Fixing Cyberlimbs

Trill · Post by **Trill** » Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:56 pm

Not regarding weapons. There only accessories do such things.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:11 pm

Ah, right . .

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:45 am

Melee combat is cool, so does SR4e need much adjustment to go into punching and katana range?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Mar 05, 2020 9:56 am

OgreBattle wrote:Melee combat is cool, so does SR4e need much adjustment to go into punching and katana range?

The two-shot problem of SR4's non-proportional damage issue combined with melee attacks requiring a complex action means that it's functionally impossible to be effective in melee combat in SR4. It requires exactly a double tap to drop almost any enemy, and firearms give you exactly twice as many attacks as melee weapons.

You could easily enough change that. If melee weapons were changed to a Simple Action and/or you switched to a proportional damage system you could imagine a scenario in which swinging a katana at someone's face was effective. Or at least, effective enough that it wouldn't be totally off the list of things you could plausibly do with a character if you wanted to.

Manabolt is a Complex action to use, but it does such ridiculously large amounts of damage that it can drop people reliably in one hit. Guns of various kinds do between 50 and 75 percent of the enemy's hit points in one shot, but fire twice. Either model is reasonable at the level of lethality that SR4 is. Katanas aren't in either place, but they could be.

-Username17

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Mar 05, 2020 7:38 pm

a.) melee simple action. Movement is natural, running is a free action and most people fail at that on a regular basis in real life.
b.) melee DMG == STR+x(the secret ingredient). BRING BACK MUSCLE MEN!

Also, i am probably wrong, but the SR3 LMSD System feels more lethal to me somehow.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Mar 05, 2020 8:21 pm

Stahlseele wrote: Also, i am probably wrong, but the SR3 LMSD System feels more lethal to me somehow.

You're not wrong. In LMSD you can get dropped by a single attack and in SR4's non-proportional system you basically can't be.

LMSD is a better damage system. It's just everything else about SR3 that's worse than SR4.

-Username17

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:33 pm

So, to fix cyberlimbs, you need to fix their cost and the value of the Strength attribute, and to fix the value of Strength you need to fix melee combat, and to fix melee you need to fix the damage scale and the combat turn system...

That being said, the combat turn breakdown into Simple and Complex Actions is a mess. The option to perform two Simple Actions in the same turn adds a disproportionate amount of complexity to support, what? Double tap, firing at two different targets, reloading and from time a time, some specific pair of actions like Observing in detail and shooting or throwing a grenade and shooting.

Double Tap ought to be handled the same way shortened burst are (assuming you also fix the damage scale), reloading and shooting the same way quick draw is... Then Simple and Complex Actions could be merged to streamline combat with minimal adjustement, small stuff like making Observe in detail an Automatic Action or doubling the Take Aim modifier).

Regarding the value of Strength (and thus cyberlimbs), one option I considered was to extend Strength-based recoil modifiers. On a fundamental level, each Strength point giving a one dice bonus when using some weapons in a specific (and loud) manner would not be much more overpowered than each Agility point giving a one dice bonus when using any weapon any time. Obviously, having both Strength and Agility (which cyberlimbs and muscle replacement offer) would become much more desirable.

Regarding the cost of cyberlimbs, it hinges on one of Shadowrun fundamental problem: the game tries to offer character options paid in three different currencies: karma, nuyen and Essence. Training and magic cost karma, cyberware costs nuyen and Essence, bioware costs more nuyen and less Essence, etc. Though the character options are not even balanced to start with (spirit summoning, initiative boost...), the cost issue comes on top of that, with those three currencies on completely different systems: Essence is mechanically set and capped, while Karma and Nuyen are handed by the Gamemasters, but Nuyen has to stay consistent with the setting, regarding lifestyle and looting. Then some tried to have Essence cost being consistent with some vvague concept of how invasive the piece of ware is...

It would be a stretch to just call it "a fix" but I think it might not be a bad solution to lower cyberware price to mass consumption level, and rework Essence cost as a Karma cost. Such Karma cost would represent the training needed to adapt to new ware. That would basically make ware augmentations an Essence-capped discount on Karma for raising skills and attributes.