How do I keep my party from sucking like a broken vacuum?

[MrWaeseL]

Ok, here's the deal.

My party sucks. They aren't even adequately powerful for their level (3rd to 5th at the moment). Right now that isn't much of a problem, since our DM is far from a min/maxer (or a rules expert, for that matter), but at higher levels, even monsters from the 3.0 MM are probably going to kill them when they are encountered at the appropriate level.

Here's our party:

Me - halfling sorcerer (it was the first character I created for the group and I didn't want to seem like a total powergamer until I knew the group better.) casts utility spells, such as grease and silent image.

player 1 - human rogue. He's actually the 2nd most powerful character even though this is the first character he's ever played, whihc further strengthens my belief that rogues are the best designed core class.

player 2 - elf druid. Can't prepare her own spells without help, and is much too keen on healing and whacking (missing) with her quarterstaff. God help us when she gets wild shape.

player 3 - halfling cleric. Walks around in leather armor, and prepares mostly bless type spells (I think. I've not seen him cast much of anything yet)

player 4 - half orc barbarian 2/fighter. The other players refer to him as "the power player". Probably because he's 1 to two levels above the rest of the party. Seems to think fighter is the bee's knees.

The DM runs a gnome bard, but mostly as a plot device. (like when we can't figure out those crazy go nuts puzzles he puts in the game)

So there you have it. The DM wants to play, and I've said I could DM, so maybe I should teach by example?

[MrWaeseL]

Oh, and the groups pretty cool, so I'm not going to leave them. I'm getting my powerplay fix somewhere else, but I still like to be in a somewhat competitive party.

EDIT: maybe this should be in the trenches...

[Lago_AM3P]

Encourage your party to engage in tactics. Not anything that involves a character sheet, but just general tactics. As in, tricking a basilisk into a pit or waiting until the minotaur is asleep before stabbing him in the face.

After you totally crush a few encounters by clever planning, it'll encourage off-game planning (i.e. min-maxxing). Then you'll totally be the win.

[Lago_AM3P]

(Where'd my freaking post go?)

If you want to gear your party up for any sort of character optimization, you first have to show them how much more fun battles are with tactics and planning.

Start them off with something simple but which anyone can do. Poison or infect a few sheep that the troll tries to eat. Trap a basilik in a 50' deep pit and plug it full of arrows. Hide in a rope trick, wait until the minotaur falls asleep and then stab him in the neck.

After they do this a few times, optimizing their characters should come naturally. I mean, min-maxing is an extension of tactics, where your party collects a handful of tried-and-true schticks at character generation ahead of time. People will never ever warm up to optimizing their characters unless they have an appreciation for tactics in the first place.

The only way people will not naturally min-max after having fun with tactics is if they value some other facet of the game more and take the view that min-maxxing diminishes this. Of course, the thing I'm talking about is roleplaying, and it's plain to see how otherwise experienced gamers have a disdain for 'optimizing' their characters. They avoid the common pitfalls that genuinely new people make when creating their characters (wearing generally the best armor and using the best weapon, picking up needed supplies, avoiding taking cross-class skill ranks, picking up levels geared towards a theme, not doing things that interfere with their character schtick, etc.), showing that some of it sticks.

But really, the first step in getting people to optimize is just to show that the DM can be more free with adventures, that your party can take on a bigger variety of challenges, and that the game goes smoother if they improve their power level.

[Desdan_Mervolam]

I thought a broken vaccume doesn't suck?

-Des

[Lago_AM3P]

I thought a broken vaccume doesn't suck?

I was going to make that joke.

[RandomCasualty]

1096647396[/unixtime]]
If you want to gear your party up for any sort of character optimization, you first have to show them how much more fun battles are with tactics and planning.

Start them off with something simple but which anyone can do. Poison or infect a few sheep that the troll tries to eat. Trap a basilik in a 50' deep pit and plug it full of arrows. Hide in a rope trick, wait until the minotaur falls asleep and then stab him in the neck.

Well, the thing is that a lot of people don't actually derive much fun out of this.

They want to kill shit Aragorn or Conan style, in a no holds barred slug fest. Killing a sleeping minotaur to many seems unheroic, and almost like cheating at D&D.

Unless you are in a position where the creature is far beyond your current abilities and is thus a puzzle monster, most people really don't want to do stuff like that. D&D is fundamentally a game of risk versus reward and generally taking away the risk makes the rewards less sweet.

Being able to brag about the one time you killed that helpless sleeping minotaur just isn't the same as telling the story about when half your party was dead and you rolled two consecutive criticals to turn the tide of battle.

[fbmf]

1096624224[/unixtime]]

EDIT: maybe this should be in the trenches...

[TGFBS]
As long as you just want advice on making your party competitive, I'm inclined to leave it here.
[/TGFBS]

[Username17]

Since you alread specialize in grease and silent image and such, you are nearly as hard core as an arcane spellcaster can be. Give your compatriots some tactical advice based on your own use of delaying tactics, and see if you can get the party druid to want to get in on that action with stuff like entangle (most powerful first level spell by a lot).

That should be a good start. Once you successfully show up the rest of the party with some indirect action, other players will presumably want to follow.

Interesting note: I was recently running a short duration game for one of my groups while the normal DM was out of town. The players decided to run two single classed fighters and a bard. I'm not even making that up. They were so unmin/maxed that it made me cry. So I decided to pick the PC's magic items for them, and heaped stuff on the characters to give them each some interesting and unique abilities and bring them up to speed numerically a bit. Then I ran almost the entire game as role playing anyway. It went over fairly well, despite the fact that three people made 6th level characters that would have had a hard time dealing with any CR 4 monster out of the book had they used purchased equipment.

Killing a sleeping minotaur to many seems unheroic, and almost like cheating at D&D.

Well yeah. I mean, who wants to be some crappy would-be hero like Theseus, when they could be totally awesome like General Giuseppe Arimondi or Lord Cardigan?

-Username17

[Lago_AM3P]

EDIT: maybe this should be in the trenches...

If this thread ends up there, you will never see it again.

[MrWaeseL]

Thanks all, I'll try and see what happens.

[RandomCasualty]

1096654417[/unixtime]]
Well yeah. I mean, who wants to be some crappy would-be hero like Theseus, when they could be totally awesome like General Giuseppe Arimondi or Lord Cardigan?

Look, I can't state why exactly people feel that way, I just know that they do. A lot of gamers I've played with think it's boring an unheroic to murder something in its sleep. They prefer the epic Final Fantasy style boss battle.

And somewhere along the lines I think we really have to decide on a genre. If people are playing with a superhero style genre where characters can float on air and stuff by the power of thought, then generally murdering people in their sleep isn't part of that genre. Generally there, you're superman or wolverine kicking in the front door.

If your playing a grim and gritty political game of cloak and dagger, then these sorts of dishonorable combats do occur and people tend to expect them.

It all depends on what people have fun with.

[MrWaeseL]

My DM has said that "he doesn't care much for numbers", which leads to us facing a cranium rat swarm at avg party level 2.
However, I am helping the cleric pick his spells now, and he seems to think the "darkness-on-a-stone-in-your-mouth" trick is pretty cool, so we're getting somewhere.

[Username17]

My DM has said that "he doesn't care much for numbers", which leads to us facing a cranium rat swarm at avg party level 2.

I've been meaning to ask... how did that turn out? Superficially it seems like it would involve the complete destruction of your entire party in a couple of trounds. I don't think there's enough area effect damage in a 2nd level party to kill such a beast. As in, you will have run out of alchemist's fire and spell slots before the cranium rats are noticably depleted.

So... did anyone survive by running away?

-Username17

[User3]

1096650489[/unixtime]]

1096647396[/unixtime]]
If you want to gear your party up for any sort of character optimization, you first have to show them how much more fun battles are with tactics and planning.

Start them off with something simple but which anyone can do. Poison or infect a few sheep that the troll tries to eat. Trap a basilik in a 50' deep pit and plug it full of arrows. Hide in a rope trick, wait until the minotaur falls asleep and then stab him in the neck.

Well, the thing is that a lot of people don't actually derive much fun out of this.

They want to kill shit Aragorn or Conan style, in a no holds barred slug fest. Killing a sleeping minotaur to many seems unheroic, and almost like cheating at D&D.

Unless you are in a position where the creature is far beyond your current abilities and is thus a puzzle monster, most people really don't want to do stuff like that. D&D is fundamentally a game of risk versus reward and generally taking away the risk makes the rewards less sweet.

Being able to brag about the one time you killed that helpless sleeping minotaur just isn't the same as telling the story about when half your party was dead and you rolled two consecutive criticals to turn the tide of battle.

That is pretty depressing.

Although to be honest, things like inteligence, tactics, and wit are far more appropriate to a more 'realistic' fantasy game, where characters actually have to defeat things like dragons and minotaurs the equivalent of 6 CRs above them and armies that vastly outnumber them.
Not D&D.

[Oberoni]

I don't see it as depressing.

If we're talking about the most popular RPG on the market that attracts the most players (and we are), RC is absolutely right that the battles that are probably "best" are the ones that are straightforward bashfests.

Tactics like flanking and cover and stuff are probably the ideal ones to encourage. Setting up encounters where the players can "ace" the enemy with some trick or too much planning just isn't going to be as rewarding.

I'll give an example, using myself and some experienced D&D players.

Medesha was running an online game many months ago (way back in the days of just 3E). Very long story short, we were in the desert and we had to fight a giant scorpion that was murdering some lost caravan or somesuch.

If we had taken an extra day to prepare, we could have had the whole party Flying and taken down the scorpion with 0 casualties, and probably 0 damage period.

However, in the interest of not condemning several caravaners to death while we slept (and, apparently, in the interest of not being smart and careful), we decided to attack him then and there.

The battle was bloody and grapply and crazy. We barely eeked out a victory, and I mean barely.

And, let me tell you, it was a hell of a lot more memorable than if we would have just air-sniped him to death.

Scorpinox, we love you, man.

[MrWaeseL]

1100216843[/unixtime]]

My DM has said that "he doesn't care much for numbers", which leads to us facing a cranium rat swarm at avg party level 2.

I've been meaning to ask... how did that turn out? Superficially it seems like it would involve the complete destruction of your entire party in a couple of trounds. I don't think there's enough area effect damage in a 2nd level party to kill such a beast. As in, you will have run out of alchemist's fire and spell slots before the cranium rats are noticably depleted.

So... did anyone survive by running away?

-Username17

Yeah, for all intents and purposes, everyone (except me who couldn't see anything and ran away) got killed. However, the DM coughed up some deus ex machina to save us at the last moment

[Thoth_Amon]

You were happened upon by a swarm of cranium cats?

TA

[Sma]

I like totally don´t get it Toth.

Sma

[Thoth_Amon]

Awww, come on guys, it's so simple maybe you need a refresher course. Hey! It's all ball bearings nowadays.

TA