Where do we go from here?

[Eikre]

Sorry, mates, I'm all outta apocalypse posting energy, Something Awful just had its own succession crisis.

I guess I'm not shocked, but I am dimly surprised that the house brand of acerbic catharsis actually started getting to people. I guess I've never deigned to wade in too deeply to the sectarian slapfighting, because the Den has always been a chill place for me; the game opinions are cool and the chuds get run outta town.

Nothing constructive to add. I love all of you and offer nothing but sweet cock-flavored succor in the shade of my barrel. I will miss Frank and but will continue to cherish Kaelik. Tzor can continue to go fuck himself, wherever he is.

[Zinegata]

...

A couple of things you're missing:

1. Frank is the _original_ Den Alpha Male by Ranting to begin with. And that kind of shit is in fact toxic which is why Frank also attacked and drove off his fair share of people. Koumei isn't wrong that Frank drove off CeilingCat, the thing is some people here don't want to admit they actually sided with Frank at that time.

My point is that's what everyone _left_ here is actually emulating that sort of toxic behavior. Lago's right in saying that a lot of the people here are up in their asses with the memory of a goldfish, and that the world has changed to be a scarier place.

His only error is thinking that people here have higher causes or callings driving their behavior. That they are now awakened and want to fight for the right causes and Frank was just left behind.

The reality is far simpler and more childish: The world just changed to be a scarier, less safe place - so predictably everyone is turning on each other faster and more nastily. They don't want to feel powerless, so to try and seize "control" they try to play their Alpha Male games harder.

Most of the people just don't want to deal with that kind of toxicity anymore so they leave.

In the case of Frank, he knows he's in large part responsible for the Den's current state. That's going to weigh more on him than any meaningless impotent political ranting.

2. No, dipshit. Frank's authority stemmed from the fact he actually had a couple of actual cool variants to 3.X which people actually used, and had entertaining rants to justify their use. He wasn't even a doctor yet when he started posting here. Moreover, his freelance work arguably did more to strip the Den of credibility rather than enhance it - as it marked Frank as someone who did not play well with others and made it easy for other forums to dismiss The Den.

And yes, he made up a fuckton of crap along the way. I know because Frank and I never got along to begin with, and he was always just full of bluster when we interacted.

But as Lago said, people here have the memory of a fucking goldfish. This is why most of you don't remember that I used to be politically way to the right (far more to the right than Frank), and that you all fucking dogpiled on me all the time with Frank at the lead.

And yet near the end I was actually defending Frank because I pretty much realized that people were now dogpiling on him for even less severe political differences (it was basically "far left" and "pragmatic left"); and unsurprisingly all the people at the head of the pack gnawing on him were all just bluster too.

3. It ain't hypocrisy, because I have no desire to be anyone's new Alpha Male here.

I'm just saying what's actually happened here. Everyone tried to be the fucking Alpha Male by Ranting. Its toxic and unsustainable. In the end there can only be One and that ain't a forum.

That you write fanfiction about me when I couldn't give two shits about your gender politics or beliefs (I'm not even aware how you identified anymore before you started accusing me of "misgendering") is again just you lashing out over your own fucking issues.

Nobody knows your issues Prak. Much less a bunch of strangers on the Internet who don't know the first thing about you.

That you always pretty much open any conversation bringing up your own shit that nobody knows about, and most people can't be bothered to care about, is precisely the kind of toxic Alpha Male by Ranting behavior that's pretty much turned this place into a ghost town.

Learn to be actually sure of yourself no matter how badly the world goes to shit or how badly other people treat you. Its called fucking growing up, a thing a lot of the remnants here never learned.

[Prak]

Hm, alas, the last time you misgendered me was in a politics thread, so I can't give an actual quote, but you've done it before. I've mentioned I'm trans. Do you want me to put it in my sig so you can remember, asshat? It's not a matter of being sure of oneself, or growing up, shitbag, it's matter of you repeatedly exhibiting transphobic behaviour, and then whatabouting when you're called out on it, and further insulting the person.

[HerrMetik]

It's not a matter of being sure of oneself, or growing up, shitbag, it's matter of you repeatedly exhibiting transphobic behaviour, and then whatabouting when you're called out on it, and further insulting the person.

No. It's not. Grow up. Get over yourself. Sheesh.

I specifically made this account to tell you this. Zinegata referenced Frank Trollman's shtick of being the nastiest, most aggressive, most putting-you-down kind of person around. Zinegata fittingly called this behaviour "Alpha-Male Behaviour", because it certainly fits the common perception of, well, alpha-male behaviour.

Other people in the Den have mimicked it. Made a pissing contest out of it. To accuse people of "trying to be alpha males" is not, in fact, misgendering. It is an accurate description of the actions of people who mimick "the alpha male" and thus, try to to take the position of alpha males. The "alpha male" in this context has nothing to do with genitalia, or identification with gender roles. It is not about gender. It is about a position within the social hierarchy of a group, and about behaviour displayed towards and received by other members of a group. It is about a set of behaviours that are comonly labeled "alpha-male" and can be expressed by any sex, gender, or combination thereof.

Personally, I believe that it is a poor choice of words to call this kind of behaviour "alpha-male", but that is besides the point. I would instead think that "mimicking Frank's assholish demeanor" is a more precise, and fitting, way to describe this, but that's again besides the point. Instead, the point is: Those remarks were not about gender, you are making it about gender, and about yourself. It's not. Grow up. Get over yourself.

P.S.: I really like your opening remarks in this thread, and I believe your analysis of the overall situation is quite correct - even if I vehemently opposed you just now.
P.P.S.: Uh, hi there, The Gaming Den. I certainly picked a kinda prickly way for my debut, especially in the context of "is this place to confrontational" and all that, but it is what it is. *shrug*

[PhoneLobster]

Actually the use of Alpha Male is basically a stamp of a stupid person who's understanding of sociology and basic human social dynamics is mired in misinterpretations and misrepresentations of a single ancient study on the behavior of wolves limited specifically to unrelated wolves in captivity that the author themselves regards as not credible or relevant.

Using the term at all uncritically is a huge red flag that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about.

I might suggest. I know this is incredibly god damn outlandish, but just maybe...

Frank did not invent being angry about games on the internet. Everyone else being angry about games on the internet isn't copying him, what are you a god damn child? It's a fucking generation wide phenomenon.

The gaming den was just identifiable as a place you could go to say things about a specific type of games you weren't allowed to in other places in ways you weren't allowed to say them in other places. And so the people who wanted to do that came here.

And the person to credit for that is fbmf, who specifically created this forum with exactly that intention in mind. Frank had a role in that creation as part of a prehistoric instigating incident even I don't recall the details of but fbmf made a forum for a certain sort of poster and a certain sort of poster gathered. A great success in it's own terms really.

This isn't rocket science and it's definitely not discredited prison wolf science.

Mod Edit: Corrected the spelling of my handle.

[Prak]

Hey, HerrMetik, get fucked. You're really fucking taking an interesting choice of path on your introduction here.

Now, is there a debate that could be had about whether I'm maybe being a tad touchy about being called an "alpha male wannabe?" Sure, that debate could be had. But that's not what y'all chose to do here. Zine, instead of saying "ok, poor choice of words," doubled down on his assholery, and you chose to come in and agree with him.

So, welcome to the Den, get fucked, "Herr."

[Grek]

The term 'alpha male' is an idiom. It no more endorses a specific model of wolf pack psychology than 'bite the bullet' endorses conducting surgical procedures without anesthetic. Calling someone an 'wannabe alpha male' is saying that they're being a loud asshole who tries to prove their social dominance by being rude and blustering toward anyone who challenges their purported authority. It has a male connotation since both men and male animals were assumed to be the ones who would display that sort of behavior at the time the term was coined, but in these modern and enlightened times we recognize that anyone can declare themselves Top Shit of Shit Mountain, regardless of gender and start flinging shit downhill based on how subordinate someone's tone is rather than any content disagreements.

I would consider that to be a fair description of how Frank used to conduct himself on this forum when people would disagree with his views. And of how Prak is behaving in this thread whenever anyone challenges their views.

E: Updated to reflect Prak's stated preference for they/them pronouns.

[Mord]

The irony of Prak making performative displays of aggression over what are very transparently old grievances with another poster in the very thread in which we're discussing how performative aggression and old grievances have killed the forum is sweeter than the finest wine.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I'm not gonna lie, I thought Frank's going away rant was hilarious. Don't misunderstand me, the man has done more good in his life than I could do in a thousand and I deeply respect his accomplishments in real life. That being said I couldn't help but read "this community swimming pool used to be a great place to shit in before everyone else started shitting in it". Wow, having the slightest deviation from the norm be used as evidence to accuse you of being a white nationalist isn't fun when you're the one doing it? Quick, someone call Ripley's!

Actually the use of Alpha Male is basically a stamp of a stupid person who's understanding of sociology and basic human social dynamics is mired in misinterpretations and misrepresentations of a single ancient study on the behavior of wolves limited specifically to unrelated wolves in captivity that the author themselves regards as not credible or relevant.

So basically the whole "alpha male" thing is based off of wolf prison gangs? Makes sense actually. I don't have an argument, I just wanted to make that observation.

The irony of Prak making performative displays of aggression over what are very transparently old grievances with another poster in the very thread in which we're discussing how performative aggression and old grievances have killed the forum is sweeter than the finest wine.

Prak's a hypocrite. He was completely silent for years while posters here threw constant ableist abuse at me, but I use the term "sperg" and he starts a goddamn witch hunt. He's not a leftist because he wants all people to be equal, he's a leftist because he's an authoritarian and wants to control people.

And that's why the left lost in 2016, and that's why we're going to have Trump until 2024. You fuckers are so obsessed with trying to detect any shred of noncompliant thought so you can label people as Nazis, or TERFs, or Fascists. "Oh, she held her hand a certain way, THAT'S A NAZI DOGWHISTLE! REEEEEEE!" "Oh, this guy said that there weren't a lot of blacks in 15th century Bohemia. Clearly he's a cryptofascist REEEEEEEEEE!" "Oh, this person doesn't think people who deny scientists are going to listen to some millionaire's bratty teenaged daughter. MUST BE MISOGYNY REEEEEEEEE!" "Oh, this hack writer said she didn't like the idea of a trans woman who was convicted of raping multiple women who was sent to a women's prison and continued to rape women in prison should be in a woman's prison. She also said men don't menstruate. SHE'S A TERF REEEEEEEEEEE!"

You know why there's so many racists out in the open now? Because you dumbasses have been shrieking nonstop over stupid shit and the rest of us have tuned you out. So now if someone sane says "Say, I think that bald chap doing the roman salute and waving the confederate flag might be a racist" everyone's first impulse is to tune that person out because they're exhausted from being shrieked at all day.

[Kaelik]

Prak's a hypocrite. He was completely silent for years while posters here threw constant ableist abuse at me, but I use the term "sperg" and he starts a goddamn witch hunt. He's not a leftist because he wants all people to be equal, he's a leftist because he's an authoritarian and wants to control people.

You fuckers are so obsessed with trying to detect any shred of noncompliant thought so you can label people as Nazis, or TERFs, or Fascists.

While I would hope no one would mistake you for a TERF, since you should never be mistaken for a feminist, one solution to avoid being called a transphobe is to do the minimum possible required to not misgender someone you are specifically mocking for posts where they asked to be gendered correctly.

[Grek]

Seriously, Count? What the fuck.

[Prak]

y'know, count, I'm pretty sure I defended you in the past here.

Shame to see that was a fucking mistake.

[Dean]

No politics is a perfectly reasonable rule for these parts. I consider myself more of a defensive fighter in that arena and generally only become involved when someone has been acting fucked for a long time, so it does nothing but save me effort and energy to not have to watch for that shit.

I reject the premise that "The Den" is in a death spiral cause people have been saying that for the better part of a decade. I've been in a lot of RPG forums and there's nothing special about the Dens decreased activity from the 3E heyday to now. The den still existing means it's doing better than most forums I used to be in. There's nothing special about the Den having less consistent RPG content being created by fans because the actual RPG companies aren't creating content anymore. It was easier to make content when there was a new book someone worked on every two months you could write about or comment on. Like, honestly, Mearls produces one book every 2 years called Flortimers Tome of Objects and Nouns and it's a bunch of old grocery lists and reviews of scrubs episodes he liked. If I spend 3 months critiquing and improving it then I'm the one who's an asshole cause it's a book of nothing made by a man who hates me. No one cares about 5E cause the people making 5e don't give a shit about it.

I happen to know that myself and several other people (Kaelik, Chamomile, AA, etc) are working very hard on RPG content but as people come closer and closer to producing full books it becomes less valuable to crowdsource general fluff questions and shit, which is the sort of light content that people like to read and respond to.

So basically there is a primary content vacuum which is causing a secondary content vacuum and the solution (to make more primary content) is much more effortful so you're seeing less posting. If anyone is super horny to make content I would be happy to work with anyone here but crafting whole subsystems and settings is more suited to small groups writing with each other than forums with hundreds of people giving passing commentary.

The den's fine, I liked reading Franks fluff and domain ideas these last couple years but won't miss having to read his MPSIMS stuff. Whatever, life moves on.

[owlassociate]

Wow, people are claiming the term "alpha male" is not gendered language despite a gender being half of the entire phrase. Just so you all know, you can actually just say the word "alpha" and it gets the exact same point across, but in a gender neutral way. But sure, go ahead and passionately defend transphobic microaggressions instead of going the much easier route of admitting you made a tiny mistake and didn't actually mean to misgender people. You're totally not engaging in the exact same dickish behaviour you're so clearly against.

[owlassociate]

So, I feel like now that I've been provoked into posting in this thread, I should try to contribute to the main topic.

My position is that I'm really not here for deep political discussion, but I can't deny that almost everything is inherently political. I think a no politics rule is kind of weird though, like where do you draw the line? Is my last post too political for that rule? Prak and I are just trying to defend trans people from prejudice. Are the posts that provoked it too political? Who exactly is in trouble if this rule gets implemented? And stuff like that is going to come up in threads that aren't even intentionally political. I feel like a blanket rule like "no politics" is really only going to favor some political views over others and, while I have faith in fbmf, I feel like posters here should have the right to defend themselves and others from the various forms of violence (racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, etc) that permeate the internet.

As for making intentionally political threads however, I think that we as a community have proven it's entirely unproductive to the board. Yeah, that's a privilege we've lost.

[JigokuBosatsu]

I think one point that bears repeating is "thank you, fbmf."

[Thaluikhain]

I think one point that bears repeating is "thank you, fbmf."

Second that.

[Prak]

I think one point that bears repeating is "thank you, fbmf."

Second that.

Absolutely

[fbmf]

You’re welcome.

Game On,
fbmf

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

I'm not really sure where else to ask this, but since people are already talking about him... what happened to Frank's username? I was reading an old thread and got confused for a second.
I'm almost reminded of that one guy who went back and like, deleted the content of every post he'd ever made.

[Thaluikhain]

Also, when did that happen? Didn't notice that until you mentioned it.

[GnomeWorks]

So basically there is a primary content vacuum which is causing a secondary content vacuum and the solution (to make more primary content) is much more effortful so you're seeing less posting. If anyone is super horny to make content I would be happy to work with anyone here but crafting whole subsystems and settings is more suited to small groups writing with each other than forums with hundreds of people giving passing commentary.

Since I started running 5e, I've been tinkering with converting a bunch of my 3e homebrew to it, because my setting pretty much requires a ton of extra shit, and it's not like Mearls is going to get off his lazy ass and produce anything worth a damn.

I've been relying on various 5e discord communities to assist with that, but it's been less than ideal.

However, I absolutely wouldn't post it here. There's no reason to. Back in the day when I first showed up here, I was excited to talk about my ideas and ask questions and learn from folk, because Frank's thoughts on game design were what led me here.

Then I got shat on left and right constantly, with the aforementioned acerbic responses. And sure, it's part of the community and all that, but honestly? It's fucking exhausting to deal with, especially when it isn't followed with anything resembling "and this is how you could do better."

Nope, just: eat a barrel of cocks, your ideas are shit, turtles all the way down.

I'd already been coming here less and less, and I'm sure that strongly correlates to the increasing dearth of useful discussion. The constant injection of politics everywhere hasn't helped.

I'll probably continue to poke my nose in here every now and again - there is a ton of useful stuff to reference, from back in the day - but I don't expect I'll be posting here again.

[owlassociate]

GnomeWorks, I actually would be interested in your 5e homebrew since its what everyone I know is playing. Is there a way I could get my hands on it? Promise I won't shit on it, anything I don't like I'll just change myself.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Most of my online tabletop communities are Discord based these days. I'd also be interesting seeing what you've been coming up for 5E, since I started a campaign earlier this year and am still trying to get a handle on what to change/add.

If you don't want to share material here, maybe you could PM links to a thread on another forum?

[Mask_De_H]

Echoing the thanks to fbmf.

I've been working on homebrew for the better part of 2-3 years, but it's for Fate.