What's your favorite kind of high level "friendly" NPC?

[erik]

I now want to make a setting where dragons are convinced that land ownership can be part of their hoard and they jealously protect their city as it is part of their wealth. So you get rival dragon kingdoms and act as agents of a dragon king/queen or as rebels or upstarts.

Isn't that just Shadowrun?

Ehhh, probably. I am pretty Noob in regards to Shadowrun lore/setting. But if so then that is probably a pitch people might enjoy: Fantasy Shadowrun where the dragons are not as invincible and you can realistically topple them and steal their dungeon hoards.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

So... on the topic of high level NPCs people might actually like the proposal is.

What if high level dragons cared about the same territories as low level humanoid PCs, wouldn't THAT result in fun?

Supporting argument... countries shaped like dragons.

This is some high level deep thought right here.

[erik]

You’re supposed to bring that high level deep thought. I’m here for color.

[erik]

So, the real critique of my big monsters being sessile is that they don’t really answer the problem of friendly NPCs who are just like you but better. The game assumes there are sessile monsters out there already and that’s neither here nor there.

I think if you want endearing NPCs who can also wreck shit but send you to do it instead then humanize em. Give em an emotional weakness. The more powerful you are and the more stuff you have to protect the more responsibility you gather. Maybe they’re afraid that if they go plane hopping they’ll lose the city that holds their loved ones and legacy. Can share a sob story of how it happened to em once before and they swore never again. They want to train up a replacement or backup and you’re it.

Could throw in family ties to endear the powerful NPC too. Maybe the party didn’t know it but their ancestors all did em a solid in the past and they proved their worthiness and those same traits are exhibited by the PCs.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Supporting argument... countries shaped like dragons.

This is some high level deep thought right here.

Hey, man. Nothing wrong with ripping off Bionicle. Nothing at all.

[Kaelik]

So, the real critique of my big monsters being sessile is that they don’t really answer the problem of friendly NPCs who are just like you but better. The game assumes there are sessile monsters out there already and that’s neither here nor there.

I think if you want endearing NPCs who can also wreck shit but send you to do it instead then humanize em. Give em an emotional weakness. The more powerful you are and the more stuff you have to protect the more responsibility you gather. Maybe they’re afraid that if they go plane hopping they’ll lose the city that holds their loved ones and legacy. Can share a sob story of how it happened to em once before and they swore never again. They want to train up a replacement or backup and you’re it.

Could throw in family ties to endear the powerful NPC too. Maybe the party didn’t know it but their ancestors all did em a solid in the past and they proved their worthiness and those same traits are exhibited by the PCs.

You could probably go a long way if you were willing to model your setting in a specific kind of way with the mechanics, you could say something like "power comes by establishing your ideal and who you are, and the more power you get the more cemented you are, becoming less like a person and more like a terrain feature or a storm or a natural force." So that was higher level people have a bunch of specific things about them that allow anyone who doesn't want to fight them to just avoid fighting them.

Sure King Biggest Boi rules his kingdom, but he's basically like a volcano, if you pay your taxes and don't preach revolution the nature of his power prevents him from attacking you or even bothering to deal with you, but he can still tell the local Baron to deal with the Bandits in his land, and the local Baron, who is still mostly human, can exert his powers against the bandits, because his power has not grown to the point where it imposes as many restrictions on him and has narrowed to a single point. Meanwhile, over in the Evil Desert, the black wind rolls around fucking things up a lot, because it's a powerful creature, but if you commit murder once a month or avoid the Evil Desert, it will never bother you, or mostly never bother you, and lots of midrange power people in the evil desert are a bunch of regular murderers because they live in the Black Wind all the time, but they are still mostly human and can do evil human stuff like invade King Biggest Boi's realm.

But that requires very different mechanics then D&D, and you kind of have to have mechanical support for like, pledges that limit actions which PCs also take on each level up, and tiers where you define a bunch of limits on your future power.

It sounds like a lot of game design work when it would be easier to just say "actually there are no high level NPCs around to do this" and play with a system that already exists and might be more fun for the players.

[merxa]

So, the real critique of my big monsters being sessile is that they don’t really answer the problem of friendly NPCs who are just like you but better. The game assumes there are sessile monsters out there already and that’s neither here nor there.

I think if you want endearing NPCs who can also wreck shit but send you to do it instead then humanize em. Give em an emotional weakness. The more powerful you are and the more stuff you have to protect the more responsibility you gather. Maybe they’re afraid that if they go plane hopping they’ll lose the city that holds their loved ones and legacy. Can share a sob story of how it happened to em once before and they swore never again. They want to train up a replacement or backup and you’re it.

Could throw in family ties to endear the powerful NPC too. Maybe the party didn’t know it but their ancestors all did em a solid in the past and they proved their worthiness and those same traits are exhibited by the PCs.

You could probably go a long way if you were willing to model your setting in a specific kind of way with the mechanics, you could say something like "power comes by establishing your ideal and who you are, and the more power you get the more cemented you are, becoming less like a person and more like a terrain feature or a storm or a natural force." So that was higher level people have a bunch of specific things about them that allow anyone who doesn't want to fight them to just avoid fighting them.

to generalize this more, certain types of power could come from investitures and have obligations or restraints.

So King Arthur might draw power from the land, mandate of the people, lady of the lake, excalibur, but each of these sources could burden him with restrictions on how to wield the power, or obligations he must perform to retain them, both of which can tie him down.

my initial reaction is to cordon off these powers and put them into a domains minigame, so these powers might be more aligned to impact regions and armies, but could have benefits more relevant to adventuring as well.

[Thaluikhain]

To extend that a little bit, you have things like druids who are connected to nature (or possibly particular parts of nature), so the Woodland Druid might be powerful in the woods but not the jungle, tundra or city of Glasgow.

To extend that a little bit, the Rogue's Guild might be powerful in Glasgow but is not prepared to fight the druids with their nature magic (or maybe even they are only equipped to fight Woodland Druids, not the monsters in the jungle or tundra). Though that's less about magic and power than about skillsets and powerbases.

(Also, what about countries shaped like dragons where there aren't any and it's all about the lycanthropes, just to mess with people?)

[tussock]

It kind of makes sense for high level NPCs to be in a state of détente. Where they're regularly talking so they don't kill each other, and the talks have in fact resulted in a few peace agreements, requiring them to not wander around murdering enormous numbers of things in each other's territories.

But where, obviously, they all cheat like fuck and send low level "spies" and such to do a bit of killing of whoever desperately needs it. So there's a Red Dragon fucking around just across the border, boss NPC can't do it because that would be war, but trade caravan guards? Sweet as, they can deal with imminent threats as they go, all within the treaties, just carry something the Dragon wants.

Which is the sort of thing the Forgotten Realms talks up, and then shits on because in fact Elminster shows up everywhere in "disguise" to keep the plot on the rails, and also is personally an unkillable immortal. As is the Pain lady in Planescape. And because they're unkillable immortals they can just wander around being huge dicks all the time, and do. Except when you need them, and then, well, nowhere to be found, or too busy in the hot tub together.


The other space for adventure is where the last lot of high level folk did not talk and instead mostly killed or Imprisoned each other, and well, maybe you'll be the ones to take over this horrible power vacuum that's causing everyone so many adventures. Also, there may be a Dragon of Tyr or something in the city over the way, as the last survivor of the previous bunch.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

...requiring them to not wander around murdering enormous numbers of things in each other's territories...

You act like you've identified a "space for adventure" where high level characters don't prevent or diminish low level adventures.

Despite having described by omission one fucking giant elephant in the room of your plan that stomps all the fuck over it.

Now read the quote. Think for a minute. Who did you still allow for as a high level entity to turn up in which territories?

[Thaluikhain]

It kind of makes sense for high level NPCs to be in a state of détente. Where they're regularly talking so they don't kill each other, and the talks have in fact resulted in a few peace agreements, requiring them to not wander around murdering enormous numbers of things in each other's territories.

I suppose that would also allow for escalation when that tradition breaks down and higher level NPCs start crossing borders.

Personally I sort of lean towards the idea of high level NPCs tending to be stay at home/crypt/fortress monsters that brood in their lairs for hundres of years not doing much, or selfish elf lord types who just don't really care about what goes on outside their fortress. Yeah, you lot go deal with the orcs or whatever, have some low level junk, but I'll stay here.

(That has all sorts of other implications for the setting, of course)

[deaddmwalking]

Except when you need them, and then, well, nowhere to be found, or too busy in the hot tub together.

That's a pretty solid reason why Elminster isn't available when you need him. And if your party gets a reputation for cock-blocking him maybe he doesn't want to help you out.

[Omegonthesane]

...requiring them to not wander around murdering enormous numbers of things in each other's territories...

You act like you've identified a "space for adventure" where high level characters don't prevent or diminish low level adventures.

Despite having described by omission one fucking giant elephant in the room of your plan that stomps all the fuck over it.

Now read the quote. Think for a minute. Who did you still allow for as a high level entity to turn up in which territories?

At the end of the day, low level adventures are just that - low level. If your mandate is that the party's quest has to be the most important thing going on in the whole entire world, then sure, it's diminishing to explain that King Levelfifteen totally could delegate his kingly duties to his follower Viscount Aristocratlevelfour while he goes and wipes your party's asses for them. Which means [adlibbing Tolkien for cultural relevance] you can only tell The Lord of the Rings, never The Hobbit or half of the Silmarillion [or alternately, you can only tell Star Wars: The Original Trilogy, and never Rogue One or The Mandalorian or Dark Forces]. The more reasonable position is to mandate that your adventures draw the attention of high level adventurers only if you are already high level enough to come out of a hostile encounter alive. Because it is reasonable to assume that high level adventurers are Doing Things, whether that means advancing projects that require their undivided personal attention or whether that means conjuring Nalfeshnee to orally pleasure them because they got bored of Succubi.

I suppose that would also allow for escalation when that tradition breaks down and higher level NPCs start crossing borders.

Probably levels [ba dum tish] of escalation.

"You sent a 10th level agent, it's not an escalation for me to send my 10th level follower party to gank him."
"You let your eight headed hydra raid a village, I get to send my succubus to take the VIP back without this escalating any further."

In a years ago D&D campaign for which my ambition, frankly, far outstripped my mental capacities, I imagined an ever increasingly strong random encounter table justified by the idea that the background war that helped justify the adventure would intensify as the party gained levels, to the point that eventually one of the faction leaders - as well as a poorly foreshadowed ghoul queen of comparable level to all the faction leaders but with only her Leadership feats for company - would just be on the random encounter table waiting for them.

Personally I sort of lean towards the idea of high level NPCs tending to be stay at home/crypt/fortress monsters that brood in their lairs for hundres of years not doing much, or selfish elf lord types who just don't really care about what goes on outside their fortress. Yeah, you lot go deal with the orcs or whatever, have some low level junk, but I'll stay here.

(That has all sorts of other implications for the setting, of course)

Back when the Tippyverse was some new and exciting topic, the main criticism of it from these quarters was that a post scarcity utopia fashioned from a generous reading of the magical trap rules in 3.5 would first require that a whole bunch of high level wizards be immense altruists - or at least such visionaries as to make significant personal sacrifices - instead of spending all their time conjuring succubi, conjuring cocaine, and snorting the cocaine off the succubi.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

At the end of the day,

That's very tangential to the point I was making.

I don't disagree at the end of the day the solution for "creating an adventuring space" for lower level adventurers in a world that includes high level fuck you threats is to try and ensure there are there are things lower level adventurers care about that high level fuck you no chance at all characters DON'T. That through both mechanics and narrative you do your best to ensure that your player characters will only start caring about the same things as ultra high threats care about once they are themselves high enough level to start being competitive with those threats.

The point I was making however was a point about what was NOT a solution. The thing that Tussock was rambling on about. An elaborate excuse for high level threats not to fight each other and not to invade or care about territories that belong to OTHER high level threats.

Because it had the giant fucking obvious hole of doing zip the fuck all to prevent the high level threat caring about and intervening in their OWN personal territory. The point being Tussock proposed an elaborate solution to nothing the fuck at all.

Not only that... what the problem with high level threats definitely ISN'T is that they go and fight each other off screen from time to time. A cold war stalemate wasn't called for whatsoever the problem with high level threats was always their potential interaction with low level player characters. It was never about the rumors about Godzilla and Gamera making out wrestling in some far off city. In fact high level threats SHOULD fight each other, especially if player characters will one day BE high level threats. The actual problem was about Godzilla getting mad at a level 2 rogue for stealing a bag of discounted short swords from his personal item emporium and Gamera getting personally involved in local government politics about garbage collection in the suburb you live in. Both things they can do even if you come up with an elaborate cold war to force them to stay at home with nothing else to do all the time.

[tussock]

I was positing giving the PCs something to do that the high level folk could not in fact do. It's in the bit of my post you snipped out, you dick.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

I was positing giving the PCs something to do that the high level folk could not in fact do. It's in the bit of my post you snipped out, you dick.

No you didn't you idiot. Because when PCs go to another territory because their local territorial high level fuck you isn't allowed to "because long-winded excuses" the territorial high level fuck you local to their destination DOES turn up and fuck them over because your excuse DID NOT EXCLUDE THAT.

In fact your elaborate scenario kinda assumes they WILL dabble in things like minor local invasions because your stupid excuse RULES OUT other higher level activities they COULD be keeping busy with like actually interacting with each other instead. In fact. The ONLY thing your excuse ruled out was a massive chunk of the activities that could keep high level fuck you's busy with each other so they didn't have time on their hands to bother with the small time stuff.

Dumb ass.

[tussock]

Lol. Phonelobster, did you really just suggest the problem with giving PCs things to do is that the BBEG will immediately know about that, know when and where they are, and take the time to kill them? Because, fuck that is a terrible argument.

Mwahahaha, yes I teleported in when you crossed the border, mortals, because you were sent at the behest of my neighbour to do something that advantages them and doesn't really hurt me at all, so DIE!!!!! And quickly, because there's a few other trade caravans I need to nuke, JUST IN CASE!!!!

I mean, games could have rules where you don't do that, but, like, who the fuck does that? There's always big bads about, man, take a fuckin' pill.

[Kaelik]

It's really fun when tussock doesn't even understand his own posts.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

Lol. Phonelobster, did you really just suggest the problem with giving PCs things to do is that the BBEG will immediately know about that, know when and where they are, and take the time to kill them? Because, fuck that is a terrible argument.

You, as in not me, you, just proposed a solution to this problem you are now dismissing as a stupid problem for stupid people... in order to defend your solution to it!

I think you know that. Well. On some limited level.

I'm just baffled that you seem to think no one else noticed.

[tussock]

Fucking hell.

The fucking thread title is right there when you post replies.

What is your favourite kind of high level "friendly" NPC?

Like, ... what is even the point. Bunch of fuckwits.

[Kaelik]

CF:

It kind of makes sense for high level NPCs to be in a state of détente. Where they're regularly talking so they don't kill each other, and the talks have in fact resulted in a few peace agreements, requiring them to not wander around murdering enormous numbers of things in each other's territories.

But where, obviously, they all cheat like fuck and send low level "spies" and such to do a bit of killing of whoever desperately needs it. So there's a Red Dragon fucking around just across the border, boss NPC can't do it because that would be war, but trade caravan guards? Sweet as, they can deal with imminent threats as they go, all within the treaties, just carry something the Dragon wants.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

Also. Tussock, because each and every post you make seems to act as if it is completely disconnected from all things around it, including other posts you make.

The fucking thread title is right there when you post replies.

What is your favourite kind of high level "friendly" NPC?

I was positing giving the PCs something to do that the high level folk could not in fact do. It's in the bit of my post you snipped out, you dick.

Just ah, forgot that one already then hey. Just 2 of your own posts ago, slipped right out of mind as you opened your mouth.

[Aryxbez]

If I'm going to do a DM-Penis character, I usually have them doing background stuff, or if they are doing something in the adventure, it still includes the PC's in some way. Maybe they're holding off a powerful threat that showed up, while the PC's handle the rabble, or the NPC needs the PC's to guard him while he completes a complex ritual. Another, is they show up, do something awesome that lets the PC's progress, while they then handle the rabble for the PC's to get to the Boss Fight (Or maybe they have to go back before the Dick Wizards show up, return to Power Battery, or to guard a thing).

Else, I try to involve an NPC as little as possible, as my focus is on the PC's, and I will quite frankly forget they're there as I focus on more important things (AKA running the game).

Watching the Viva La Dirt League DnD thingy, and one thing that happened was a High Level NPC had 6 missions that needed doing, gave a brief description of them and let the players choose 3, while the NPC would complete the other 3 off-screen. Which was interesting and allowed the players to decide what they wanted to do (or didn't want to do), though it means making 3 missions you won't use, or will re-use later on without giving the players a choice.

If you present it In-between sessions, as something to end a session on, you could simply prepare the 3 Missions the Party actually goes on, saving yourself time on doing the other 3. Conceptually, the other 3 missions existed as something ye would've fully fleshed out, but with the DM-Penis stamping those, ye can save yourself time.

It kind of makes sense for high level NPCs to be in a state of détente. Where they're regularly talking so they don't kill each other, and the talks have in fact resulted in a few peace agreements, requiring them to not wander around murdering enormous numbers of things in each other's territories.

So the issue they're pointing out, is that "spies" (AKA PC's, and other lower level rabble), barely works, as Just because you're no longer in High Level NPC A's Territory, High Level NPC B, could still insert his Penis on you. NPC A isn't going to care about what happens on his Rival's own turf, as he is allowed to rule it as he pleases (or at least how they mutually agreed). I'm assuming you're also placing the premise that low level threats don't bother themselves at all, its accepted as a regular thing, but only in aggregate, or a major threat shows up, they get displeased with each other and start doing the Favor Economy.

[Neo Phonelobster Prime]

If I'm going to do a DM-Penis character, I usually have them doing background stuff, or if they are doing something in the adventure, it still includes the PC's in some way. Maybe they're holding off a powerful threat that showed up, while the PC's handle the rabble, or the NPC needs the PC's to guard him while he completes a complex ritual. Another, is they show up, do something awesome that lets the PC's progress, while they then handle the rabble for the PC's to get to the Boss Fight (Or maybe they have to go back before the Dick Wizards show up, return to Power Battery, or to guard a thing).

So the basic questions.

First of all "How often?". Because you can get away with all sorts of bad decisions as a GM. Sometimes. And there are all sorts of contexts that can make it OK, but the first context required to MAYBE get away with exactly this is "It is incredibly rare". And you start the description with "Usually" which bodes poorly.

Second of all "Why?". What is this bringing to the game, every event that happens is one you put there, you are in control of the events. None of this had to happen as you describe. Generally in story telling "go I will hold them off" with a more powerful character is mostly to hype up the held off threat for a later encounter. So what's the turn around on that when this happens "usually"? Players have limited patience and attention spans, and if the holding off character IS off the charts for the PCs and the held off threat is more than them... what sort of turn around CAN there be? You can hype up the final bosses of the campaign in the first adventure like, once maybe, that isn't "usually".

And the biggest subsection of "Why?" is why is it a "DM-Penis" character? Couldn't a regular NPC ranging from the same level as PCs to about the value of a high level but acceptable threat for the party perform every single role you described and do it better? With more available choices and less threat of the game exploding if the Players make a choice? If it were just a somewhat powerful NPC in the role then those events that you seem to oddly want "usually" actually CAN happen more often. So... why not do that? Why the penis insertion? Whats that all about?

[Aryxbez]

Why the penis insertion? Whats that all about?

Welcome to The Gaming Den Phonelobster, we use that term to refer to NPC's of this kind as "self-insertion" or "DM-Penis", to represent how they're an extension of the DM's ego typically. As been shown in most cases, while its acceptable the world has other Powerful individuals, showcasing them in the context of other more important characters (The PC's) is essentially Showing off or the DM presenting his Ego.

First of all "How often?". Because you can get away with all sorts of bad decisions as a GM. Sometimes. And there are all sorts of contexts that can make it OK, but the first context required to MAYBE get away with exactly this is "It is incredibly rare". And you start the description with "Usually" which bodes poorly.

Second of all "Why?". What is this bringing to the game, every event that happens is one you put there, you are in control of the events. None of this had to happen as you describe. Generally in story telling "go I will hold them off" with a more powerful character is mostly to hype up the held off threat for a later encounter. So what's the turn around on that when this happens "usually"? Players have limited patience and attention spans, and if the holding off character IS off the charts for the PCs and the held off threat is more than them... what sort of turn around CAN there be? You can hype up the final bosses of the campaign in the first adventure like, once maybe, that isn't "usually".

And the biggest subsection of "Why?" is why is it a "DM-Penis" character? Couldn't a regular NPC ranging from the same level as PCs to about the value of a high level but acceptable threat for the party perform every single role you described and do it better? With more available choices and less threat of the game exploding if the Players make a choice? If it were just a somewhat powerful NPC in the role then those events that you seem to oddly want "usually" actually CAN happen more often. So... why not do that? Why the penis insertion? Whats that all about?

I might do it once per Major Story-Arc that I had running at the time, else a campaign before it I only did it once. That is fair on "Usually", I meant that's what I would do if I was going to do it, and the "Else" part is the default assumption when I'm running a game.

My Players are pretty casual-fair, so they don't really mind having "Cutscenes" (as they dubbed it) where a cool thing happens, and they move on. They seemed generally ok with it, one of the times ended up being showcased as an "All-Time Favorite" Adventure that I ran. That it served as a nice climax for the adventure, but wasn't soley good "because: DM-Penis", it just served its purpose for that scene.

It seems you're asking "why use a High Level NPC vs one of Equal Level-+4" in dffierence? I think people use Higher Level NPC's as its easier to get access to the HIgh Level Spells, or when certain Abilities come online. It doesn't help that Tabletop RPG's make a lot of non-caster stuff less accessible till later on, so if you use someone more "Fighty-Man" Inclined, you may have to climb that hill a few levels higher to get to it (Even with [Tome] Classes).

Anyway, the argument that it's a bad thing, needs to be avoid being spammed is a good way to open up on the subject. I think an acceptable use, It has to serve to it still being about what the PC's are doing, and they're not being put into the background as a result. The DM-Penis NPC, if its there, needs to serve its purpose, and to be put into the background (if not gone) as soon as possible.

You can hype up the final bosses of the campaign in the first adventure like, once maybe, that isn't "usually".

I think you bring up an interesting discussion point, is how often can one use this technique in a campaign? Given most offenders of this are going to do it in the worst ways possible, or do it without considering the actual abilities of the NPC (which case sounds like that rate should be: Never).