Prestige Domains and the spells they give you

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fbmf
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Prestige Domains and the spells they give you

Post by fbmf »

This from a thread I was following on Nifty, but it caught fire and was locked. I was following the thread, and I'd be interested to know what people think about this.

Please, though, keep it civil.

DotF, page 77 wrote:
If a noncleric enters a prestige class that allows access to a prestige domain, the character generally does gain access to the domain. She can use the granted power bestowed by the domain normally. If she is a divine spellcaster (a paladin, ranger, or druid), each day she can cast one extra spell of each spell level to which she normally has access, which must be the spell from the prestige domain for that level. If she is an arcane spellcaster (wizard, sorcerer, or bard), the domain spells are added to her spells known—scribed in a wizard's spellbook, or added to a sorcerer or bard's list of known spells, in addition to the character's normal number.


Oberoni, on Nifty wrote:
A wizard X/Contemplative 1 is a noncleric.

He is a divine spellcaster, so he gains a "domain" slot for his single divine caster level.

He is also an arcane spellcaster, so the domain spells are added to his spellbook (or added to his list of spells known, depending on the class).


DotF, page 55 wrote:
If the contemplative did not previously belong to a divine spellcasting class, she gains the ability to cast divine spells exactly as a cleric of her patron deity.


Oberoni wrote:
This in no way, shape or form makes you a cleric. You don't get a turning ability, a d8 hit die, etc. etc. You just cast divine spells exactly as a cleric would. You're still a noncleric.


Your thoughts?

The original thread is at:
http://azure.bbboy.net/niftymessageboar ... r][br]Game On,
fbmf

Machine_Kiss
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Re: Prestige Domains and the spells they give you

Post by Machine_Kiss »

It's important to note the verbiage differences between the DotF descriptions of the Prestige Domain acquisition rules, Contemplative, Divine Oracle, & Sacred Exorcist.

I used to believe that only the DO & SE PrC's could grant the PrD spells to an arcane spellcaster. Further readings indicate that indeed, Contemplative will add PrD spells to "spells known", although you do not get the benefit of furthering spellcaster levels in your arcane spellcasting class.

Nonetheless, for a high-level Sorc (or even a mid-to-high level Bard), adding a level of Contemplative can potentially be a strong acquisition if the PrD spells mesh well with your character concept. The reason I say high-level is that with your already slower primary spellcaster level progression, you need spell casting power over selection versatility at lower levels. Contemplative with Wiz seems a waste, as Wiz's can grab extra spells quite easy. Unless of course, the PrD's granted power is synergetic with your character archetype.

Username17
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Re: Prestige Domains and the spells they give you

Post by Username17 »

Oberoni is indeed correct on this one - you get the Divine Spellcaster benefits of having a Prestige Domain so long as you have one or more divine spellcaster classes. You get the Arcane Spellcaster benefits if you have one or more arcane spellcaster classes.

So a Cleric/Druid/Sorcerer/Wizard who picked up a level of Contemplative would get:

* The ability to prepare the spells from his Prestige Domain into his Clerical Domain slots.

* Domain slots for every level he could cast as a Druid which could as yet only be filled with spells from the Prestige Domain.

* The ability to spontaneously cast any of the spells from the Prestige Domain with his Sorcerer spell slots.

* The ability to prepare any of the spells from the Prestige Domain into his Wizard spell slots without the use of a spell book.

The only time a Prestige Domain is ever restricted to working on only a specific class is when it says so specifically in the description of the acquisition of the PRestige Domain - such as is the case for the Sacred Fist class. A cleric/druid is both a cleric and a non-cleric for these purposes, for example.

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Re: Prestige Domains and the spells they give you

Post by Oberoni »

I don't want to get into an argument about whether or not you can be a cleric and noncleric at the same time, at least this late at night.

But I will say that this:


DotF 55 wrote:If the contemplative did not previously belong to a divine spellcasting class, she gains the ability to cast divine spells exactly as a cleric of her patron deity.


Does not logically lead to the conclusion "Thus, your character counts as a cleric [for the purposes of XXX]."

The only way this would be true is if the statement was explicitly made--i.e. if another phrase was added to DotF that said "for the purposes of Prestige Domain acquisition, a Contemplative with no previous levels of Cleric still counts as a cleric."

It would be the same, for example, if a monster "takes triple damage from a Sneak Attack if the character executing the Sneak Attack is a Rogue." Your Bard10/Assassin5 Sneak Attacks exactly the same as a Monk10/Rogue5--but he wouldn't get the triple damage bonus.
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Re: Prestige Domains and the spells they give you

Post by Machine_Kiss »

Here is an interesting situation:

Let's say your straight Sorceror takes a level of Contemplative at Level 11 (assume he has the Education feat for Knowledge:Religion pre-requisites). Wa-la ... your Sorc is now the proud new owner of 5 new spells from her PrD. Let's say she takes Mysticism (a smart choice for a Sorceror).

At level 12, she continues on in Sorc or another arcane PrC. It's now time for her to perform a legal swapping of spells if she so desires. There's really nothing in the rules stating that she *has* to keep all the spells from the newly acquired PrD. So she opts to swap out her 2nd level spell Spiritual Weapon (from the Mysticism PrD) for the Web spell.

Now granted, her deity is probably ticked off that the spells given to her have been abused/violated in this fashion. In fact, your DM may rule that those spells are "permanent" gifts given to you as a reward to your contemplative dedication and piety shown toward your god.

But ... you still "technically" could do it. So the issue is, do you think it is worth it to sacrifice 1 spellcaster level as a Sorceror to take a level of Contemplative? Up to 9 spells and a cool granted ability .... for 1 spellcaster class? For a Wizard, I would not do it. For a Sorc, I might ... depends on the PrD. And I sure as hell would not do it before I gained 9th level spells, as my spellcasting level progression is slow enough as it is.

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Re: Prestige Domains and the spells they give you

Post by Username17 »


MK wrote:It's now time for her to perform a legal swapping of spells if she so desires. There's really nothing in the rules stating that she *has* to keep all the spells from the newly acquired PrD. So she opts to swap out her 2nd level spell Spiritual Weapon (from the Mysticism PrD) for the Web spell.

Yeah... so?
MK wrote:For a Wizard, I would not do it. For a Sorc, I might ... depends on the PrD.


Huh? Sorcerers are already one spellcaster level behind. Obviously, if you were willing to play a Sorcerer at all, you'd be perfectly willing to play a Wizard who sacrificed one spellcaster level in exchange for being more thematically appropriate and/or having abilities and spells that appealed to you.

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Tae_Kwon_Dan
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Re: Prestige Domains and the spells they give you

Post by Tae_Kwon_Dan »

I think his point was more the swapping trick works well with a Sorceror. I'm not sure that I agree as it puts me a full spell level behind the Wizard and I'm already lagging.

The ability to suddenly cast Web isn't as appealing to me as saying being able to Disintigrate things.
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Re: Prestige Domains and the spells they give you

Post by User3 »

Frank said:
"Yeah... so?"

So your deity might get pissed that you turned your back on a spell granted directly by him ... he could probably care less about the spells you are swapping that you learned as a result of your Sorceror mechanics. Those PrD spells are divine gifts from your God. You earned those due to the close, mutually beneficial relationship you have with your deity. I'm speaking directly about the RP aspects of such a spell swap.


Frank said:
"Huh? Sorcerers are already one spellcaster level behind. Obviously, if you were willing to play a Sorcerer at all, you'd be perfectly willing to play a Wizard who sacrificed one spellcaster level in exchange for being more thematically appropriate and/or having abilities and spells that appealed to you."

If I already had 9th level spells, I *might* think about it. Also, a PrD such as Mysticism has a huge impact on a Sorc's saving throws - assuming an uber-high CHA. Personally, every Sorc I've ever played has never really worried much about spell selection. I've pretty much got down pat the most versatile spells both in core and expanded WotC supplements. But for many other Sorc players, the options I stated may have relevance. And besides, some players do not wish to be play full-throttle min-max'ed builds. A PrD's special ability may appeal to them for RP reasons or a sign of closer association with their deity.
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Re: Prestige Domains and the spells they give you

Post by Machine_Kiss »

By the way, that last post was mine. Forgot to log in. :blush:

BTW, TKD, I'm a chick. :)
Tae_Kwon_Dan
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Re: Prestige Domains and the spells they give you

Post by Tae_Kwon_Dan »

:blush: My mistake.
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