Eberron Sucks?

[Voss]

Really, what would bother me about a Cleric running around in full plated armour, as well as packing a longsword and a heavy sheild; is that I don't recognize the character as "God-fearing Priest" anymore.

Ahem. 'Nuf said.

Song of Roland, Archbishop Turpin, Completely indistinguishable from everyone else on the field, except he talks about God slightly more. Exceedingly bloodthirsty too.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Wasn't there also a Bishop Odo, who originated the 'blunt weapons only' rule?

In any event, I think armored or unarmored should be equally valid choices for all roles, one way or another.

[NoDot]

Voss, were you deliberately trying to misinterpret my post, or did I just not express myself clearly.

[Voss]

Sorry, I was responding more to JE's post. I just quoted the post with the idea I was responding to- I didn't feel like scrolling up to find his.

[Judging__Eagle]

Really, what would bother me about a Cleric running around in full plated armour, as well as packing a longsword and a heavy sheild; is that I don't recognize the character as "God-fearing Priest" anymore.

Ahem. 'Nuf said.

The Knights Templar and at least one Pope. That's the two examples that stick with me of "holy people" that "Waged war" in "armour".

Some examples of classical (aka, let's say anything pre-1940's) or historical characters or persons that were famous for both; wearing warriors equipment (armour, weapons) and being renown for their powerful mental powers, would be interesting.

The psi-warrior is more of a mystical warrior than a powerful mentalist; The duskblade, hexblade and psi-warr are all sort of the same sort of character.

The hulking armoured, great-axe wielding character who also knows how to make people's minds explode without having to even blink or look in their direction doesn't really give me a good feeling.

Heck, even Othon Von Castaka (a .... 21th lvl Psi-Gish of some kind) barely wore armour and relied more on his mental powers to knock unconsious the Purple Endoguard, than on his Metabaronic weapons or armour.

Later on, even his great grand daughter-son (a girl twin born without a brain, given her male twin brother's brain in order to allow her Cyborg father Steelhead to console his wife into not willing herself to death by tuberculosis) relied soley upon her ability to manifest destroying energy when she was assigned a several-year stint to be an Executioner-Gladiator on the Prison-Execution planet.

The most 'equipment' she ever wore was her clothing, her cybernetic hand/upper arm (removed with a device that was used to slice the paleo-food known as 'ham'). When she had to kill water dwelling creature, she used some ultra-slim SCUBA gear that let her talk under water with her opponent.

I think that the difference that I have with psions with armour is that why can't being a psion be good enough? Why not have all of their powers just be psion powers? Why do they have to have their mental powers cheapened by them having to also use armour and weapons?

Is it a flaw in their powers, that prevents them from both blasting and protecting themselves with armour? (which could be interesting)
Do they need gear as a way to focus their power?


Really, the questions are: 1) what is the flavour and 2) what about the characters powers reinforces that flavour?

You don't suddenly see the RoW fighter get Spheres, or Telepathy, or the potential for extra arms, or hulking melee damage, or the ability to have the ability to shoot fire from their eyes or hands.

Likewise you don't see the RoW barbarian getting the ability to interrupt an enemies actions; or see a RoW Samurai being able to learn how to use a new weapon with extreme ease; or see the RoW knight being able to have free choice in his bonus feats.

Determine the flavor that you want, then write down powers per level that are appropriate.

[NoDot]

Judging__Eagle, I suggest you reread the train of conversation.

This whole tangent started with a comment that one could play a Sorcerer reflavored and it would make a good Psion.

I tried to point out why that didn't work. Verbal and Somatic Components to spells being a good example of why you can't.

Somehow, this seems to say to you all that I think i want all Psions to run around in heavy armour. This is irrelevant, and frankly, I don't care either way.

Can we get back to my original point?

[Prak]

Judging__Eagle, I suggest you reread the train of conversation.

This whole tangent started with a comment that one could play a Sorcerer reflavored and it would make a good Psion.

I tried to point out why that didn't work. Verbal and Somatic Components to spells being a good example of why you can't.

Somehow, this seems to say to you all that I think i want all Psions to run around in heavy armour. This is irrelevant, and frankly, I don't care either way.

Can we get back to my original point?

It was my fault, I pointed out what the purpose of somatic and verbal components were and asked the simple question "does it fucking matter if we say 'go ahead, take some armour proficiencies and wear full plate if you really want'?", ie, does it matter if psions ignore somatic and verbal components, based on what the real purpose of those are?

[Judging__Eagle]

Psion should use both verbal and somatic components.

Nothing I've seen in comic books or read in other books suggests that a psychic character stands still and says nothing while focusing on making their powers work.

When they 'can' do such things, they're usually pretty powerful characters.

That much we can seem to disagree with.

I honestly don't know why you would want Psion running around silently and/or standing still or grappling (actually, in reality, when you're grappling you can't very well even think of something else, if you do, you lose) while using their abilities, but you do.

Aside from the XPH, I've never seen such a thing myself.

Me, I want Psions to gesture at a target, or touch their temples, or say a word that helps the Psion focus their mind when doing something.

[Koumei]

I want psions to DIE IN THE HOLY PURGING FLAMES OF THE EMPEROR (for He is merciful).

But I suppose that's already established.

[NoDot]

Psion should use both verbal and somatic components.

Nothing I've seen in comic books or read in other books suggests that a psychic character stands still and says nothing while focusing on making their powers work.

*headdesk* Let me spell the problem out for you.

If a Spellcaster cannot apply the Somatic or Verbal Component, the spell fails.

The gestures you're referring to do not cause the spell to fail in their absence. (Honestly, they're there for the audience's benefit.)

Ergo, Psions should not require Somantic or Verbal Components like Spellcasters.

[edit] As to "casting" without Verbal or Somantic Components, there's the Conduit to the Lower Planes.

[Judging__Eagle]

Who's to say that a Psion standing still doesn't cause the Psychic power to fail?

The XPH?

B/c honestly, that entire book is bullshit.

Unless you've got Still/Silent spell or you're using Spell-Likes, you should always have to gesture or say something.

Most sources that include 'mind powers' also include "you have to do something to make it work". Look at the Star Wars series. They may not have to say anything, but a lot of them have to make some sort of gesture.

If Darth Vader could lift that guy without needing to move his hand, then it would have been more impressive. However, he needed to lift his arm and make a crushing motion with his hand in order to lift and choke his victim. An obvious somatic component.

When Obi-Wan did his "these are not the ..." he included a slight dismissing gesture with his hand, to emphasize his point. An other somatic component.

Maybe Psionics needs either somatic or verbal in a setting, but they must always have somatic components or they always have verbal components.

[NoDot]

Who's to say that a Psion standing still doesn't cause the Psychic power to fail?

The XPH?

The source material.

Please don't attempt this fallacy. You're the one claiming that Psions must, as in their powers fail in these are absent, use gestures or say something.

You're the one with the extraordinary claim. Therefore, you're the one who needs to supply the proof.

If you want to find some, here's what you need to find: find proof that the majority of Psions in popular media cannot preform their powers when their arms are taken up doing something else (even better: cannot preform their abilities due to broken limbs) or when they have something in their mouths (stuffed mouths and broken jaws would be good examples).

[Prak]

so what you're saying is that rather than citing every single psion using gestures or words, we need to cite the psion that gets his arms or jaw broken and is fucked? What if we can't find an example where a psion gets disabled, but every source has them using somatic components. I'd say that we're just fine using our examples, and YOU are the one who must cite the disabled psion.

more examples of components:

• Professor Xavier (X-men): Must put his hand to his forehead and the other arm out, or enter a trance if using Cerebro. Somatic Component and a magic device.
• Jean Grey (X-Men): Must throw her arms out and hold them there to utilize telekinesis, or the familiar one hand to forehead/one arm out for forcefields.
• Ninjas (Naruto): Must make hand signs if utilizing ninjutsu or genjutsu beyond sleight of hand, these hand gestures can take entire turns to complete.

[angelfromanotherpin]

• Professor Xavier (X-men): Must put his hand to his forehead and the other arm out, or enter a trance if using Cerebro. Somatic Component and a magic device.
• Jean Grey (X-Men): Must throw her arms out and hold them there to utilize telekinesis, or the familiar one hand to forehead/one arm out for forcefields.

Both of these characters routinely use their abilities with no outward sign at all.

[NoDot]

so what you're saying is that rather than citing every single psion using gestures or words,

Their presence is accounted for under both statements. Our statements differ on events when a Psion does not use gestures (Judging__Eagle->powers fail; NoDot->powers work just fine). Therefore, citing examples of gestures being used does not address the differences and cannot be used to decide which is correct.

we need to cite the psion that gets his arms or jaw broken and is fucked?

That would be evidence which supports Judging__Eagle's assertion.

(Broken jaws, amputated limbs, and stuffed mouths are all just examples of places where you could be looking to find evidence. They aren't the only places where you could look, but they would provide very convincing evidence, regardless of which of us it supports.)

I'd say that we're just fine using our examples, and YOU are the one who must cite the disabled psion.

The one who makes the extraordinary claim must provide the evidence. Judging__Eagle is making an extraordinary claim. Therefore, he must provide the evidence.

According to Judging__Eagle, Psions must use Verbal or Somantic Components or their powers fail.

According to the flavor of Psionic abilities from the source material, Psions draw their power from their mind. Not only are Material, Somantic, and Verbal Components irrelevant, but they should still be able to use their powers if they get their brain pulled out from their skull and stuck in a glass jar. (That's somewhere else those looking for evidence might wish to start.)

(If you disagree with I statement on the flavor of Psionics, then I would like to know, in your own words, what the flavor of Psionics is, particularly if it cannot be used to draw either of the conclusions-mainly the first one-that I listed above.)

[edit] It's also worth pointing out that the events I said would be good places to start looking would also be exploitations of an Achilles Heel, and likely would therefore be relatively common.

[Judging__Eagle]

All I'm saying is that every source of 'mental' powers includes gestures or words of some kind.

Heck, I could argue that wizards are just psions who have their abilities written down and prepared ahead of time.

In any case, don't extraordinary claims work in that you have to prove something, not disprove it?

Prove that in the source material that no character ever has to change what they are doing at all in order to manifest their powers.

Heck, there are scenes where even affecting a dice roll needs the character to point at the dice they want to change.

The truth is, the source material isn't consistent. They use gestures to do things, but when the characters can't do a gesture, they don't need to. That's author-fiat; the same sort of author-fiat that allows Drizzt to remain alive despite the fact that he should be long dead by now.

The reason that I say 'gestures are mandatory' is that if they are used at all, then there's a purpose to them.

Even normal people do the same thing when they are thinking about something, they scratch their head, or rub their chin, or thrum their fingers on a table, or they set themselves to auto-fail all listen and spot checks while concentrating on their mental problem.

Psions being able to do more extraordinary things would most likely take more extraordinary methods to focus their minds.

Really, the problem is that Mentalists and Wizards in classical literatire are indistinguishable. Looking at some of the original wizard spells demonstrates this: telepathy, telekinesis, telepathic bond & flaming hands (a pyro kinetic effect if I ever saw one) are classical examples of 'psychic' abilities.

Of course, people wanted an 'actual' psychic class, so one was poorly written for it and used on and off again in the D&D game. Really, the wizard or sorcerer still fit the bill for mental powers characters.

Wizards use written formulas that are proven to work for how to think, act and speak to pull the effect off, sorcerers use willpower to give their words and gestures effect to do the same.

[Prak]

Both of these characters routinely use their abilities with no outward sign at all.

oh, oops.

stuff

*nod* sorry if I came off as a bit of an ass, thanks for not being an ass back.

brain in a jar

This is a common enough trope that I think it works as evidence for the "no components" arguement.

edit: however, one could also argue that the loss of a body give the character some freebie points and they usually take still and silent spell.

[Surgo]

All I'm saying is that every source of 'mental' powers includes gestures or words of some kind.

Here you go again..."All" you're saying is that every source includes gestures or words. Which is provably false (and has already been proved so with the Professor X example).

Prove that in the source material that no character ever has to change what they are doing at all in order to manifest their powers.

Um, hello? You're the one with the extraordinary claim that every source includes gestures or words. The burden of proof is on you to prove that of the two subsets of psionics (one that uses gestures or whatever, and one that does not need to), the subset that need not use gestures is empty. Which you cannot, in fact, do, because we have already shown that it is non-empty.

To use a popular example from real life, it's like saying that God exists and that the burden of proof is on us to prove that he does not.

[Koumei]

To use a popular example from real life, it's like saying that God exists and that the burden of proof is on us to prove that he does not.

Actually, it's more like you saying that God exists and did cool shit, and JE said "No, God is just some dude named God. He didn't do anything special, he's a normal person." and you said "prove that he isn't a god and can't do godlike things. Any instance where he doesn't do it simply means he doesn't want to, not that he can't. Not listening, lalala!"

Granted, I stopped caring about this psi-babble long ago, but at least the argument is vaguely interesting.

[Surgo]

Uh, it's nothing like that at all. Did you even read the first part of my post?

[Kaelik]

Even normal people do the same thing when they are thinking about something, they scratch their head, or rub their chin, or thrum their fingers on a table, or they set themselves to auto-fail all listen and spot checks while concentrating on their mental problem.

Way to argue so convincingly against yourself. No ask yourself the following question:

Would those people be unable to think if the could not scratch their head? Or is it just a comfortable gesture that they take advantage of when it is an option, but has no bearing whatsoever on whether they are capable of doing the action in question?

[Aktariel]

Well, just to throw something out there:

Unbodied.

From the XPH.

You know, the 4th level psions who are nothing but incorporeal brains?

How do they make psionics happen if they don't have a fucking body to gesture with?

[Jerry]

Well, just to throw something out there:

Unbodied.

From the XPH.

You know, the 4th level psions who are nothing but incorporeal brains?

How do they make psionics happen if they don't have a fucking body to gesture with?

I don't know. But how do spell casting ghosts cast spells with somatic components if they don't have a body?

In D&D, it just does. Just give them the equivalent of Still Spell with an unaltered caster level and all will be fine.

[Aktariel]

Ah, but ghosts still have arms and legs to point and gesture with, and noses to twitch, and so on and so forth.

Unbodied literally have no bodies. The illustration is an ephemeral brain.

[NoDot]

Of course, people wanted an 'actual' psychic class, so one was poorly written for it and used on and off again in the D&D game. Really, the wizard or sorcerer still fit the bill for mental powers characters.

'I have already stated why, multiple times, in this thread why that is not so.

@Aktariel:
You're arguing that the Bible is the word of God, because the Bible says it's the word of God.

It's called "Circular Logic." I appreciate the attempt at helping me, but that particular argument is logically fallacious.