have to get a few other features to prevent the HQ from still being invaded or your character getting mind-controlled while inside the ball (sense dependent mind control, any who see the villain get mind-raped) or something to that effect. I'm fairly certain that you can do something with all of those points though. However, one flaw with this design is that no power can exceed rank 10, which makes it susceptible to higher end Nullify, especially since it's only an object.

Well, can't exceed the power level.
Unless you just make everything devices. Then you have discrete sets of 50 point arrays to work with that have no power rank cap.

I'm not sure why I'm bothering to find other 'weaknesses' though, it and your Bob-omb strategy fit the bill for veto.

Yeah, I said that, I'm just pointing them out.

Almaz · Post by **Almaz** » Sat Apr 30, 2011 8:43 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:So, thread necro.
In building for the quick shot villain game my friend is running for us, I found a couple break points that require gentleman's agreement/Oberoni intervention.
1) PL 10 game. Summon Minion (Horde, Progression 10 for 1000 minions),
Minion: Bob-omb Imp- total trade off toughness to save DC bonus
Feats: Ultimate Effort, Luck
Shrink 16 (Fine size)
Blast (Area-Burst, Progression 54) 20

Summon 1000 Bob-omb Imps in a single 5' cube of space, tell them to all go off. You have just subjected everything in the universe to 1000 simultaneous Toughness saves at DC 30. (3 steps on Time and Progression table equal one step on Extended Range for numbers so you can figure out stellar relative distances).

You cannot trade off toughness into damage. Your imps cannot do more than 10 damage at PL 10 using a basic area attack, period.

For HQ or even vehicle rules abuse, the MC is explicitly allowed to simply say equipment stops working, jams, etc. every time it is used. This includes HQs. It also is stated several times in the books that HQs are capped at PL if it is truly important. This includes equipment and devices. Indeed the fact that their powers aren't given stats, for HQs means, basically, that they are subject to whimsy.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun May 01, 2011 8:50 am

Almaz wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:So, thread necro.
In building for the quick shot villain game my friend is running for us, I found a couple break points that require gentleman's agreement/Oberoni intervention.
1) PL 10 game. Summon Minion (Horde, Progression 10 for 1000 minions),
Minion: Bob-omb Imp- total trade off toughness to save DC bonus
Feats: Ultimate Effort, Luck
Shrink 16 (Fine size)
Blast (Area-Burst, Progression 54) 20

Summon 1000 Bob-omb Imps in a single 5' cube of space, tell them to all go off. You have just subjected everything in the universe to 1000 simultaneous Toughness saves at DC 30. (3 steps on Time and Progression table equal one step on Extended Range for numbers so you can figure out stellar relative distances).
You cannot trade off toughness into damage. Your imps cannot do more than 10 damage at PL 10 using a basic area attack, period.

Typo on my part, you trade off attack roll for Save DC bonus. So, yes, they can, I just said the wrong stat.

For HQ or even vehicle rules abuse, the MC is explicitly allowed to simply say equipment stops working, jams, etc. every time it is used. This includes HQs. It also is stated several times in the books that HQs are capped at PL if it is truly important. This includes equipment and devices. Indeed the fact that their powers aren't given stats, for HQs means, basically, that they are subject to whimsy.

Uh, yes, HQ powers are given stats.

Mutants and Masterminds, Chapter 7: Devices and Equipment, Head Quarters, Features wrote: POWER
A headquarters can be given any appropriate power as a feature with the
Gamemaster’s approval. The power cannot have a total cost greater than twice the campaign’s power level or a rank greater than the power level. Powers are assumed to affect either the headquarters itself or its occupants, if they do both, they count as two features.

mean_liar · Post by **mean_liar** » Sun May 01, 2011 1:51 pm

Pointing out that you can make fucked-up characters and powers in an open-ended system like HERO or MnM is pretty goddamn pointless.

Yes, you totally can.

That's those systems' main problem, in that it takes a savvy GM or cooperative group to make sure characters are on par with each other and the general power level and tone of the game from the get-go.

Almaz · Post by **Almaz** » Sun May 01, 2011 7:02 pm

Prak_Anima wrote: Typo on my part, you trade off attack roll for Save DC bonus. So, yes, they can, I just said the wrong stat.

Doesn't work on attacks that don't use attack rolls. This has been brought up time and time again.

Prak_Anima wrote: Uh, yes, HQ powers are given stats.
Mutants and Masterminds, Chapter 7: Devices and Equipment, Head Quarters, Features wrote: POWER
A headquarters can be given any appropriate power as a feature with the
Gamemaster’s approval. The power cannot have a total cost greater than twice the campaign’s power level or a rank greater than the power level. Powers are assumed to affect either the headquarters itself or its occupants, if they do both, they count as two features.

Interesting. I don't ever recall reading that line, but it might be that my eyes just glazed over when I read "GM approval" which is exactly the big problem here still. Congratulations, you have a power conditional entirely on GM approval that can't extend beyond the HQ premises, and your entire thing can still be no-save destroyed with a wave of a hand - that isn't even fudging the rules, or being unfair to you, or referee wank - it is in fact a rule that anything bought through Equipment fucks up all the time and is unreliable compared to powers.

You seem to be missing the point that the stats of anything in a HQ are basically reduced to a Mother May I Even Use The Printed Values? game. If you want a power you can rely on, you buy it as an actual power. If you buy an obviously broken power, then the referee just throws you out of the game. Or everything you do gets Nullified all the time.