Spells at the Wrong Spell Levels

[Parthenon]

The Astral Construct power can be found here with the actual stats here.

Its pretty complex and long winded, and you still have to either make a monster each spell or spend a while making a few monsters beforehand.

[Roy]

So, related to SM/SNA and other low level spells: would it hurt anything to make the minimum duration of a round-per-level spell be 5 rounds? In addition to the summons at 1st level, there are a lot of spells (like Grease) that just seem unusable with a caster level of 1.

Do you see that breaking anything?

I'd just add x to the duration. That way it seems as if CL matters, even if you quickly hit the point where it's long enough.

[hogarth]

The psionic (Astral Construct) approach of saying "you can summon a generic creature and you get to pick some special abilities from Menu A, B, and C" has some merit.

I do not have a Psionic's Handbook, so I have no clue what you're talking about.

You summon a generic creature and you get to pick some special abilities (from three different menus) in order to customize it.

[Vebyast]

I'm a bit late to this conversation, but one thing I've tried in the past is making the Summon spells recursively divisible. Instead of being "You can summon one monster from monster list n or 1d3+1 monsters from monster list n-1", I changed it to "You can summon one monster from monster list n or gain the benefit of 3 castings of Summon Monster n-1." Summoning 2000+ Fiendish Scorpions is a perfectly worthwhile use of Summon Monster 8, IMO.

[Kaelik]

The psionic (Astral Construct) approach of saying "you can summon a generic creature and you get to pick some special abilities from Menu A, B, and C" has some merit.

I do not have a Psionic's Handbook, so I have no clue what you're talking about.

What about summoning a level appropriate (Caster's CR-2) True Fiend and selecting its abilities. The only problem I see with that is that you have to stop and make a character every time you cast the spell.

Is there a way around that?

Would this work at all?

Game On,
fbmf

1) It's infinitely more versatile than any other spell. For starters, you can summon a character, who as their action can cast an sla of highest spell level -1.

So that's a level 1 spell just giving you disintegrate in addition to all sorts of other stuff, including actions next round.

2) CR -2 is fine for a cohort you can only ever have one of, you actually want to protect, and you probably shouldn't even have one of. It is not fine for the use of spell. It needs to be CR spell level or spell level X1.5 at the highest.

3) If you want summon X to not suck, look at the Summoner, one perma cohort of low level per day, and then other spells cost spell slots for relatively short duration additional minions. So you can have one badger all the time at level 1, but if you want two badgers, you have to spend a full round getting the second one, and you have to do it again each combat.

[Blicero]

The psionic (Astral Construct) approach of saying "you can summon a generic creature and you get to pick some special abilities from Menu A, B, and C" has some merit.

I do not have a Psionic's Handbook, so I have no clue what you're talking about.

What about summoning a level appropriate (Caster's CR-2) True Fiend and selecting its abilities. The only problem I see with that is that you have to stop and make a character every time you cast the spell.

Is there a way around that?

Would this work at all?

Game On,
fbmf

If you're going to be able to summon more than one thing at a time, (CR-2) is too high. (CR-3) or maybe (CR-4) would probz work better.

An option to decrease time would be to have a specific number of True Fiends available that don't change.

So, say, upon learning Summon Monster V at level 9, you build three or four level 6 True Fiends (or Fiendish Brutes or whatever), and those are your options every time you cast the spell. Summoning them out of combat would give you a chance to name them and give them equipment... etc.

That could work.

[Kaelik]

It's like no one but me even reads the Tome of Fiends.

There is actually a feat in Tome of Fiends (ie invest actual character resources in it, because if you don't, it's too fucking powerful) to summon a fiend of CR spell levelx2-1 that you know the True Name of with a Summon spell.

So not, any possible CR, but instead specific ones, that you already invested character resources in acquiring, both the feat, and getting the True Name.

I had a Summoner who used Repeat Spell + this feat to have his summoned cohort be a pair of Ice devil brothers. That guy was overpowered.

[Koumei]

In one of the random 3.X books (one of the Planar ones) there is a bullshit feat that lets you customise your summon lists, with guidelines for the Type/Subtype and CRs. Even using that, and using same CRs as the basic lists, the game breaks.

Like, seriously breaks. As in, get a Violet Crumble, dip it in liquid nitrogen, then shoot it with a howitzer.

[Archmage]

In one of the random 3.X books (one of the Planar ones) there is a bullshit feat that lets you customise your summon lists, with guidelines for the Type/Subtype and CRs. Even using that, and using same CRs as the basic lists, the game breaks.

Like, seriously breaks. As in, get a Violet Crumble, dip it in liquid nitrogen, then shoot it with a howitzer.

Planar Handbook. Also some of the monster manuals. They're not feats, though--it's "you can swap creature X for creature Y on summon monster Z."

The most egregiously overpowered example is being able to summon creatures with the vivacious template--they shoot positive energy rays as a ranged touch attack, and these grant HP to living creatures. However, creatures who are "overhealed" beyond max HP continue to gain hit points (as though on a positive-dominant plane) and must make a Fort save (DC 20) every round their current HP exceeds their maximum or explode in a shower of energy.

It increases the spell's level by 1, but I'll gladly spend slots on summon monster II to call flying owls with positive energy rays that inevitably kill any non-undead creature unless they know that the counter to the attack is injuring themselves.

[Kaelik]

There is also a design your own feat in Dragon.

[Koumei]

unless they know that the counter to the attack is injuring themselves.

Also known as the emo defence.

[fbmf]

Tangent to OP, but...

The Church Inquisitor PrC gave out immunity to charms at one point, and immunity to compulsions later on. Is that ever a level appropriate ability?

Seems to me putting Enchanters completely out of a job at any level is a little (or a lot) over the top.

Game On,
fbmf

[fectin]

Tangent to OP, but...

The Church Inquisitor PrC gave out immunity to charms at one point, and immunity to compulsions later on. Is that ever a level appropriate ability?

Seems to me putting Enchanters completely out of a job at any level is a little (or a lot) over the top.

Game On,
fbmf

Protection from _____ does (mostly) the same thing. Having it always on is a good ability, but shouldn't uniquely mess with much.

[CatharzGodfoot]

Tangent to OP, but...

The Church Inquisitor PrC gave out immunity to charms at one point, and immunity to compulsions later on. Is that ever a level appropriate ability?

Seems to me putting Enchanters completely out of a job at any level is a little (or a lot) over the top.

An enchanter can still go dominate a bevy of bugbears or a gaggle of gorgons and then stomp all over the Inquisitor.

[RobbyPants]

Well, Mind Blank does the same thing, although it's a high level spell. Still, that doesn't stop others from getting it early from various sources. IIRC, a necropolitan gets it merely for being undead (level 3 or 4), and a dread necromancer can take a ghostly visage familiar at level 7 and get it as well.

Edit: they don't get Mind Bank per se, but rather immunity to [Mind Affecting] spells/effects.

[A Man In Black]

Summoning 2000+ Fiendish Scorpions is a perfectly worthwhile use of Summon Monster 8, IMO.

"So what are you doing this round, Bob?"

"Well, I'll take a 5' step out of melee and then cast 'Bog the Game Down to Unplayability', Jim."

[Vebyast]

Summoning 2000+ Fiendish Scorpions is a perfectly worthwhile use of Summon Monster 8, IMO.

"So what are you doing this round, Bob?"

"Well, I'll take a 5' step out of melee and then cast 'Bog the Game Down to Unplayability', Jim."

That would be the case if you tried to run them individually. In our case we just said "Well, if we assume that only natural 20's hit, then, probabilistically speaking, the scorpions should get about 100 hits.".

[fectin]

Summoning 2000+ Fiendish Scorpions is a perfectly worthwhile use of Summon Monster 8, IMO.

"So what are you doing this round, Bob?"

"Well, I'll take a 5' step out of melee and then cast 'Bog the Game Down to Unplayability', Jim."

That seems like a very difficult way to cast Summon Swarm.

[JonSetanta]

The psionic (Astral Construct) approach of saying "you can summon a generic creature and you get to pick some special abilities from Menu A, B, and C" has some merit.

I do not have a Psionic's Handbook, so I have no clue what you're talking about.

It's free.
http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org ... -construct