Action Points and such

[Talisman]

One thing D&D lacks, which I feel an RPG needs, is a way for the players to manipulate the vicissitudes of the dice. In D&D, you roll it and that's it; short of having the Luck domain, your only option is to pile on the bonuses and pray.

Most other RPGs have some dice-manipulation mechanic, such as Deadlands's fate chips, 7th Sea's drama dice, or Savage Worlds's bennies. d20 finally gave us action points in d20 Modern and Eberron, but is this enough?

I've used (and seen) several homebrew systems that attempt to address this issue, such as:

:arrow: One GM used Fate Chips instead of XP, a la Deadlands. You could turn in fate chips for XP, or spend them to manipulate die-rolls. There was an initial slowdown as everyone accumulated a stack-o-fate chips, then level-ups proceeded normally, except that everyone was nigh-invulnerable.

:arrow: Another GM gave each PC a 7th ability score: Luck. Your Luck score determined how many Luck Points you had, which could be spent to increase any roll you made.

:arrow: I tried using Hero Points. You start with none, but gain one each time you level up and each time you perform an act of extraordinary heroism. They can be spent to add 1d20 to any d20 roll you're making, or to your AC vs. one attack. They can also be spent to manipulate the scene in minor ways.

:arrow: A system I toyed with briefly was Drama Tokens. Each PC had 3, which could be spent for a reroll or to manipulate the scene slightly. Once spent, a DT was held by the GM until he spent it to modify the scene slightly against the PC (example: "Well, all 5 orcs decide to attack you, Bob. Here's your drama token back.").

What are y'all's opinions on this concept? Any experience with worthwhile systems? Thoughts? Rotten tomatoes? Long-stemmed roses? Undergarments (women only, please)?

[Jacob_Orlove]

Here's a cool system I've never had a chance to try (because I'd have to un-Champions it):

2) The "Luck" system was also mostly useless, so Neil initiated the "Chit" system of luck. Instead of "luck" showing up whenever the DM remembers it, now at the beginning of every session each character reaches into a bag and pulls out a chit of a random color, plus one additional chit for each die of luck he has. The chits work like this:

White chits are common, and they allow a reroll of any die they control. Whether that's damage or a to-hit roll or a skill check, the white allows success in the face of failure. (Or sometimes a worse failure.)

Black chits are uncommon, and they allow one of two things, both Champions-specific. You can either drop a die from a to-hit or skill roll (Champs involves rolling 3d6, with low scores being good and 3s being a critical success, so dropping a die almost guarantees success), or you can take an evasive action/recovery when you don't otherwise have an action (as in, "Yes, I've used up my action firing at the bad guy this turn, but I'd really like to dodge because someone just popped over the hill with a bazooka"). Black chits are great, but they let Neil draw a chit.

Blue chits are the surprise power. Champions (and D&D) is rigidly defined in terms ofwhat you can and can't do, and the blue chit is the "hero does something cool and unexpected" roll. For example, Thermal has a flame blast power. With a blue chit, I can say, "I heat up the gas pipes in the ground to cause them to explode underneath the guy, taking him by surprise." That's not technically possible without a lot of tricky rolls in normal Champions, but the blue chit is the cool SFX power - the one that allows characters to do the crazy things that comic book people do all the time.

The gold chit - and there was only one to begin with - allows the player to come up with a customized plot for the character. Nothing like "I GET THE ULTIMATE SWORD OF POWER OMG," but rather "I want a love interest for my PC" or "I become sheriff of the town" or (better yet) "Fred the noble paladin NPC becomes sheriff of the town." These plots take awhile to resolve, but they're usually satisfying.

[the_taken]

Your drama tokens immediately reminded me of "Kung Fu Hustle." The eventual protagonist spends most of the campaign obtaining a few DTs every time he tries to do some noteworthy evil, 'till the end where he trades them all back in to perform the most awesome toe crushing and toad kicking battle ever.

Could be interesting. Guidelines?

[Talisman]

Jacob: That looks extremely similar to the White/Red/Blue/Legend Chip system of Deadlands.

the_taken: Are yo asking for guidelines on how I used Drama Tokens? I'll post it if you want.

[JonSetanta]

CHA= Luck and/or your "action points score".

It gives purpose to otherwise penalized Bards, Sorcerers or Expert/Rogue diplomancers, since they don't get anything other than social bonuses out of the score.

I don't see any good reasons for multicolored chits. Best to keep it 1 token or point with multiple options.

Now, the problem comes down to this; do you want the Luck to count as:
• Bonus to roll
• A reroll, keep second roll
• A reroll, keep better
• Ignore an enemy roll/attack, or make one of yours not require one (auto-crit or w/e)

You could even cash in multiple Lucks for an increased result, with the default being a simple bonus, and provide all as options.

[the_taken]

the_taken: Are yo asking for guidelines on how I used Drama Tokens? I'll post it if you want.

Yes. Please and thank you.

[Talisman]

Drama Tokens

Each character begins the game with three Drama TokensTM. A Drama Token can be used at any time to gain an advantage for your character. Specifically, a Drama Token can be used to accomplish any of the following:

:arrow: Re-roll any die-roll you have just made. This must be done before the GM declares the specific effects.
:arrow: Add +1d20 to your AC vs one attack.
:arrow: Gain the benefits of a feat for one round. You must meet the prerequisites for the feat normally.
:arrow: Swap out any one spell you have prepared for any other spell of the same or lower level that you could have memorized, but did not. For wizards, this means the new spell must be in your spellbooks.
:arrow: Take a single move action out of turn, at any time. You can only use this option once per round, no matter how many Drama Tokens you have.
:arrow: Avoid dying from an attack which would otherwise have killed you. If an attack would have resulted in your being rendered dying (-1 to -9 hp), you are instead dropped to 1 hp. If an attack would have killed you outright (-10 hp or less), you are instead dropped to -5 hp and considered stabilized.
:arrow: Modify the scenery in minor ways. Any changes must make sense, given the context. For instance, in a barn you could declare there to be a big haystack, a horse, or a conveniently-placed pitchfork, but not a trained warhorse or a masterwork greatsword.
:arrow: Perform any other action the GM allows that is not covered under the normal rules.

The GM retains the final say as to what a Drama Token can or cannot accomplish.
Drama Tokens cannot be given away, but you can spend a Drama Token and give another character the benefit. Your character must be in the scene, and able to interact in some way, although (game-mechanics-wise) you don't actually take an action.

You cannot spend multiple Drama Tokens on the same action. For instance, if you spend one Drama Token to increase your AC vs. Captain Midnight's Blade of Doom and you roll a measly 2, you can't spend another to re-roll. Nor can you spend another Drama Token to evade the Blade of Doom in some other way.

However, other players can still spend tokens on your behalf...but each player is still limited to only one Drama Token on that action. In this example, the new d20 roll replaces the original one, even if it's worse.

When you spend a Drama Token, the GM collects it. The GM retains any spent Drama Tokens until such time as he spends them, at which point they revert back to the player. If the GM still has some of your Drama Tokens at the end of the session, the GM keeps them until he decides to spend them.

The GM can spend a Drama Token to do anything a player can, and in addition, can force a player to re-roll any one roll they just made. In general, the GM can use Drama Tokens to make life more "interesting" for the players. However, the GM can only spend Drama Tokens to affect the player who originally spent those Tokens, or an NPC who is affecting the player in some way.
You can't spend a Drama Token to re-roll if the GM just spent a Drama Token to make you re-roll. On the other hand, the GM can't make you re-roll a re-roll with a Drama Token.

Example: Max is GMing. Mick has spent two Drama Tokens, but Mark, Chris and Clay haven't spent any. The PCs are fighting some orcs.
Max could spend either of the two Drama Tokens he possesses to force Mick to re-roll. He can also spend them to allow the orcs to re-roll their attacks (on Mick), their saves (against Mick's attacks), their skill checks (as they try to get to Mick), etc.
Max can only spend the Drama Tokens he got from Mick to affect "Mick's" orcs, Mick's character, or the area somehow affecting Mick's character, not the orcs going after Mark, Chris or Clay, their characters, or their area. This is true regardless of how, why or when Mick spent those Drama Tokens.
As soon as Max spends a Drama Token, it goes back to Mick, who can spend it as soon as he wishes.
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These are largely the same options I allow with my Hero Points system. It makes them durable, but I prefer PCs to be a bit tougher rather than risk beloved characters dying in mid-plot...and I hate free-n-easy resurrection.

Having used both, I think I like Hero Points better.

[K]

The system I'd probably use looks like:

-Cha based.

-Spend one a day for free, and get the rest for heroic deeds where you didn't use any (limited by your level + unmodified Cha mod).

-Spend to negate a round of damage, force an enemy reroll on a save against one of your attacks, or autosuceed on a roll. Choose at any time in the round to use it.

[Draco_Argentum]

I'm more in favour of unborking the maths properly rather than adding extra rules to reign in borked maths. The non-maths options are interesting though.

[JonSetanta]

Drama Tokens

Nice.

[Maxus]

Mmhmm. Looks pretty workable.

I like it more than d20-style action points.

[the_taken]

Drama Tokens

Nice.

Agreed. That's clever... I may use this at one point.

[Talisman]

The system I'd probably use looks like:

-Cha based.

-Spend one a day for free, and get the rest for heroic deeds where you didn't use any (limited by your level + unmodified Cha mod).

-Spend to negate a round of damage, force an enemy reroll on a save against one of your attacks, or autosuceed on a roll. Choose at any time in the round to use it.

I like the idea of it being Cha-based...it plays into the "Charisma = Panache and flair" idea, and keeps it from being an auto-dump stat for warriors and wizzies.

That first method I described above allowed PCs to spend a chip to reduce damage. That proved to be a bad idea; no amount of damage was scary because we all had stacks of chips and could chip it off at will. I'm extremely reluctant to use a method that chips off damage.

I'm more in favour of unborking the maths properly rather than adding extra rules to reign in borked maths. The non-maths options are interesting though.

This isn't about unborking the math; it's about putting a certain amount of narrative control in the hands of the players. Everyone's had times when the dice crap out on you at a dramatic moment, or when you can't hit the broad side of a bard with a bazooka. That sucks; it's not fun to experience and it's neither heroic nor dramatic. That is what I aim to correct.

[Maxus]

This isn't about unborking the math; it's about putting a certain amount of narrative control in the hands of the players. Everyone's had times when the dice crap out on you at a dramatic moment, or when you can't hit the broad side of a bard with a bazooka. That sucks; it's not fun to experience and it's neither heroic nor dramatic. That is what I aim to correct.

Wow, that sounds like someone I know...

...Oh, wait, that's me.

Whenever I play a melee-focused character, the dice start hating me. I'm the creator of the Suckbuckler, a character who, at level 2, had a total attack bonus of 7, yet couldn't hit shit.

His saving grace was that he also had an Aura of Suck that made his enemies roll hits even less often than he did.

[Talisman]

That reminds me of a friend who made a Deadlands sharpshooter. He had 5d12 in Shootin' (really, really good if you're not familiar with Deadlands).

He botched. Often. Like, more than once per combat.

So he picked up a lead pipe and began flailing away with his 4d6 Fightin'.

~80 points of damage later... :shock:

[virgil]

Damn, if only he was rolling a D&D character for that time frame with those 4d6s...