Property Rules

[Pedantic]

How about the inverse? Alabaster has an abstracted "Wealth" mechanic and discrete currency. Wealth sets your lifestyle level, and you can bring it to bear against purchases every so often per adventure or week or whatever as a massive modifier to base price or haggle checks or something.

The other cool idea that game had, was using wealth as a modifier to stuff. So, a car has a basic model/price and basic stats, but then your wealth is used to modify those stats, representing that you bought a nice car with a bigger engine and better features.

[PhoneLobster]

Alabaster has...

Both concepts seem loosely fine in principle.

However though the vengeful ghost of D20Modern makes me fear that if I could be bothered looking it up it would be a trainwreck in actual practice.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

Well, the PDF is free, so looking it up isn't too hard.

I just did a CTRL+F search to glance over the book, and it does sound cool. I find having a Wealth stat and a Lifestyle separate from one another to be a bit weird, though. If Wealth just sets your Lifestyle anyway, but you still have monthly costs to maintain that Lifestyle, why not just roll them into the same statistic?

Letting you divide costs by your Wealth stat is pretty neat, though. It's less arbitrary than letting people just pull items straight from their assholes, but I think I'm still in favor of the latter, because "I totally bought this when we were back in town and not just now " is something they're probably going to do anyway. Having it straight-up give you bonuses to certain skill checks also seems pretty cool, too.

PL, could you tell me more about how awful D20Modern was in this regard? I know that system had all sorts of issues, but I've never encountered them myself.

[PhoneLobster]

I don't remember the exact details of the d20Modern wealth system, in that I don't remember the exact numbers involved in exploiting it. Also looking at it now like half of d20modern it looks suspiciously like it got a post release online resource only edit that didn't help but did obfuscate matters. But the basic problems were fairly stark and seem to remain.

It was a pretty reasonable example of abstraction with loosely good intentions that was implemented in a lazy way that ended up making things worse than just tracking actual cash wealth totals.

The writers didn't want you tracking cash. They were probably worried about bank accounts, credit cards, loans, investments, rent, interest, things like that.

So they decided "What if you had an abstract wealth value and sort of just GOT stuff with it in a non-cash balance kinda way".

In principle that's sort of doable. "Hi I have a wealth number of 11, that means I can just HAVE the following gear kit out without doing even basic math and just by taking anything I want under 11" WOULD have been fairly fine.

But, of course, they couldn't help themselves, they had to make their abstract bonus more complex, and a BIT like a cash balance, but not entirely like one at the same time.

Because it could decrease under certain mildly complex conditions in certain variable ways. And then in turn increase under mildly complex conditions in certain variable ways. Oh, and purchasing wasn't just comparing a number it was MAKING A ROLL. Oh and purchasing might take time, and that time could easily be like well over a month for a single item if you ever "take 20" on a wealth check.

Anyway. The problem was you could lose wealth by buying things over your raw Wealth bonus, which you could easily do taking 10 on the roll (or just you know, rolling average amounts).

And then you could sell things and gain wealth. And there was a small resale penalty. But it was way smaller than the rolls contribution to the wealth result.

And the amount you lost or gained wasn't a fixed amount. It was an amount determined compared to your CURRENT wealth value.

So you would buy and immediately resell items and by being careful about the order you did that in you would resell an item for a higher wealth bonus change than you bought it for. There were a few rolls involved but the numbers were weighted in your favor and it just meant more administration for what was largely an inevitable wealth gain.

There were various cut offs where some of the systems more or less charitable er... wealth modifier modifiers... cut in or out that meant it was much easier to do the wealth dance before certain levels but it did basically go to infinity.

Oh and it made giving out wealth awards and item drops that players might resell a total god damn mess and if you actually looked at it reselling relatively basic loot might break the wealth system and a finding suitcase full of cash was a mysterious and unbalancing enigma. Largely because the granularity of the values involved in the Wealth value and the increments it modified by and the games insistence that beyond a relatively early point item sales/purchases MUST modify the wealth value PER ITEM. And the only damned absolute value the system felt needed not to be tied to a relative comparison to your current wealth was a MINIMUM purchase/resale value for items over wealth check DC 15 to purchase.

So even if you forbid the wealth dance exploit players just trying to play the game relatively normally ALSO have to be forbidden from reselling the enemies guns because almost all of those would increase character wealth by a minimum of 1 each, and a tank was only purchase DC 47 so if the GM wasn't careful and threw like 20 enemies at you that used Uzi's in moderately good resale condition you could just cash them in and spend a month on EBay and come out with a god damn Tank.

Oh you said tanks are restricted? Fine its a black market ebay and the DC is 50, also the uzis are only 1 less point restricted to so that very slightly helps their resale value.

What you want to pretend that's not how restrictions and black markets officially worked? Well then fine I'm selling 10-20 desktop PCs and buying a god damned Lear Jet. That's all civilian.

Oh and did I mention that the plan to sell 10-20 descktop PCs for a lear jet probably doesn't care much about your starting wealth walking into it because of the thing where if you start lower the first PCs you sell will be worth like WAY more?

Anyway. The system was constant trouble doing weird shit and with all the rolls and odd little mechanical break points and modifiers pretty annoying to administer too. Just counting cash would have been simpler and better.

Or you know. If they wanted to abstract wealth down to a two digit number they could have decided to just not have it constantly changing with every time you purchased a god damn formal suit or a GPS.

[PhoneLobster]

Actually wait. I looked up the d20modern online resources. Did some reckoning and uh...

The D20Modern Wealth Dance
According to d20Modern this is the cool dance all the kids should be doing.

So basically for context the base mechanic is "buy items by making a skill check with what might as be your Wealth skill, only your wealth skill might go down based on the DC of the wealth check, and might go up if you sell stuff".

Step 1: Do not have Zero Wealth
Zero wealth is bad. You can’t make wealth checks, the difference between 1 and 0 is maybe buying one thing of up to Wealth DC 21. Lose that last point and you can't buy ANYTHING.

You can lose it by buying anything over wealth DC 2, so for instance ONE FAST FOOD MEAL IS DC 2 and drives you bankrupt, exactly as bankrupt as the black market HK MP5K submachine gun you COULD have bought instead at the same price as a happy meal... whaaat....

Fortunately you start with more Wealth than 1.

Also. Just sell something. Almost anything. Ever. A hand bag is enough to get you one wealth.

437 hand bags will get to ... also one wealth. But they can keep getting you back there for a long time, HINT.

Step 2: Receive Starting Wealth
You start with 2d4 + Profession bonus +1 if you put any Ranks in Profession skill.

You can also get bonus wealth by taking a Windfall feat or two for +3 Wealth bonus each time AND +1 cumulative bonus to your profession checks (but not ranks so no minuscule double dipping on wealth advancement from level ups). Do not do this.

Anyway someone in the party is a “Dilettante” who also invested in Profession Skill (presumably at being a “Dilettante”) with at least one rank. Then they rolled max on their starting wealth and walk in with 15 Wealth. And they didn’t even waste that feat on it.

And someone else in your party is a “Rural” who didn’t put ranks in “yes I really am a farmer for almost accounting purposes only unless I put ranks in other things too”. Then they rolled minimum on their starting wealth and walk in with 3 Wealth.

Step 3: Spending Your Starting Wealth Like A Normal Person Apparently
Everything that is both under your Wealth Score AND under purchase DC 15 is free. Everything over DC 15 costs you AT LEAST 1 point of your wealth score. Everything over your wealth score, even if that is under 15, costs you at least one (more) point of your wealth score, AND then more the more the DC exceeds your wealth score.

Pricing is, of course, stupid, and of course, does… things… around the DC 14/15 mark. So for instance without proper license all guns* will be at minimum just barely DC 15, but WITH licenses… some guns will be barely DC 14, but only pistols (and one shot grenade launchers), so the rich guy with a gun license can buy his army infinite pistols (and one shot grenade launchers) but NOT infinite rifles. Also some pointless items like formal suits are DC 15, so no infinite formal suits for the army of goons either.

If the Dilettante somehow has the right license they can buy infinite Derringers, Tec-9s, and M17 Grenade Launchers without influencing their Wealth Score, but is one feat short of any chance of even trying to buy 1 Lamborgine. And if they instead just go one point up on the wealth DC for weapons they will drive themselves to total bankruptcy by buying less than 15 AK-47s OR less than 15 Formal Suits..

Meanwhile the “Rural” loses a wealth point if they buy 1 “club”. They could also buy a knife, but they WILL have to roll for that. They COULD afford up to wealth 23 on their first purchase, but anything of DC 14 or higher will probably wipe their ENTIRE Wealth to zero in a single purchase, though if they exceed 14 they can just let the minimum zero rule eat it. So they can buy a derringer and a license for it but then they don’t have money left for clothes. OR they were smart and bought Casual Clothes FIRST and then they can have a gun license AND a gun AND be wearing the cheapest clothes suit in the game (AND NOTHING ELSE). Hell if they get the order wrong they can even end up with the gun and no clothes AND no gun license. But don’t get too caught up on buying clothes when you are poor anyway because 3 changes of the cheapest clothing in the game would drive your "Rural" bankrupt.

*What’s up with Colt Pythons? Anyway there is a Colt pistol inexplicably at purchase DC 5. Since it’s about as good as other pistols AND it’s description ALSO makes it a masterwork item and therefore actually better than comparable pistols on the list, I’m assuming that’s a typo and it was meant to be DC 15. So I’m ignoring it for comparisons.

Step 4: Also Gain Level Up Wealth like we will still care in five minutes
You will also get additional wealth on level ups based on your ranks in profession skill AND based on the actual result of a single Profession skill roll. The amount you gain is between 0(if you fail the check against your current wealth as the DC) and 1+1(per 5 ranks in profession)+1(per 5 points you exceed the DC).

The game usefully does not tell us whether you do this before or after applying skill rank changes for the level up.

If you are a level 1 going on level 2 doctor who started out with good wealth, But spent it all and is flat broke at zero. You put full ranks in profession (screw the actual healing related skills) had a solid wisdom 16 then rolled average on your wealth check on level up. Your level up gives you back… About 5 wealth. You go to the budget thrift store, buy five tracksuits. And you are broke again. OR you buy one Dirt Bike and you are broke again.

You get this check and variable performance based wage even if you have not even once been to your workplace as say a “Doctor” a “Military” or a “Rural” for your entire level of adventuring. We probably don’t care. But it’s a bit silly that the your “blue collar” character gets paid like that in variable time intervals that could be a day or a year long based on how quickly they are murdering crime lords in secret for the XP inside them.

Step 5: The Wealth Security Dance
Anyway. Before you get started on the full swing of the wealth dance, just in case you start with the wealth security dance.

Anything under OR Equal to your wealth AND under DC 15 to purchase is FREE. Some things you care about MIGHT drop your Wealth score. Selling things higher than your wealth score increases it by at least 1.

So up to purchase DC/Wealth score 14 you ALWAYS keep a stock of salable items of the highest price you can buy. And if your wealth ever drops lower than 3 points below what it was… it magically returns to that value automatically guaranteed. Because everyone keeps their garage stocked full of infinite numbers of free “Instrument, Percussion” (I like that you do this with drum kits) and that’s how everyone who has ever become “affluent” according to the chart invests their money to REMAIN “affluent” according to the chart.

Stocks and shares? I'm investing in a garage stuffed to the ceiling with percussion instruments for MY retirement.

Step 6: The Wealth Conga Line
The best versions of the wealth dance are danced with others.

Any friend of yours who has less than 15 wealth AND less than 3 less wealth than you… has three less wealth than you because you buy them infinite derringers and then they sell them (legally) until they have 11 wealth.

Step 7: The Wealth Dance
Wait a second. We can have guaranteed minimum renewable infinite wealth for values below 15 with the Wealth Security dance.

But wealth below 15 CAN buy items with purchase DC’s at or above 15.

And items with purchase DCs at or above 18, are guaranteed to resell for a minimum of +1 Wealth, often +2 or more.

In order to buy items at or above DC 18 we need to have a minimum of 1 Wealth. In order to use the wealth guarantee to insure we never have to permanently drop below 1 Wealth we need to have a minimum of 4 wealth.

The absolutely lowest wealth you can start the game with is 3.

So if you can beat that you buy and sell infinite numbers of drum kits so as to buy and sell infinite numbers of jet skis.

Only it’s not infinite numbers of them, it’s like one damned drum kit per jet ski. It’s actually not a large number. Especially when you can buy a black hawk helicopter without having to even roll the d20 for the wealth check once you get to wealth 46. That’s like what? Just 35 ski’s riding on drum kits, I couldn’t be assed to check or discuss varying starting points, because if it turns out it’s 43 it’s still a deal.

The only trick to it is get the order of purchases and sales right. If you start selling jet ski's early you are only wasting them, sell them all at the end, in between buying jet skis is when you sell the drum kits.

OK OK, so what about that poor “Rural” who rolled 3 wealth. Well if he isn’t in a party of “Rurals” that all rolled minimum wealth and didn’t put 1 Rank in Profession then the one “Rural” who put a rank in or rolled anything but ones Wealth Conga lines them to the wealth security 1 entry point with a car boot full of legally purchased free hand bags.

OR they just spend their three minimum wealth in this order -> 1 DC 8 item (a track suit), 1 DC 7 item (Steel Hand cuffs) and then when they have the least money left, 1 DC 18 Item (a black market HK MP5K submachine gun, wait wha..)

Then they sell them in this order -> Steel Hand-Cuffs +1 Wealth, Track suit +1 Wealth, Submachine gun +2d6+1 Wealth.

Or if you don’t like the black market and over shooting your goals in life you can go from 3 Wealth to 1d6+2 Wealth with a movie ticket a standard flash light and Personal Digital Assistant.

Look the point is that getting to the threshold where you can afford the infinite number of free Purchase DC 4 handbags required to guarantee eternal wealth 1 with the wealth security dance is easy. All you need to do is roll like a 15 on a 1d20 once and then less than minimum on one or two d6s once both with as many consequence free retries as you want.

Anyway there. Infinite wealth. Game broken. We didn't even do advanced math.

Step 8: The Wealth Charleston
Lets, uh, not do the advanced math, even now.

But. The regular wealth dance can step it up a few notches if you wanted to.

You can functionally reproduce a higher value version of the wealth security dance with value 15+ items with relatively minimal effort.

You also don’t HAVE to exploit the free to +1 purchase resale break point to raise Wealth. You can do it at the break points of -1 to +1d6+1 and the -1d6+1 to +2d6+1 and the -1 to +2d6+1 if you are fancy even.

Point is if you ever get sick of buying and selling hand bags, drum kits and jet skis, you can instead very profitably buy and resell Lear Jets and Dodge Neons to break the game with… basically the same tactic.

Step 9: Don’t pick up strange money suit cases
You don’t know where they have been. Or what they do. The game literally just says you might find valuable items (OH REALLY) and then that is a Wealth award (MY GOD) and… stops. It doesn’t say what it does and just refers you to an irrelevant general items subcategory in the item catalog.

I’d swear there used to be more. I mean. Not USEFULLY more, not UNBROKENLY more, but more. Well, online versions hey, like I want to walk to the other side of the room and find and open a book I own, what am I Ulysses?

So yeah you have infinite money. You don’t know how the cash briefcase works, it’s probably no better than stapling one or two drum kits to some jet skis, you don’t want to make anyone angry, maybe it’s lying in that pool of blood near a gun battle for a reason, it probably has a mother and you should probably leave it alone or turn it in to lost and found like a good citizen.

It's just not worth the trouble.

Step 10: The Money Slow Dance
OK so. You probably don’t do the money dance. I mean. Not really.

OK so you DO do it in that you always consider the implications of the money dance in the ORDER of your normal sales and purchases.

So you do things like always buy and sell from cheapest to most expensive and maybe consider that skipping some things for now at least might be more optimal than selling the lot. Hell you also remember that if you want to buy AND sell things you should probably intersperse your sales with purchases to get more over all purchases... Ignore that advice and THAT’S how you end up as a naked “Rural” with an unlicensed derringer.

But you don’t REALLY do the money dance not the full lambada. It breaks the game. People don’t like it when you do that. I mean it’s a pity that even when you don’t actively do the real money dance its components still sorta exist and do bad things like hurting the poor purchasing habits of rural nudists and making a buy and sell shopping trip into an elaborate game of towers of hanoi but there you go.

Step 11: Don’t Do The Money Walk Either
OK so you, mostly, don’t do the money dance. You probably don’t pick up strange cash brief cases.

You just want to try to behave. I mean you find a dirt bike and a pair of guns, you decide to sell them, seems fair. You remember to sell the dirt bike FIRST and make triple the wealth bonus than doing it the other way but it’s fine. Kinda.

Then what if you are a poor naked rural with an unlicensed derringer and you open up the abandoned barn and find like, 50 drum kits. You of course want to sell them on craigs list so you can afford a used track suit.

But um. You sell like 11 of them. And uh, you already hit wealth 11 and you are able to start buying cars instead. Hell. Sell all fifty and remember to buy cars IN BETWEEN instead of AT THE END and you have like what, give or take 10 cars? Certainly you could fill the barn with dirt bikes at the very least.

And now you accidentally are a naked rural with an unlicensed derringer and a barn full of yamaha dirt bikes and dodge neon economy sedans. And you probably forgot to buy a drivers license and the track suit again and now it’s too late even though both would have been free earlier in the transactions.

Worse what if you aren’t that naked rural pawning small stakes items. You are the wealth dilettante. And you don’t find a barn full of drum kits. You find a barn full of dirt bikes and shit cars defended only by a crazy naked guy with a derringer and no license for owning and trading in any of those things.

And don’t go giving me “greyhawking is bad” bullshit. You just want to sell some dirt bikes and used economy sedans. It’s not like you are selling the crumbling shingles off the barn roof. You put 10-20 dirt bikes on ebay and double your Diletantes already high wealth score. Then you buy a lear jet. And a track suit and all the gun/bike/car licenses you can eat.

Basically the existence of garage sales and craigs list breaks the d20 modern wealth system. Looting anything at all ever, breaks the d20 modern wealth system.

This isn’t a try hard situation. If anything NOT breaking it requires some effort.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

PL, that sounds so fucking stupid and obtuse that I cannot fathom how someone would make a system that buttfuckingly useless and broken without doing it deliberately. This all sounds so BLATANT, too. How did nobody fucking notice this? At no point does any of this sound even a little fun, aside from the comedy of selling 50 track suits to buy a plane.
It sounds like it would be trivial to come up with a wealth system that makes me less likely to want to kill myself. Christ, "buying items with skill checks". What the fuck.

[deaddmwalking]

It's bad, but you should be able to see where they're coming from.

If you're Jeff Bezos, there's virtually no amount of mundane objects you can buy and notice a difference to your bank account. Effectively, everything in a grocery store you can buy an infinite amount of and it doesn't impact your ability to buy a personal jet.

Even for Jeff Bezos, there's a limit to how many personal jets you can buy before it does start impact your ability to buy a new mansion. Effectively, personal jets are NOT an infinitely available resource the way fast-food meals are.

From a game perspective, having vast amounts of money can be a problem - there isn't as much incentive to go adventuring if you are already independently wealthy. But it also doesn't take too many personal jet sales to be able to get private island with hookers and blow money.