Setting Design: Dracula

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:04 pm

So instead of holy water, you stock up on Germ-X?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:13 pm

Cuthbert's symbol should also work, I just couldn't get the one image I found to show up. You also didn't, originally, say anything about right angles.

maxus wrote:So instead of holy water, you stock up on Germ-X?

behold the new vampire hunter:

FrankTrollman wrote:Chaos Undivided, X-Men, and Kord yes. I think the other symbols fail to have lines meeting at right angles in a circle. The Bad Religion symbol, the Camarilla symbol, Prince's symbol, and the Nazi flag are interesting test cases because they have right angles and a circle, but the lines don't get from the center to the outside. Definitely be interesting to see if those worked. But yeah, pretty much.

honestly, Frank, if I were to play in a game with vampires in it run by you, I would run a series of characters that would use each of those symbols, just for the hell of it. Probably starting with a nazi because that's the most outrageous, and probably second most... absurd.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:28 pm

Garlic is also known as a natural pesticide, and I believe I've heard of it largely being a deterrant for the animal-kingdom (humans being one of the very few exceptions in terms of enjoying it), and may even be toxic to dogs. Since Dracula has the ability to turn into an animal (especially a dog), maybe it smells that bad to him.

Oh, and like aspirin, garlic thins blood; not sure if that matters.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:30 pm

If Dracula's ability to turn into animals makes him more animal-ish, then we need to add Steve Irwin to the list of vampire hunters....

also, if you could get her to lie down on a circle, Harley Quin's outfit might repel Dracula... some interesting implications there for the times that batman's become a vampire...

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:37 pm

Prak_Anima wrote:If Dracula's ability to turn into animals makes him more animal-ish, then we need to add Steve Irwin to the list of vampire hunters....

"Croikey, isn't he a beauty? He's a mean one, I'll give him that, though. Look at how he's snappin' 'is teeth at me. Terry, get me a stick!"

Roy · Post by **Roy** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:17 pm

Maxus wrote:
Prak_Anima wrote:If Dracula's ability to turn into animals makes him more animal-ish, then we need to add Steve Irwin to the list of vampire hunters....
"Croikey, isn't he a beauty? He's a mean one, I'll give him that, though. Look at how he's snappin' 'is teeth at me. Terry, get me a stick!"

We have a winner.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:42 pm

I rather liked it, myself.

Especially the fact that a pointy stick might indeed be very good against a vampire...

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 9:48 pm

Now if only we could remember what a pointy stick is called.

A steak? No, that's not it...

To discuss the topic in general:

We can have a legitimate discussion on whether or not a Star of David is as useful as a cross.

We cannot have a legitimate discussion if vampires ONLY fear crosses and communion wafers.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 11:44 pm

Hell, honestly, unless Dracula was cursed by Jesus (as opposed to God), the Star of David should work as well, or almost as well, as a cross, since they're from two different traditions of what is, essentially, the same religion. Same could be said for the Inverted cross (St Peter's cross), and to an opposite effect, a pentacle or any of the Goeth demon sigils.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:01 am

I'd go for that. By the same logic, so would the Islamic holy symbol.

Again, God is more or less the same guy.

I am not sure about the pentacles or Goeth demon sigils (not arguing, I just don't know enough on them).

That still leaves Buddhists, for instance, looking for other things than holy symbols. This may not be a bad thing, since other things than crosses do work on Dracula.

koz · Post by **koz** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:01 am

Prak_Anima wrote:Hell, honestly, unless Dracula was cursed by Jesus (as opposed to God), the Star of David should work as well, or almost as well, as a cross, since they're from two different traditions of what is, essentially, the same religion. Same could be said for the Inverted cross (St Peter's cross), and to an opposite effect, a pentacle or any of the Goeth demon sigils.

Islam too, for the record.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:09 am

well, I didn't include Islam because it's an offshoot amalgamation of christianity/judaism and arabic paganism and wasn't "endorsed by god"
....well, unless the dm decided it was, I suppose...

Inverted cross is, by all rights, a christian symbol, When Peter was to be executed they were going to crucify him, and, out of respect for his teacher, he asked to be crucified upside down, so as to not imitate Jesus. An inverted cross should work just fine, and, as one of the first symbols to be considered for Christianity was a pentacle, that should also work (maybe).

Going the other way, if God exists and crosses and all that shit works, then, ideally, a person should be able to use satanic symbols to "rebuke" vampires.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 12:30 am

Again and still, that's only if the divine intent actually matters rather than the symbols themselves having power. Which frankly, is unworkable. Having to go back and check to see whether a particular cross was a "real" crucifix representing Jesus or just a right angle is completely insane. You can't play a game in such a setting, because there's no way for the players to know whether any particular thing that looks like two crossed lines on a circle is a solar cross or a solstice wheel. There's no way to know, because they are literally the same symbol - just one is Christian and the other is not.

That's the kind of system that only works in D&D, not in Survival Horror. Holy Symbols are made by clerics with Craft, they cost 5 gold pieces, and they can only be properly used by Clerics. It's totally bullshit for Survival Horror, and unworthy of consideration to model Gothic novels.

So the answer on the Star of David is that whether or not two triangles inscribed oppositely on a circle has some use or another against the supernatural, it wouldn't have the same effect as a cross or a medicine wheel, because it is different symbol. It looks like the kind of thing that probably is magic if magic symbols work at all - but it most definitely doesn't do the same as two lines crossing a circle at right angles.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:11 am

So really we might as well use the truth faith model, is what you're saying. Because otherwise... your system, where random assortments of lines and circles have metaphysical power over evil, is absurd. It can work perfectly fine, I'm sure, but it's just fucking ridiculous. I'd much rather the silliness of "I believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster and his noodly appendage protects me" being invoked while a character throws a bowl of pasta at Dracula then "I take off a bracelet and hold two fingers in a cross shape overit and thus fend off the vampire with my geometry!"

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:19 am

Seconded. At least with the spaghetti monster we still have the idea that being faithful isn't exclusively Pyschological Limitation: Delusional.

Even without it being random, the idea that making a t with my fingers over a bracelet counts as supernatural, but an aquilia pendant does not, is probably not the kind of weird.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:26 am

I suppose I should point out that my preference in this matter probably ties to my taste in gaming style. I prefer the Big Damn Heroes, Smash Down the Door and Kick Some Ass style of play, which is encouraged, at least somewhat, by the True Faith model, since anyone can have a holy weapon to use against Dracula, some people just use physics text books while others are using swords inscribed with their religion's symbols.

I'm not fond of survival horror. When I watch a horror movie, I'm rooting for the monster because they're usually the most intelligent character who has the highest logical chance of survival and attainment of it's goals, while the humans can't don't a damned thing. War o/t Worlds was very unsatisfying for me because humanity didn't do shit, even when the martians came out of their war machines, the humans did fuck all. I prefer action movies, I prefer "horror" movies that involve fighting back, I do not like having to run from a threat that with some strategy, skill and luck I could probably defeat.

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 1:30 am

I have mixed feelings. I don't mind if the best we can do is give a good account for ourselves to some extent.

But I do mind if said "good account" doesn't matter.

If the human race sacrificing itself makes the Invaders give pause, that's okay, sorta-kinda.

But if we can't even get that, then fuck it. There's no point in a gallant death when all you can say is "I died and I wasn't having fun at the time."

But I would prefer to have a chance, however small, and at whatever cost, of an actual victory.

If not by the PCs, with the aid of their efforts.

"Nothing you do matters. You can't even delay the inevitable, because nothing you can do will alter the "stars being right" or not." is probably not what is intended here, fortunately.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 2:56 am

Prak_Anima wrote:well, I didn't include Islam because it's an offshoot amalgamation of christianity/judaism and arabic paganism and wasn't "endorsed by god"

That's not terribly different from the Jews' situation in Catholic Europe back then.

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:36 am

I could get behind the idea that lines intersecting at right angles and circles of grain have effect on vampires because they are simply magical symbols which repel vampires. There are a few things that need to be decided on if that's the setup that's is used:

Can a vampire walk through the intersection of a pair of streets meeting at a 90 degree angle? What happens if he is in a car going through such an intersection?

Does a peice of paper with the letter X on it repeal vampires? What hapens if they read a word with an X in it?

Can you make a cross with your fingers and have that work? Does it only work if you get the fingers in just the right spot so that it is at a perfect 90 degree angle?

Does a hexagram (AKA Star of David) do anything? If so, what?

Does the Islamic Star and Cresent do anything? Again, what?

Pentagrams? What if you are standing in the middle of one?

Does holy water work? If so, why? Does splashing clean, but non-blessed water work? What about dirty water? Spit? Blood?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 3:45 am

I'm fine with having double bisected circles be the proper bane. In a way, yes, it's a form of True Faith. But it does not strictly require Christianity's faith, because the basic shape exists in sufficiently large RL religions for Christianity to not be assumed the true one.

As for the Star of David doing stuff, I'm tempted to have a hexagram connected to a circle work not as a ward, but as a form of control in magical traditions for the setting; and would be of significance with islamic, jewish, christian, hindu, buddhism, jainism, & the occult. Not sure what I would do with it just yet, but it's something to put on the table for later use.

Things would start turning too weird & off-genre if I start trying to decide which singular property exists within garlic for warding purposes, rather than the entire plant be required. There's no confusing garlic for onions like there is a crucifix for a sunwheel or a celtic cross.

For established magical traditions in Gothic Horror that can see use in most faiths, we have fortune-telling, animal control & transformation, hypnotism (clinical and evil-eye), and weather magic. I'm not quite certain what the more common element is for some of this magic across faiths.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:11 am

Prak_Anima wrote:So really we might as well use the truth faith model, is what you're saying. Because otherwise... your system, where random assortments of lines and circles have metaphysical power over evil, is absurd.

No. The True Faith model is fucking retarded. The model where there are specific symbols that actually do things that you can actually discover and test is one where you can "learn" magic. That's key. Because otherwise you're just playing pretty princess dressup. "My character is the most faithful of all the unicorn princesses!"

Fuck that. And fuck you for suggesting it. A game in which the only thing that matters is not what you do but what you are in what is I might add a completely unmeasurable quantity: your "personal awesomeness." Not strength, speed, intelligence, height, or even beauty. No, just how much you believe what you say you believe. What the fuck is that?

If magic is learnable, that means that there are actual symbols and actual words that actual have an actual effect on the world if used in the proper circumstances. What you are suggesting is great for self esteem, but fucking worthless for cooperative play.

-Username17

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:15 am

Then have a game stat called "Piety" where if you have 8+ out of 10 or whatever you can use crosses to make Dracula run away like a little girl or something you can measure if you must have it measurable.

The "learnable" means that a bunch of symbols with nothing in common except looking similar, despite representing entirely different things, are somehow the same damn symbol for all intents and purposes.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:23 am

Elennsar wrote: Then have a game stat called "Piety"

No.

Fuck that. Seriously.

It's a game about people having to find ways to fight the unknown. It is not a game about being personally the chosen one for no fucking reason. If we wanted to play a game where for no measurable reason you were ordained by fate to be much much better and more important than everyone around you, we'd play Exalted. This is about Vampire, where that should not happen.

Elennsar wrote:The "learnable" means that a bunch of symbols with nothing in common except looking similar, despite representing entirely different things, are somehow the same damn symbol for all intents and purposes.

Uh... that's how symbolism actually works.

-Username17

Elennsar · Post by **Elennsar** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 9:31 am

No.

Fuck that. Seriously.

It's a game about people having to find ways to fight the unknown. It is not a game about being personally the chosen one for no fucking reason. If we wanted to play a game where for no measurable reason you were ordained by fate to be much much better and more important than everyone around you, we'd play Exalted. This is about Vampire, where that should not happen.

If you can accept "Beauty" as a score as a concept, then "Piety" makes at least as much sense and probably more so. No "ordained by fate". You're Pious. Congradulations. Because you're more pious and devoted than Bob the Janitor you are able to do things because of it. Not because you were born awesomer.

Uh... that's how symbolism actually works.

Uh, that's fucking insane.

Saying that it means the same thing vs. vampires despite being a symbol of something entirely different with nothing in common is bizzare.

"See, this lower case t is sort of like a cross, so a t surrounded by a circle will repel vampires!"

What the fuck?

Grek · Post by **Grek** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 10:19 am

Piety as a stat would work mechanically I guess, but we have to ask ourselves if that is really what we want.

If we make your piety score effected by your character's actions, than all of the players will have a mechanically enforced incentive to have their characters never ever show the slightest hint of doubt because if you do, your level appropriate skills stop working because your piety attribute goes down.

Or we can have piety be indepentant of what your character acts like and it becomes "hurt vampires and brew up anti-vampire tonic" stat by another name. It doesn't actually mean anything outside of the mechanics and the rules. And that would suck.

I suppose you could have it so that a high piety score allows you to use abilities A, B & C while a very low one (call it impiety, perhaps?) allows for skills X, Y & Z. Or the same skills with different flavor. (resonance and dissonance in shadowrun?) Having a medium piety score would suck, which I suppose would fit for a first level character. You still get the problem of if your character's actions can raise or lower your piety level and the resulting polarization of characters or making piety/impiety just some stat.

It could work, but ultimately, I don't know if that is really what should be done.