Cheese me a druid.

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Lago_AM3P
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Cheese me a druid.

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Okay, assume you're playing on a 3.5E game that:

Does not allow elemental wildshaping cheese.
Does not have access to the Book of Exalted Deeds.
Does not have spells from Masters of the Wild or DotF or whatever.

Or, rather, a mostly core game. Let's see some of that old timey cheese. I haven't seen a lot of druid cheese that doesn't assume that the DM won't use rule zero / give infinite power. So, yeah.
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fbmf
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Re: Cheese me a druid.

Post by fbmf »

This was over at Nifty:

Essence wrote:
Yeah, it's easy.

Gnomish Druid

Stats: max Con and Wis
Feats: Improved Unarmed Strike (1st), Quick Draw (3rd).
Skills: whatever.

Spells:
1st: Entangle, Shillelagh, Cure Light Wounds
2nd: Charm Person or Animal, Flaming Sphere
3rd: Summon Nature's Ally III (Thoqqua)

Animal Companion: Lion.

Equipment: One club (free), one sling (free), a longspear, some armor.


This character has three basic "tactics" - in theory, one for each fight in a day if the DM even kinda goes by the guidelines in the DMG.

In one fight, cast Entangle, and summon a Thoqqua. The Thoqqua can burrow under the plants and attack the entangled victims very handily, doing 1d6+3+2d6+1d4 damage (1d6+3 slam and 2d6+1d4 fire). The victims have to make a Reflex save to avoid catching fire (which is very hard when you're entangled). Meanwhile, you approach the edge of the entangle area and attack in at people with your longspear or sling.

In one fight, cast Shillelagh on your cugdel and use your Longspear. Anyone closing on you gets an AoO from you, and then has to deal with your (superior) weapon once they get there (because of Quick Draw). Train your Lion companion to Bull Rush opponents back outside of your reach then retreat. You get an AoO with your Shillelagh as the Lion moves them, and then you get to regain the use of your Longspear.

In one fight, cast Flaming Sphere, then Wildshape into a Leopard. Use MEAs to manipulate the Sphere, then make Partial Charges to activate Pounce and make your bite/claw/claw/rake/rake attack sequence. Train your Lion companion to flank with you, and use the Sphere to protect him from would-be assailants.

That leaves you with a Cure Light Wounds to play bandaid with, and a Charm Person or Animal as a path to a nonviolent solution. In addition, the character is set up for wonderful Druid cheese later in life with Unarmed Strike and the way it interacts with Natural Attacks.


Keep in mind it was written in 3.0, so you may need to make alterations.

Game On,
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Jack_Lurch
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Re: Cheese me a druid.

Post by Jack_Lurch »

I don't think IUS make interacts with natural attacks anymore, but I could be wrong.

Lago, is this 3.5 or 3.0 or some unsavory combination of both?

-Jack
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Re: Cheese me a druid.

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I'm still wondering why this druid took IUS in the first place, he doesn't attack unarmed in any of the three routines listed.

Besides, core rules still allow various shapechange cheese, and free karma beads, all 3.5 core. The combo that Ess made up is simply effective, not cheesey, by my standards.
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da_chicken
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Re: Cheese me a druid.

Post by da_chicken »

Probably because it was never clear that Wild Shaped druids were proficient with natural weapons in 3.0.
Username17
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Re: Cheese me a druid.

Post by Username17 »

As of 3.5 you don't get to keep your Con Bonus to hit points when transformed. So being a Gnome has gone from "awesome" to "suck". Now you want to be a Gray Elf, because weapon proficiencies carry over for Druids, and only mental bonuses count when transformed.

So you'll be using a long bow or a longsword when you are not transformed, and your teeth and claws when you are.

IUS while wildshaped is a very sticky situation, the 3.5 rulesset directly contrdicts itself as to whether you are using the animal's attack routine or an unarmed strike routine which does as much damage as the requisite natural attacks. The most onerous interpretation is that you are using an unarmed attack routine (in which case you should transform into a Dire Wolf as soon as possible), the most generous is that you are simultaneously using the natural attack routine and an unarmed attack routine that does full damage and which does not provoke attacks of opportunity (in which case the Giant Octopus is looking pretty sexy).

Regardless, Core Rules Only you can Wildshape into a Tiger (gaining the extraordinary special attack of Pounce), and then Shapechange into a Marilith - keeping the Pounce Ability and attacking many times without penalty at the end of charges).

At lower levels, take advantage of the Wolf/Trip Loop. If you have "Improved Trip" and happen to be a Wolf, then every time you hit with your bite you get to make a Trip check (note that people who are prone already must still make Trip checks, in the same manner as people who have succumbed to Glitter Dust must still make saves against Cause Blindness if they are targetted by it), and every time you win a Trip check you get to make an immediate Bite attack. So long as you keep winning those opposed checks and hitting with your bite (remember that a natural 1 always misses), there is no principled upper bound to the number of times you can hit any opponent in a round. Indeed, remember that dead people are helpless, and always fail opposed checks, so being a Wolf with Improved Trip essentially gives you all of the benefits of having Great Cleave as well for free (and yes, it does stack for two extra attacks if you drop an opponent with your bite if you have Improved Trip and Great Cleave). Take additional delight in the fact that for some unknowable reason, standing up provokes an attack of opportunity, meaning that rolling a 1 doesn't necessarily mean that your infinite combo of death has to stop until after they get a chance to take a swing at you...

At higher levels, who cares? Shapechange still stacks abilities with wildshape, but it also gives you unlimited wealth and power all by itself by transforming you into into a greater barghest or balor or whatever.

At medium level, you have the ability to transform yourself into animal type - which means that you can be subjected to animal spells. That means that you can target yourself with Animal Growth (explicitly and intentionally), and even Awaken (completely broken).

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Lago_AM3P
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Re: Cheese me a druid.

Post by Lago_AM3P »

Okay. How do order of operations works for spells, anyway?

Like you've got a wizard or a druid; first you cast polymorph any object or shapechange or what-have-you so that you get the animal subtype, and then you cast animal growth. Then you change your form back into something else. Do you get to keep the enlargement bonuses, EVEN IF THE FORM YOU CHOSE IS SMALLER?

If so, Eldritch Knight, between arcane strike and magic jar, is starting to look pretty sexy.
Username17
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Re: Cheese me a druid.

Post by Username17 »

Do you get to keep the enlargement bonuses, EVEN IF THE FORM YOU CHOSE IS SMALLER?


Yes and no.

Animal Growth is an ongoing effect which makes you larger. Once cast, it does not require that the creature continuously be an appropriate target (which is why it does not shut itsrlf off when cast on Gargantuan animals) - but its effect of making you one size larger is continuously in effect.

So if you Wildshape into a badger, then Animal Growth yourself, then end the Wildshape - the animal growth has not ended - so you are still one size category larger than normal, still have a +8 size bonus to strength, etc. And if you then Wildshape yourself into a Plant - you are still bigger than normal and have the extra natural armor and such. All until the spell ends "normally" one minute per level from now.

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Sir Neil
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Re: Cheese me a druid.

Post by Sir Neil »

FrankTrollman wrote:At lower levels, take advantage of the Wolf/Trip Loop.

What happens when a behir is the target?
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Re: Cheese me a druid.

Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Then you lose absolutely nothing.

the wolf's trip ability does not allow the other thing to trip you, even if you fail.

But you might get lucky and trip it, but if not, you don't really lose out on anything by trying.
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