[3.Tomefinder] Beer & Pretzels PbP Recruiting

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:40 am

The Staff rules also say that you're supposed to pick from the Cleric and Wizard lists for the spells put into almost all Staves unless they're mega-special staves that you can only make one of as your masterpiece per level, so... I mean not that you never could get Magic Missile as a cantrip and then also add in Darkness as a cantrip, but normally they're level 1 and 2 respectively on the Wizard list.

Most of the Staff stuff seems like it gets fixed up if you just use normal spell levels. The Fire Mage could also just pick up a Staff of Fireballs if they want early fireballs I guess.

Edit: I suppose I should say that Red Rob's system of "all magic items have a single price based on category" is kinda... generalized to the point of lacking. I liked the idea of basic things being 1k and expensive stuff being 5k and the really big stuff being 10k and then later you get into items that are worth like 150k that you make with wish materials. "Raw Chaos" has a market value of 200k, if there's not any items that are valued at even close to that it seems dumb since you can't spend part of a raw chaos since you either have it or you don't.

I would prefer to see individualized prices on magical effects, but since I haven't written out my own list of stuff yet (though I'm getting to it) I can't complain too much I guess.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:21 am

On Darkness: I took that off the staff since I have a cloak that can do it at will already (and apparently also gives me a numeric bonus on something. Didn't realize that)

On staves and wands:

Red Rob, Wands and Staves wrote:A staff casts using your Caster level and casting stat bonuses, as if you were casting the spell.

While a Vanilla D&D wand or staff acts much more like a spell cast by the creator on a stick, Red Rob's seem much more like Allocated Mage Funds, or Magic Batteries that only work for a set number of spells. They use your stat and caster level, so it really seems like they are more of extra slots for casters to use to cast spells they already could, especially since they have to be able to cast the spell to begin with (a 3rd level wizard, for example, could not benefit from a wand of fireball, because it's a third level wizard spell). That said, I don't find it unreasonable to be able to find a staff made by a War Mage, or even to say that staves kind of rely on your actual spell list, so if a wizard picked up Tek's staff, the magic missile would take a charge and the fireball would take three (though I can certainly see how completely unfair that would be). Tek can't even fire unlimited fireballs from the staff, he can only fire off five in a day from it and that's not even ambiguous:

A Staff requires a standard action to activate the spell effect, and consumes a number of charges equal to the spell level of the spell used.

Even if we go strictly by the Wizard spell list, Tek can fire off three per day, plus being able to cast another four all on his own. And I'll point out that those fireballs are only doing 2d8. Albeit, 2d8 in a 20 ft radius, but the save DC is also only 16.

The argument that wands and staves should use the Wiz and Clr lists for spell level is a fair one, but there's nothing saying either way in the write up, and I honestly think they should use, at least, the user's spell list to determine spell level, not the creator's, since everything else "checks" the user, not the creator. The only thing that relies on Wiz and Clr lists is what spells can be put in a wand or staff without being a masterpiece, and that could just as easily be a "these are the spells we best understand how to put into wands and staves"

Edit: I have a compromise to propose: What if something about staves means that the magic missile only auto-hits with the expenditure of a charge, and if I want to fire a magic missile without expending that charge, I have to make an attack roll. The auto-hit nature of MM seems to be the sticking point on this.

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:39 am

I had to go here
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=354304#354304
then here
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=354307#354307
then here
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=285813#285813
then scroll way down to read the Red Rob Wand/Staff rules.

Nonstandard Spells
Spell effects for Staves must as a default come from the PHB Cleric or Wizard spell list. Divine spellcasters can choose spells from the Cleric list whilst Arcane spellcasters create items with spell effects from the Wizard list. Spells from other sources can be used, however an item containing these spells is always a Masterpiece item, and may not be attempted if you have already created a Masterpiece this level. The reason for this is that whilst the spells available from non-core sources may not be more directly powerful than those in the PHB, there are so many of them that it is a lot harder to keep track of all the possibly broken interactions. By ensuring only a few items using these spells will be available it minimises the potential for broken items.

Yes, it says that to use any spells not on the Cleric or Wizard list you have to get a masterpiece staff, and I think that should clearly be included to mean things at non-normal spell levels as well. I get Tongues as a first level spell instead of 3rd, but if it was in a staff, particularly one that I hadn't created myself, then I would entirely expect it to count as 3rd level when part of the staff.

Now, say all you want about Class Features and Feats needing to be powerful, and I'll back you up. Magic Items, however, are not things that I'm so inclined to trust. I mean that's what your own spell slots are also for, after all.

If you want to jot down a feat that says "I'm a frekkin mage and I get Eldritch Blast too" then I'll upvote that feat. We even get way more feats than normal so you're at no major loss in the long run or anything. You can even retrain it to some other feat later on if you decide it's not an ability you feel is important (like I plan to do with Color Spray).

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:10 am

I'm kind of waiting to see other peoples' reactions to the case I presented, but I just noticed that Red Rob posted this yesterday:

Red_Rob wrote: Wands:
A wand is a wizard's equivalent of a magical weapon. As such they are instantly attuned by being wielded, and can be unattuned at will providing none of their effects are currently ongoing. A wand provides a number of Spell Like Abilities that can be activated by the wielder as a Standard Action. In order to activate a Wand ability the wielder's Character Level must equal the required level, and the Trigger Spell must be on their class spell list.

EXAMPLE LESSER WAND:
Wand of Fire
Abilities:
Char Level 1
Trigger Spell: Burning Hands
Effect: A bolt of flame shoots out to strike one target within Short Range. Treat this as a Ranged Touch Attack dealing D6 Fire damage/level. The target must make a Ref Save or they are set On Fire.

Char Level 5
Trigger Spell: Fireball
Effect: A blast of flames shoots out to Medium Range. Treat this as a 10' burst dealing D6 Fire damage/level to each target within the area. Each target may make a Ref Save to halve the damage taken.

I would actually be perfectly ok with switching the staff I wrote up in my previous post with this wand. It still gets me an at will d6 attack that's more reliable for me than a crossbow, and in a couple levels I can sort of at will fireball.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:10 am

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 5:14 am

I approve of said wand

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:32 am

Okay, a few notes on the Staff / Wand debate:

[*] Designers intent was that you have to use the Wizard / Cleric spell list for spell effects and levels, precisely to stop dumpster-diving through alternative class lists for lower level spells and effects. Although, rad's game, rad's rules.

[*] I admit I never specified but the intention was that any spell takes a minimum of 1 charge.

[*] The section stating it uses your stats "as if you were casting the spell" is intended to convey that you are not casting the spell, and therefore abilities that trigger from or modify spells you cast do not work on Staff spells.

[*] I am aware that Staves as currently presented are probably more powerful than other items of their level. In addition the way the additional spell rule works out it is rarely worth getting a Wand over a Staff. This was part of the impetus for me rewriting these items, which I am currently in the process of doing. That being said, Prak is being nice and not trying to abuse it as he is picking spells like Magic Missile and Fireball rather than Sleep and Glitterdust , so I would be inclined to give him a break.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:30 am

So what do people think of something like this:

Thrifty Mage[Reserve]
You know how to spend your energy in a way that lasts.
Thrifty Mage is a spellcasting feat which scales to your unmodified caster level
0: You may fire a ray of magical energy which deals 1d6 untyped damage (overcomes no DRs, but there are no immunities or resistances to generic damage) as a standard action. This is a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 60'.
1: While you have a spell of first level or higher prepared and uncast, or a first level or higher spell slot available as a spontaneous caster, you may take a standard action to release a ray of magical energy. This ray may do a d6/highest available spell level of the same untyped damage as above, or, you may deal energy damage matching an energy descriptor of a spell you have available to cast, but the damage dice rely on the spell level of that spell (so a 3rd level wizard who only has first level fire spells can do 2d6 untyped, or 1d6 fire). This attack has a Close range.
6: (maybe academic reserve below)
11: Your attack from CL 1 may take the form of a Cone (5'/spell level), Line or Burst (10'/spell level). This allows a ref save to halve damage, but the die type for damage is d8.
16: You may freely, spontaneously cast any spell in your spellbook/known to you of the same descriptor as another spell in book/known that is at least two levels below your Reserve Spell level. You may apply metamagic to these free spells as long as it doesn't increase the level of the spell to greater than (highest level spell of same descriptor-2). For example, a caster who can still cast Polar Ray (whether because it's prepared, or he knows it and has a requisite spell slot open), can freely cast Freezing Sphere. One who has Incendiary Cloud available and can heighten spells can freely cast a Heightened (lv 6) Fireball.

radthemad4 · Post by **radthemad4** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 2:59 pm

Lokathor wrote:Question: I was also unclear on the final starting equipment stuff. Red Rob said 8kgp OR 2 minor items, but 8kgp can usually buy more than 2 of the cheaper minor magic items... so what's the deal there?

Red Rob's magic items have uniform prices. Magic items from other sources cost whatever their prices are. I'm going with Two Lesser Magic Items and 8000 GP to start with. You can't benefit from more than three equipped magic items anyway yet.

Lokathor wrote:So since I already have Diplomacy and Sense Motive on my list should I pick another bonus class skill instead of Nobility (perhaps Bluff)? and instead of Planes I get Survival as a class skill? Is that how this works? All this is assuming we're even sticking with class skills as a thing.

No, my Knowledge rule doesn't give you bonus class skills. Class skills will be a thing because they work smoothly enough in Pathfinder. There's no 4X starting skills and cross class ranks cost the same. Instead, you get a +3 to your class skills. In your case, for example, if you put two ranks in Survival (not a class skill for you), using my Knowledge rule you'd also get two ranks in Knowledge (Planes) (class skill for you). This would be equivalent to having two ranks in Survival and five (2+3) ranks in Knowledge (Planes) in 3.5. However, if you put two ranks into Diplomacy, it would be equivalent to having 5 ranks in Diplomacy and 5 ranks in Knowledge (Nobility) in 3.5 as they're both class skills so they both get a +3. I promise to put up what all the Knowledge skills are linked to later on (there will be some repeats).

Prak_Anima wrote:Also, since Tek is a vampire, can we say that Create Food can create synthetic blood or something? And that Purify Food/Drink can return old or coagulated blood to fresh blood?
Edit: another question--can I choose Positive Energy as the energy type for a Dragonscale Shirt to protect me from?

No to the energy thing based on what Lokathor (and the Rules Compendium) says. Yes to the blood things.

Another thing, in Pathfinder there's no limit to how often you can cast a level 0 spell. However, metamagic on cantrips will use up higher level slots. I'm leaving the option to vote this option off for things that aren't normally cantrips for core casters, or vote it off entirely.

The Wand of Fire is fine.

Red_Rob wrote:Okay, a few notes on the Staff / Wand debate:

[*] Designers intent was that you have to use the Wizard / Cleric spell list for spell effects and levels, precisely to stop dumpster-diving through alternative class lists for lower level spells and effects. Although, rad's game, rad's rules.

This is fine with me so I'm going with this.

Red_Rob wrote:[*] I admit I never specified but the intention was that any spell takes a minimum of 1 charge.

If you guys don't vote off the unlimited cantrip casting thing, I'm fine with at will 0 level spells (as long as they're 0 level for core casters and aren't improved with metamagic).

Red_Rob wrote:[*] The section stating it uses your stats "as if you were casting the spell" is intended to convey that you are not casting the spell, and therefore abilities that trigger from or modify spells you cast do not work on Staff spells.

I'm keeping this. No meta magic on Staffs and Wands.

Red_Rob wrote:[*] I am aware that Staves as currently presented are probably more powerful than other items of their level. In addition the way the additional spell rule works out it is rarely worth getting a Wand over a Staff. This was part of the impetus for me rewriting these items, which I am currently in the process of doing. That being said, Prak is being nice and not trying to abuse it as he is picking spells like Magic Missile and Fireball rather than Sleep and Glitterdust , so I would be inclined to give him a break.

Yeah, gentlemen's agreement to not abuse this.

Red_Rob, seriously, thanks for personally dropping in to clarify things, and thanks for all the work you've done on Tome Items.

As for Thrifty Mage, I'll wait for more opinions.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 3:19 pm

@Prak: Couple problems with that feat that I can see:
Cold cone needs an action type. Earth grab needs a duration. You have two listings for Air and Air I is a bullshit bonus to attack rolls. Polymorph needs a duration.

@Everyone:
Let's assume that we go with Red_Rob's staff changes. Is it OK for my time mage to have a Staff of Hasting and Slowing for 2 item slots? Keep in mind, I already get self-Haste all day every day as a class feature, so this is pretty much only getting used to buff allies and debuff enemies.

Failing that, how about the following Wand of Time:

Level 1
Trigger Spell: Feather Fall
Effect: Target one creature or object within 60'. For the next 5 rounds, it is under the effects of feather fall. Additionally, any projectiles launched at or by that target are slowed and their damage reduced by 10 to a minimum of 0.

Level 5
Trigger Spell: Slow
Effect: Whenever you successfully Slow an enemy with a spell, SLA or other effect, you may Haste yourself or an ally for the same duration. This does not actually provide you with the ability to cast Slow; you must provide that yourself.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 4:18 pm

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:45 pm

I changed the wording on Thrifty Mage just to simplify the reading, fixed the issues Grek brought up, and specified that Elemental Exchange does not rape the feat in half.

As far as number of abilities, what if the character can prep 1 ability per day per char lv? So a first level character can have a single reserve ability each day, a 2nd can have two, etc.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:19 pm

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:31 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:As far as number of abilities, what if the character can prep 1 ability per day per char lv? So a first level character can have a single reserve ability each day, a 2nd can have two, etc.

That's still a whole lot of versatility compared to even a Combat or Skill feat.

the 0th level ray shot is fine, the 1st level ability should also do like one actual thing.

Example: If you've got a first level spell (or higher) it powers up the ray shot, and the energy tag on the spell optionally determines what kind of energy the ray does now (you can keep it as weapon damage, or use any single energy damage you've got a slot for, each attack).

And if you really wanna melt thing with blasting, this this on for size:
http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=318737

(PS: You could even be a dragonfire adept as a fey cat)

radthemad4 wrote:No, my Knowledge rule doesn't give you bonus class skills. Class skills will be a thing because they work smoothly enough in Pathfinder. There's no 4X starting skills and cross class ranks cost the same. Instead, you get a +3 to your class skills. In your case, for example, if you put two ranks in Survival (not a class skill for you), using my Knowledge rule you'd also get two ranks in Knowledge (Planes) (class skill for you). This would be equivalent to having two ranks in Survival and five (2+3) ranks in Knowledge (Planes) in 3.5. However, if you put two ranks into Diplomacy, it would be equivalent to having 5 ranks in Diplomacy and 5 ranks in Knowledge (Nobility) in 3.5 as they're both class skills so they both get a +3. I promise to put up what all the Knowledge skills are linked to later on (there will be some repeats).

Oh you didn't mean "condensed like pathfinder" you meant "the actual pathfinder skills system". Bleh to their dumb skill list. I guess.

Well I'll keep the Combat Casting [Skill] feat, and just act as though my CL+3 were my ranks for the purposes of unlocks, since Pathfinder does Concentration all weird. I assume that all other [Skill] feats would get the same treatment as necessary.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:37 pm

yeah, I was trying to condense reserve feats into a single feat, but that works better.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:16 pm

It's probably still too much, but I changed the 1st and 6th caster level benefits. I need to change the 11th CL benefit too, but I need to think on it. Apparently this feat is amazing for CL 11 Conjurers.

CL 1 is now basically "choose damage type, it does a line or a cone as appropriate, and has a minor rider"

CL 6 is now "you can use a minor version of a first level spell or cantrip at will, based on spell schools"

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:21 pm

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:29 pm

The current rewrite is to strong that it could be the core class ability of an entire base class and the class wouldn't even be weak.

Just have it do [SpellLevel]d6 damage as a standard action, no riders. Reserved spells let you pick the damage type (either it's physical damage, or you can pick an energy type).

Vote Question: "of Arrows" lesser magic property allowed on a bow/x-bow so that it makes its own arrows and just never runs out of them?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:37 pm

I upvote archers not having to play Ammo Accountant.

I took out the table for CL 1, and changed CL 11 to "now your CL 1 attack can be a line, cone or burst." CL 6's school benefits would probably be pretty killer as it's own feat, but then that leaves me with a CL 6 hole.

Edit: so, yeah, seriously, I'd take that CL 6 ability as a feat with no other abilities. So...
Academic Reserve[Reserve]
You've become so awesome at magic you can use the energy of your most powerful spells to maintain minor versions of your weakest spells.
Prerequisite: Caster Level 6
So long as you have a third level or higher spell available, you may activate an ability based on it's school. You may only benefit from one of these effects at a time. Your caster level for these effects is equal to the level of the highest level spell of the matching school. When an ability granted this way duplicates a spell, you are considered to be casting the spell for all purposes (including AoOs, abilities which change spells as they are cast, etc.) You cannot apply metamagic to these effects.


School	Ability
Abjuration	As a swift action, you may duplicate the shield spell, save that it does not block magic missiles.
Conjuration	As a full round action, you may conjure shining (or dark, whatever) armour, duplicating mage armour. You may only use this ability on yourself.
Divination	You may choose to duplicate detect magic as a free action. You may take a full round action to amplify this effect, duplicating identify, at the cost of losing access to this ability for one hour.
Enchantment	Your magic is so awesome, people are more likely to listen to you. You gain a bonus equal to the level of your highest level available Enchantment spell to Diplomacy, Bluff, and Intimidate checks.
Evocation	As a swift action, you may duplicate the effects of shocking grasp.
Illusion	As a full round action, you may duplicate the effects of disguise self.
Necromancy	As a swift action, you may manipulate negative energy with your touch. This may duplicate either disrupt undead or touch of fatigue at your option when you use it.
Transmutation	As a swift action, you may duplicate magic weapon targeting a weapon you hold.
Universal	As a swift action, you may replicate any trick you could perform with prestidigitation.

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:44 pm

Lokathor · Post by **Lokathor** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:49 pm

I don't think that it should bypass DR in "neutral" mode, that's why you'd switch to an energy type. And then energy resistance might apply. I'm of the general opinion that things shouldn't bypass both DR and energy resistance. I know that lots of effects do, but I'd rather not see more added to the world.

The "blast" version at 1st level is a 5ft blast I assume, with a reflex save? or is it still a ray with a ranged touch attack? That part isn't clear.

I'm not so sure about that free spell stuff at the end. At 16th level, unlimited 6th level spells is still kinda a big deal.

Edit:
new feat huh. let's see.

Abjuration, I guess that's alrightish, kinda strong maybe because Shield gives a +4 bonus and normal shields give less unless they're magic. I'm not too worried.
Conjuration, sure fine.
Divination, I guess free identify is alright for a 6th level feat.
Enchantment, this is a free diplomacy check no matter the DC or target. gotta change this to something else. Like make it a +SpellLevel on your next diplomacy check, or something
Evocation, sure.
Illusion, sure
Necromancy, sure
Transmutation, I'd even give this a "greater magic weapon"
Universal, sure.

Edit (to below):
"overcomes no DRs", my mistake.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:53 pm

CL 1's untyped version doesn't overcome DR. It's not a Light Ray, it's "generic damage ray, overcomes nothing." It is still a ray, sorry if I used a keyword in there.

How do you feel about unlimited fourth or fifth level spells at 16th level? What if you take a CL hit on the free spells you cast--something like free spells are cast at minimum CL, so 6th is CL 11, 5th is CL 9, etc.?

ubernoob · Post by **ubernoob** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:55 pm

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 9:56 pm

Yeah, we're honestly unlikely to breach level 7 or so.