[5e] Thorough explanation of why it's terrible?

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Orion
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Post by Orion »

Emerald wrote: There are lots of things in D&D that are impossible under real physics and any version thereof comprehensible to humans. In D&D, fire isn't a chemical reaction, it's an element and a Platonic ideal, and elemental fire not only burns forever with no fuel or air required but it comes in solid, liquid, gaseous, and energetic varieties.

"Solid inert fire" is also a contradiction in terms, yet people accept it just fine because it comes from way over there in the Elemental Plane of Fire and is distinct from Material Plane fire--which is technically an alloy/melding of fire, air, and positive energy--which works the way you'd expect (as long as fire spells and such don't get involved), so you don't really need to think about the physical and metaphysical implications of "pure elemental fire."
You found another instance of D&D books printing unplayable nonsense. There are many such instances. D&D books may occasionally say that's how fire works in D&D but we know that can't actually be how it works because it cannot even be imagined. The vast majority of D&D players have never gone and will never go to the Elemental Plane of Fire because they know instinctively that it's a divide by zero error. When groups actually do go, those GMs make something up from scratch and incorporate a few evocative bits of imagery from the printed text.

EDIT: In other words, you're right, people will smile and nod and accept that unimaginable things exist "over there" where they don't have to interact with them. I don't see how it's viable to present the intersection of alignment with moral philosophy as a problem "over there," out of sight. It's pretty obviously a problem that's "right here" for a lot of players.
Last edited by Orion on Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Emerald »

Orion wrote:EDIT: In other words, you're right, people will smile and nod and accept that unimaginable things exist "over there" where they don't have to interact with them. I don't see how it's viable to present the intersection of alignment with moral philosophy as a problem "over there," out of sight. It's pretty obviously a problem that's "right here" for a lot of players.
My point is that alignment is hardly unique among the dozens of "it works this way because mythical reality" flavor elements in the game, pretty much all of which exist on some sort of spectrum between "Ineffable Cosmic Thing With Capital Letters that serves as the basis for the lore but is rarely interacted with" on the one hand and "real thingy but with some magic added on that the PCs run into a lot" on the other (Platonic Fire vs. fireballs, conceptually-freezing Mountain of Ultimate Winter vs. cone of cold, existentially-horrifying Deep Shadow vs. normal-world-but-mildly-spooky Border Shadow, etc.).

Pretending that "Evil is a tangible force and the Lower Planes are made of evil-ons" is uniquely mind-bending and campaign-ruining compared to all the others, when the lore-obsessed find it just as easy to comprehend and incorporate as any other impossible bits of setting flavor and the beer-and-pretzels groups find questions like "Does a greedy merchant detect as Evil on the party paladin's evil-dar?" no more game-stopping than ones like "What effect does the party wizard shooting a lightning bolt into the ocean have?", is highly disingenuous.
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Post by Mechalich »

Emerald wrote: Pretending that "Evil is a tangible force and the Lower Planes are made of evil-ons" is uniquely mind-bending and campaign-ruining compared to all the others, when the lore-obsessed find it just as easy to comprehend and incorporate as any other impossible bits of setting flavor and the beer-and-pretzels groups find questions like "Does a greedy merchant detect as Evil on the party paladin's evil-dar?" no more game-stopping than ones like "What effect does the party wizard shooting a lightning bolt into the ocean have?", is highly disingenuous.
Well, except there's the issue with how alignment interacts with typical D&D gameplay structures and the operational needs of escapism.

At it's heart D&D is about assembling a party of adventures, going to some location, killing pretty much everyone and everything at said location, and then walking out with everything even remotely valuable that you can cram into bags. At the same time, it's a deeply escapist hobby where the overwhelming majority of the players want to imagine their characters are taking actions that are morally justified and they just don't want to think about any ethical complications.

Now, the problem is that in our modern, real-world, liberal Western moral philosophical framework, pretty much everything D&D adventurers do is horrible if the people they're doing it too aren't already beyond the moral event horizon, and this is particularly tricky when the party travels outside of the lands that belong to their culture and into lands that belong to someone else's culture.

Alignment is, largely, the method D&D uses to cut through this particular ethical Gordian knot. And for some types of enemies it works just fine: saying that beings like demons, devils, undead, and various 'abominations of magic' are irredeemably evil works just fine because they really aren't biological organisms at all and can be clearly slotted into the 'not people' category and therefore defining them as 'evil' is not particularly fraught. It gets much more difficult when dealing with actual flesh and blood entities that have normal lives and families and homes or their own, and it gets really troubling when dealing with representatives of such groups that are not only not actively attacking you, but couldn't possibly attack you at all, like infants.

Now, generally, a smart GM can just elide this problem by not having troublesome non-combatants around. D&D video games have long taken this approach. You fight plenty of goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs in BG and BGII, but all of them are part of active warbands trying to murder you, and even when you go to the home turf of such groups, like the gnoll stronghold in BG, there just aren't any infants there. This is generally the best approach because even if you can somehow manage to write a convincing justification for why its ethically acceptable to murder the infants of some fantasy species, having to give that explanation in the first place has already ruined the escapism.

In terms of overall design it is probably the best approach to make it quite clear that you should only be placing the 'irredeemably evil' label no something in a game that you can successfully define as 'not-people,' and accept that anything that does potentially qualify as people comes with all the same ethical baggage as any other species. Note that it's perfectly possible to have orcs on the 'not-people' side of things, you just make them the spawn of some arcane alchemy like the Uruk-Hai.

For D&D this is something of a legacy problem. It has a lot of humanoid races/species that have been floating around since the 70s that were primarily designed for PCs to murder but at the same time are clearly people and there's no good way to reconcile the issue without opening the grimdark floodgates. Saying something like 'all orcs are evil because something, something, influence of Gruumush, something' is a dodge, but I can see why you would do that.
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Post by Chamomile »

Orion wrote:I don't subscribe to subjective morality.
Then you are objectively wrong about the universe. Your notion of justice is a chemical impulse in your brain. It can alter reality only insofar as it can cause your physical body to take action in accordance with it. The belief on its own never amounts to anything more than a few electrical flashes in a glob of fat. If that impulse is snuffed out, nothing remains. If an evil alien rewrites every human's brain to eliminate any notion of justice, then there is no Platonic ideal justice left to be trespassed against. Justice has been annihilated.

If morals exists independent of the minds that think of them, then you should be able to at least describe what a particle or wave or whatever of morals would be. What do you think an "objective moral" is? What scientific discovery would prove you right? What would that world even look like?
Emerald wrote:"Solid inert fire" is also a contradiction in terms,
No, it isn't. It's something that's impossible in the world we actually live in, but in a fictional world, it is easy to imagine a red fire-shaped solid which will "melt" back into regular flickering fire if it gets hot enough. You can interact with that. You can tell stories about that. You can tell stories about a word that's been stolen from the lexicon and which no one can speak anymore, or a place so cold that time itself moves slower, causing Narnia-style time dilation.

You cannot tell stories about objectively good forces. You have already conceded this, locking "objective good" away in places that players can never reach, because they cannot meaningfully interact with this concept, nor can you possibly describe what it looks like or what effects it has on anything. Now you're just stamping your foot and insisting that even though you make no effort to incorporate objective good into your stories or settings whatsoever, it still totally exists, because you claim it does, just in such a way as to have no effect on anything at all ever. That's not how existence works. A force that affects nothing is non-existent.

Your described setting is a concession that what you're claiming is impossible to even describe, because you go on at length not about how it can be described, but about all your excuses to avoid doing so.
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Post by merxa »

Moral philosophy will likely outlive Chamomile, but perhaps here in this forum we see the beast slain forever, and a new golden age of man has begun.

Likewise, Dante's Divine Comedy will be consigned to the forges as a heretical text, for no one could imagine such a thing.
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Post by MGuy »

I'm really sure that the fact that people make up imaginary worlds where powerful beings enforce ideas they like on beings that are less powerful than them have plenty of room to exist. The existence of these things does not change the fact that the cosmic forces described within them are not actually moralistic. I've no idea what you think Cham's argument is but if you think any amount of fanfiction can't exist because of what he's said I'm pretty sure you're getting it wrong.
Last edited by MGuy on Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

merxa wrote: Likewise, Dante's Divine Comedy will be consigned to the forges as a heretical text, for no one could imagine such a thing.
A place of metaphysical punishment is easy to comprehend, and can be an objective reality in the game world. You can march into hell and lay waste to armies of devils and the Princes of Hell.

What you can't say is exactly what moral precept and to what degree merited the punishment. In Christian morality, 'wicked thoughts' are themselves sins and could potentially condemn you to damnation, but a D&D character doesn't HAVE thoughts - just things the player decides they would do. Virtually every PC kills people - most of them are going to kill some that aren't EVIL because they're deluded or misguided or whatever... I don't think I've met a PC that hasn't killed at least one city guard 'just doing his job' in pursuit of some larger issue of justice. Claiming 'there is an objective morality but NOBODY KNOWS WHAT IT IS' is the same as saying 'there is no objective reality, because we cannot observe and measure it'.

Effectively, each D&D world may have 'objective morality', but if it exists, it is exactly what the GM thinks it should be, and subject to the punishment that he thinks appropriate. That means in some campaign worlds, one man winking at another and suggesting a sexual rendezvous is enough to automatically convert from Lawful Good to Chaotic Evil and in another one wenching with every man/woman/beast doesn't even get the bat of an eye. There is little to no consistency between campaign worlds, so there isn't a 'true morality' that they're all based on.

Even a simple statement like 'killing evil creatures is a good act' is subject to many interpretations. A claim to an objective morality that can't be used to determine the moral direction of a specific action is not a useful tool, so isn't worth trying to include in a game. Having actions approved of by individual gods (even if they're contradictory between 'good' gods) is much more interesting a stance. If participating in a Bacchanalian feast is okay for good-aligned worshipers of a particular deity but not for those of a more prudish deity, that's fine...

Until/unless someone demands a change to a listed alignment, a character can 'align' with team good but commit any number of evil acts. Even while murdering angel babies, the good character will detect as 'good' because detect evil only detects creatures that are 'evil creatures' (unless undead, outsiders, or clerics of an evil god) so claiming a good or neutral alignment gets you off the hook.
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Post by Chamomile »

merxa wrote:Likewise, Dante's Divine Comedy will be consigned to the forges as a heretical text, for no one could imagine such a thing.
Jesus fuck why is this so difficult for you to wrap your head around? The Divine Comedy does not depict objective morality, it depicts an arbitrarily powerful entity enforcing the subjective morals that Dante Alighieri personally holds. That's why, instead of actually answering my challenge and explaining what measurable morality could possibly even look like, you just make a vague gesture to an entire novel with the claim that it's in there somewhere.
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Post by merxa »

These are claims you make Chamomile, but you're not the final arbitraror of truth, indeed based on what you've said you may not even accept there being any such thing, you may even deny that as a coherent concept.

I think making a strong claim like 'objectice morality' doesn't exist is difficult and requires a very high bar of evidence -- like thousands of years of human society living in such a society. But that's just my opinion. I'm not a moral philosopher, but we can ask them. Objective list theory seems viable.

But we're wondering far afield. And a lot of this is in jest, we're discussing a game.

In terms of religion, I believe it's fine to think the billions of religious people are mistaken, but I think it's also worthwhile to acknowledge that they could be correct. Faith is one of those human concepts I don't dismiss out of some sort of tyranny of scientific determinism and monadism. Faith, almost by definition, ignores reason.

In terms of it being impossible to play a game with objective morality rules and therefore d&d has never had objective rules is a strange argument to me. We all know sections of RAW that are silly or non sensible, but we still ended up playing the game, at least a version we can all talk about. I can certainly imagine people playing a game based on an objective morals system -- and no one making any claims this imaginary objective moral system is real or true, it might not even be especially coherent, but we could play with some rules and have in game states that relate to these rules.
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Post by Chamomile »

merxa wrote:I think making a strong claim like 'objectice morality' doesn't exist is difficult and requires a very high bar of evidence -- like thousands of years of human society living in such a society.
I'd ask you if you think the world is flat, given that people lived in societies that believed it was for thousands of years, but given that you've degenerated into "is reality even real, man?" I doubt there'd be much point.
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Post by Whipstitch »

merxa wrote: I think making a strong claim like 'objectice morality' doesn't exist is difficult and requires a very high bar of evidence -- like thousands of years of human society living in such a society.
No u

I mean that unironically. Seriously, if you're going to pull the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" card you need to put up or shut up and explain why contemporaneous societies so often have divergent mindsets.
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Post by Stubbazubba »

The biggest giveaway here is that "objective" morality only makes sense if we think of it in terms of made-up scientific particles. The game doesn't describe them that way, it describes them in moral terms from the English language, which are themselves fraught with the meaning that writers--the subjects in "subjective"--put into them.

You cannot sufficiently separate the actual language used in the books to describe the alignments from the moral context that give those words any meaning at all. The 3.5 PHB says "Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit." What does "innocent life" mean in a world where Orcs--including Orc children--are intractably driven to violence and rape by their creator god, who also happens to be tagged "Evil"? The book doesn't define innocence, so we necessarily import that entire concept directly from the real world, including its subjectivity.

The other big giveaway is that by the same descriptions, creatures that lack the capacity for moral action like animals are neutral no matter what they do. Morality is therefore subjective because you have to be aware of it for it to operate on you.
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Post by Dean »

It's pretty easy to marry moral philosophy with any D&D alignment rules given. The answer to any question is "Those are the rules".

Animals are neutral no matter what because those are the rules. All Orcs ping as killable to any Paladin because those are the rules.

There's a polytheistic pile of beings who, collectively, make the rules, and these are the rules right now. The "orc babies" problem can be a completely legitimate in-universe edge case that, like a real life political problem, upsets many people....but not enough that it's gotten changed.

I don't know exactly the story of what Grumsh did to Corellion or how Corellion successfully lobbied other gods not to stop his decree that all Grumsh's children will be cursed, but there is a story. Other gods might regret having signed on with Corellion's bill now that some time has passed but there's a lot of gods and there's a lot of favors owed around and there just isn't the divine political will right now to take on Corellion's tentpole issue.

Just because laws are divine doesn't mean they're good for you. There's a lot of gods with a lot of interests out there. The Good party is pretty left but can get a little righteous, the Evil party has a bad platform but very active recruitment and a motivated base, they're all just interplanar political parties. You can gain the Evil or Good tag in D&D all sorts of ways in D&D from items to spells to classes. It's not even a statement about your inner self necessarily, it's just a set of rules.
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Post by MGuy »

Most of the deities in any fantasy setting actually don't make the rules for that setting. In many iterations they can be killed. They are just really fucking powerful entities that can break and bend the normal physics of the setting.

It's really interesting that people are trying to make the alignment system out to be anything other than a failure. The alignment system is fucked and works best if you treat it as cosmic radiation that happen to resonate with certain thoughts. Otherwise it's just a meme.

By just treating it as radiation you avoid all of the dumb issues you run into when even implying that it's anything close to a moral system and you keep all of the mechanical things that are attached to it.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Gnostic Christianity's Demiurge "YHWH is not the creator just a powerful angel claiming to have craeted you the true creator is beyond" is what Smash Bros goes by
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Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

Ironically, Shin Megami Tensei does the opposite and has the Demiurge being a deluded piece of YHWH that thinks it created everything. I think. I haven't played Strange Journey in a while.
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Post by Dean »

MGuy wrote:Most of the deities in any fantasy setting actually don't make the rules for that setting. In many iterations they can be killed. They are just really fucking powerful entities that can break and bend the normal physics of the setting.
There's nothing gained by saying that evilon radiation "naturally" is drawn to you if you masturbate to certain things or are a certain species. There is lots to be gained by saying that the fucking powerful entities that can break and bend the physics of the setting have done so based on their views and set up rules between them that you are allowed to agree or disagree with as you see fit.
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Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

But what if Kurtulmak went "hmm hmm these Evilons are fucking great and make my scales look nice" and cursed all kobolds to have Evilons coursing through their scales?
What if I replaced kobolds with vampires?
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Post by Dean »

That’s exactly what I’m saying. Grumsh felt his turn to evil gave him the power to reach his full strength so he’s “gifted” his race with great access to that energy source.
Even Abyssal sand and all that still works. Abyssal sand is “evil” for the same reason Californian sand is “American” sand. The only difference is cosmic good gods and cosmic evil gods can still tell which sand is “theirs” even if you mix it with other sand which America can’t do.
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Post by MGuy »

Dean wrote:
MGuy wrote:Most of the deities in any fantasy setting actually don't make the rules for that setting. In many iterations they can be killed. They are just really fucking powerful entities that can break and bend the normal physics of the setting.
There's nothing gained by saying that evilon radiation "naturally" is drawn to you if you masturbate to certain things or are a certain species. There is lots to be gained by saying that the fucking powerful entities that can break and bend the physics of the setting have done so based on their views and set up rules between them that you are allowed to agree or disagree with as you see fit.
Nothing gained? I mean if we ignore that you find an easy explanation for why deitiies and outerbeings tend to act in certain ways and not others. There's the fact that you have a reason never to have a mortal race born with evilons. I could go on.

And it's not 'just' that you gain this or that. You give everything you get if you just want to have your Greek/Roman pantheon of gods without all the issues you run into by assuming they represent moral 'truths' or anything like that. You don't have to deal with dumb arguments about how alignments are even supposed to work and keep it much simpler and less dumb.

Grrumsh or Kurtulmak or Lloth or whatever can still 'like' whatever and personally decide to come fuck with people when they do or do things they don't like as the Greek gods of old just without all the guff about them being 'good' or 'evil' or beyond people rooting for their own teams.
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Post by RobbyPants »

I'm going to be playing in a 5E game and decided to get some books. Apart from the PHB, are there any that are useful? I've heard people talk about Unearthed Arcana and Xander's Guide to Everything, but I don't know if either are worth buying.
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Post by Stubbazubba »

RobbyPants wrote:I'm going to be playing in a 5E game and decided to get some books. Apart from the PHB, are there any that are useful? I've heard people talk about Unearthed Arcana and Xander's Guide to Everything, but I don't know if either are worth buying.
Unearthed Arcana is not a book in 5e, it's a column of playtest material they put out.

Xanathar's Guide has some valuable things for Rangers (subclasses) and Clerics (spells), but all the other new options are no better than what's in the core books. Some of the options are fun for flavor, though.

The only new full class that has been released, the Artificer, was released in Eberron: Rising from the Last War. It's not better than the casters in core, but it's a fun concept.

New races can be found in Volo's Guide to Monsters (including all the monstrous races), Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes (including Gith and Shadar-kai and Eladrin), and the alternative setting books (Eberron RftLW above, Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica, Mythic Odysseys of Theros, plus a few in Explorer's Guide to Wildemount, the Rick and Morty one, Acquisitions Inc., etc.).

At the end of the day, nothing is going to make you significantly better off than core, except some Unearthed Arcana stuff. Their strategy with that playtest material is to release it more powerful and then tweak it down based on the playtest, I guess, which means they're constantly asking folks to buy a disappointing version of what they already played for free, but there it is.

You can look at dndbeyond.com for a preview of the options, and you can buy individual subclasses, races, spells, etc. on there and save a lot versus buying whole books.

EDIT: Almost forgot, WotC released a free Player's Options PDF for one of the early official adventures, including Aarakocra, which gives you a flight speed at level 1. That's a pretty noticeable advantage in the early levels.
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Post by pragma »

The highest optimization book is arguably Sword Coast Adventurers Guide, which contains the Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade cantrips. Those spells dramatically affect how single attack characters play by bolting level appropriate damage on top of their existing attack. It also contains the Arcana Cleric (which gets a cantrip, usually one of the blade ones) and Swashbuckler (a slightly above average rogue, which is very average in 5e).

I play with core and Google anything unusual if my players request it. It works well enough. VGTM and MTOF both look pretty fun, but you've got plenty of monsters in the monster manual for a campaign. Unfortunately, 5e design runs to monsters being sacks of HP and attacks, you may need to get inventive w/ combat setups.
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Post by ColorBlindNinja61 »

pragma wrote:The highest optimization book is arguably Sword Coast Adventurers Guide,
Really? I was under the impression that the most broken 5e content was core. Stuff Like Magic Jar, Glyph of Warding and Animate Dead.
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Post by WiserOdin032402 »

SCAG has dumb things like player character options that can fly forever from level 1 that just so happens to synergize with Warlock, which is a class that is so versatile at this point (thanks to XGtE) you could justify a party of three of the flying bastards (Hexblade, Celestial, your choice of caster [Probably fiend]) and simply kite everything to death with the combat solving cantrip.
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