Annoying Game Questions You Want Answered

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri Feb 28, 2020 6:16 pm

So... radar and jamming radar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_jam ... al_jamming

From what I understand radar's in the microwave spectrum, modern radars can move around that spectrum. Jammers... send noise on the same spectrum as the radar yeah? So then jamming is a matter of wiggling spectrum's around?

Would a thunderstorm affect radar, solar flare?

Trill · Post by **Trill** » Fri Feb 28, 2020 7:59 pm

OgreBattle wrote:So... radar and jamming radar
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar_jam ... al_jamming

From what I understand radar's in the microwave spectrum, modern radars can move around that spectrum.

yes and no. RADAR uses radio waves, which includes everything with a longer wavelength than infrared. This includes microwave radiation, but also stuff like Radio (duh). There are a lot of bands available, which are used depending on the situation and needs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar#Frequency_bands
And yes, a radar is usually able to change its primary wavelength, but not by that much.

Jammers... send noise on the same spectrum as the radar yeah?

Yup. Just like you'd jam visual communications by including noise (bright light or fog)

So then jamming is a matter of wiggling spectrum's around?

Not really. There are a few possibilities:

You can just pump out a lot of noise on all available channels to drown out the signal from the Radar itself. Pro: Good coverage so unlikely to be evaded. Con: You need a lot of power, your Radar is blocked as well, very obvious.
Detect what frequencies they use and pump a lot of noise on those frequency bands. Pro: A lot less power required, not blocking your own frequencies. Con: You need to detect them first, some delay.
Put lots of reflective elements in the air. Signal from the radar is then scattered on them, not you, masking position. Pro: Very cheap, no signal manipulation required. Con: Limited range, vulnerable to air currents.
Send decoys, which make it harder to determine which is your aircraft. Pro: Very hard to distinguish, thus reducing chance of being targeted. Con: Expensive, large, no chance of not being detected.
Give your planes special forms, causing the radar waves to be deflected somewhere aside from the radar itself. Pro: very stealthy, possibly to the point of not being detected at all. Con: Lots of time spent developing

Would a thunderstorm affect radar, solar flare?

yup. Just as a very bright day would hinder visual detection.

pragma · Post by **pragma** » Sat Feb 29, 2020 9:30 pm

Two details to add:

1. Trill refers often to noise, which is sometimes an overloaded term in communication systems. In the strictest sense, noise only refers to random signals. I think (though I'm not certain) that you usually jam by broadcasting a deterministic high power signal instead of a random signal: yelling, not static. This has the effect of desensitizing and potentially damaging the target's electronic systems and is easier to implement than high powered random signals.

2. Lots of radar and communications systems are frequency agile. They change the frequencies they operate on, often in a way that appears random to someone trying to jam them. So frequency-specific jamming winds up being a continual guessing/decoding game where you try to predict frequency hops as they happen.

Trill · Post by **Trill** » Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:00 pm

pragma wrote:I think (though I'm not certain) that you usually jam by broadcasting a deterministic high power signal instead of a random signal: yelling, not static. This has the effect of desensitizing and potentially damaging the target's electronic systems and is easier to implement than high powered random signals.

Yes, that is a possible way. I use noise in the sense of stuff distinct from signal. Background static, other communications, and a high baseline all apply to noise, because it's them you try to compare your signal to (thus the Signal-To-Noise ratio).
Noise doesn't have to be random. If I want to send a signal over a channel and someone is also sending a signal over that channel then for both of us the other signal is noise.

Random and non-Random noise both have advantages and disadvantages
Random noise has the advantage of being hard to filter. Even if you have a simple baseline increase you can remove, the random part is still going to mask the signal. If you see a peak you can't know for sure if it's an actual transmission or a random occurrence. But yeah, AFAIK truly random high-power noise is harder to make.
non-Random noise has the advantage of being easy to produce. Just take some antennas and put in a high-voltage alternating current. But as said above, it's a even, static gain. You can filter it out and then work with the rest of the signal (which is of course smaller, but still distinctly there)

Thaluikhain · Post by **Thaluikhain** » Sun Mar 01, 2020 12:36 pm

Trill wrote:But yeah, AFAIK truly random high-power noise is harder to make.

OSS Simple Sabotage wrote:Damaging insulation on any electrical equipment tends to, create radio interference in the immediate neighborhood, particularly on large generators, neon signs, fluorescent lighting, X-ray machines, and power lines. It workmen can damage insulation on a high tension line near an enemy airfield, they will make ground-to-plane radio communications difficult and perhaps impossible during long periods of the day.

Having handy high tension lines nearby may or may not be possible, of course.

Trill wrote:non-Random noise has the advantage of being easy to produce. Just take some antennas and put in a high-voltage alternating current. But as said above, it's a even, static gain. You can filter it out and then work with the rest of the signal (which is of course smaller, but still distinctly there)

Instead of filtering it out, well, whether or not it's a jamming device or a beacon for things to home in on is a matter of your point of view. Don't stand next to the device.

Trill · Post by **Trill** » Sun Mar 01, 2020 1:22 pm

Thaluikhain wrote:Having handy high tension lines nearby may or may not be possible, of course.

Good luck. Most radar installations have such things in at least a kilometer distance, for exactly that reason.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Mon Mar 02, 2020 8:44 am

Thanks, the allusions to light and fog and sunlight make things easier to grasp.

So satellite TV dish looking radars have an antenna that emits waves and the dish receives them right?

I see these little blocks in modern aircraft radar though, do they combine the functions of antenna and dish as one?

Trill · Post by **Trill** » Mon Mar 02, 2020 11:24 am

pragma · Post by **pragma** » Tue Mar 03, 2020 4:55 am

The little blocks do even more! They are a bunch of little antennas called a phased array (or AESA in your first picture) that team up to transmit or receive. By comparing the time at which each antenna receives a signal, you can determine where it came from. You can play a similar trick when transmitting to send out tightly focused beams of radar. They're really cool bits of electrical engineering that are seeing increasing deployment in cell phones, wifi access points and consumer/medical ultrasound.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Mar 03, 2020 5:02 am

How much do proficiencies actually matter in D&D? Like, you've got schmucks running around with fireballs and fingers of death and zombie armies. Do we really care about whether a fighter knows the distinct differences between how to fight with a bastard sword and a rapier? Or quantitating which specific instruments the bard does and doesn't know how to play?

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Mar 03, 2020 6:44 am

pragma wrote:The little blocks do even more! They are a bunch of little antennas called a phased array (or AESA in your first picture) that team up to transmit or receive. By comparing the time at which each antenna receives a signal, you can determine where it came from. You can play a similar trick when transmitting to send out tightly focused beams of radar. They're really cool bits of electrical engineering that are seeing increasing deployment in cell phones, wifi access points and consumer/medical ultrasound.

That sounds like a good explanation of how the DeathStranding Odradek scanner works

[img]data:image/jpeg;base64,/9j/4AAQSkZJRgABAQAAAQABAAD/2wCEAAkGBxAQEhAQEBAQDw8QFQ8PDxAPEA8PDw8QFRUWFxUVFhUYHSggGBolGxUVITEhJSkrLi4uFx8zODMsNygtLisBCgoKDg0OGhAQFyslHyAtLS0tLS0tLS0uLS0tKy0tKysuLS0tLS0rLS0tLS0tLS0rLS0tKy0tLS0tLS0rLS0tLf/AABEIAKgBLAMBEQACEQEDEQH/xAAcAAACAgMBAQAAAAAAAAAAAAACAwABBAUHBgj/xAA5EAACAQMCBAMFBgUEAwAAAAABAgADBBESIQUGMUEHUWETIjJxgRQjQpGhsTNSYsHhJNHw8RVygv/EABkBAQEBAQEBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAgMEBf/EAC0RAQEAAgICAQICCwEBAAAAAAABAhEDIRIxQSJRE2EyQnGBkaGxwdHh8AQj/9oADAMBAAIRAxEAPwDjMqjEIJRNIdQfSYRktWzAx3WVC8QK0wLEC8QBKQFlIEUSBgEIjCBQEBqiUdK8FuYlta72rDa5K6Dk/GNgMTvMJy8dx+Z2523HLbvoE8D0ON+MvKCpi/og4Yha6jJAJ6PPdx53lw1feP8AOf6efKeGX5VycLOTaaYBKsgNVlBaYFPsCZR2LwMsPZW1xcsBioxUNk5wnUEeW83zT6McZ7vbOF+q37Od8636XN9dVqYxTZyE9QoAz9SCZvl3NYX9WaZw+/3aPTOLaFYAFYAlYAlYAlYFAQIwlkNvQcuck3l8ToTQoGrVUyuof05G87zimM8uS6jz5/8Aokvjj3XVeHeH3DKFNadW1avUwC71C2dR6gadsf7zPlb+jZp5s/8A0eN1ZdvneeR9gxRKgllQWJUEDIiapRUCYgXiBNMCCEQrAgpwIUkFYkRWJQxRAyrG4ejUp1aZIemy1EI2wVOROnHn45bTKbmn1Jylxxb61pXAwSwGsDIw46/rOPPxTDPr1fTfHl5Ttn8QskuKb0qi6kcFWB8pnj5Lx5TKLljMpqvnDnbltuH3L0etM+/SbzU9j6ievOSyZ4+r/Vxxv6t9x5/E5NiAhRgSoPTAVWQnSo3LEADz8prHHdkS3Xb6Auw3CeEBV3ejSCZOB779fngsZcbjyc1vxP7M2XHDX3/u4OR59e/zkt3dqrTIKKwAKwBKwBKwB0wNpwDlu6vnCW9JmHeoQRTUeZY7TpOPreV1GMuSTqd11nlPwyt7WqrXH+qqac7qfZU367Dv07+cmXNjMPo6/q5fVlyTDL1p0VUCDZRsMAKANh0Anj35XuvR4zDHcgSUO50/VgCJfqZ1x5d6fG4WbeoYhBrKyKVExArECQCAgHoMCsSohWQViAynILcSKHRKitEJpYWAaiUdM8E+PmjctaO2KdcFkydhUHYfPedcp+JxWfOPf7vlnfjnv7u6GeF6HhvF3h9tUsi9VlStTI+zn8TufwAd8j8sZnq/82V7x+L/ANtw5ZrV+XBjTlsaRVgNVIQeiVGz5N4Y11fUEVSwVg7Y7IhySZ047Mbcr8M5+tT5dF8Y+LKVo2anL6va1Rg+6oHu79Nyf0nPixuOFy+/r+65XeWvs5ZolFaJAJSABSAOmA2zsKtdhTo02qOeygnHzPadMOO5MZZzH26hyn4UqMVOIEl8+7QQjQPVmHX5CYy5scP0O/zJjc/0unUre2p0kVKaKiLgKqgAD6TyXLLK7td5jjjOouo30HUn0ESM5XvXpznnfxEp2uadq2u4BI80QeZPQn0nvw4ccJvl+fh4Zc+TLeG5I5BxPj1zcVGq1Kra2xnSSo29BNfj5zrHqO84MJPTzGZ43sEplQYMINYQxRKC0wJpgQLAMmBAIRemNiaY2JpkAMDILSUM0wgCMQCWFZVjdPQqU61M6alJlqIR2Im8MtXaWbj6Y5b5jp3Vol2fcXTmpvkKQPenPl4fHPU+fS4cm538PHcWpVePV6QoqycNoGoDcnANRtg2hevkN/UzeP8A857/AN/990vd9f6aPxE8P1tEW4tAxpDaspOop5NnuJ0wznLNa1Z/Nzu8L3eq56tOZdDVSEE64BPlA6F4H8LJqV7ojZAKKkj8TbnB+WPzjluuPX3/ALE7z/Y0PO999pvrmoBhQwoqPSmNJP1OZ0s1Jj9oxj3u/dotEwoSsASsAQhJCgFmOwVRkk+gmpjb1EtkZN/we4oFFrUnpM41KrDcrM5zx7t6XH6uo6p4OXlL2NS30otZGLHAGqoh756nHSc+bLyxlnwuGPjlZfl0UzzO1a/iXEqVuDUr1BSpjThmOBvO/Hx5Z9Yzt58+Txy+q/scg5/8SXuCaFmWp0VLBqvQ1h028lnpwxx4vXeX9GbMuS7y9fb/AC5ozTGVtu66SaBmRWtnJ2WBKyMCAxYBaoF6oE1QLBgUTKghILBgFmEXAkgmIQQlAtCrWAxTKN1wO7rsVs0q6Kdw6p7zEU1LbZx9Z6OPO2eLnnjJ9T6M5Z4Ollb07dNwo3buzHckzxcmUyvXp1wl137rY1qSupRgGVgQwIyCDMS2Xcayks1XAueOWmsLgrj7mrl6LDpjuvzE91sznnP3/tefHc+m+40KJMtguRsBC6+XZOV6IsODe1+F3p1K5Ixku+yfppky75Zj8T/qx+pb93KfZnqdydyfMnrN27u0CacgBkxA3nLnJt1fHKKKNHvWqghcf0j8RmsvHDvP+HyTeX6LrXLXJlpYgMie0rd61TdyfQdF+k82fPll1Oo648Und7rL5g4BQvEKVVx3Drs4I8j5ekxjnZNXufYyw78p1XD7a/q8NuXqUyRUXXT0uunWhPUg9MgAztJccvCzqJlccsfL5rp954j2lG0pXA+8q1RtbhgXVh11eQmp/wCbeVtusfv93P8AEsx1PbkHNXM9xxCprqnSg+CmpOlR/czrc5MfHHqM44d+V7rz7Tm6FsZFBmBrsTm6jWEFqjQmqNC9UaE1RoTVKgtUAS/rAr2o84Bh5BYeEWGMCw0IIGAWYExCiAhTFE1B0Lwp5QN3V+11PdoW7DQMfxao7fIf4m/Occ8vm+v8ueUuX0z9/wDh3cDE8btrS8yLtzXxE4s13V/8VbUVr1dnaoetEgZ931x1+c93BhMZu33/AA08nJlbd/E9feueVrCpSdqdVSlRdmU9RNZY6rWOUym4XaWftatJCcB6ioSdgASMmTCdtZ3WLp/iNXCUba0osPZnd1Uhvcpgacn5/tMcW75ZX3Wc5JqT1HP2oTabY9VDpZlVmVfiYA6F+ZmphbNm3r/DTg9lcsz1Sa1anhhScYpoPPH4pOXLwwl4/wB9+VwnllrJ1lKaqAqgADYADAE8Ftt3XpkkTO/pAsiQrgXiPdLVvq2lGQphH1dSwHWfQykmOM+dPLhb3fzeSdZnbRLLIFMIUthIAxCtdmc3VeYRMwLgSUXCKZsQpL1ifT95na6LJgUDAsSIYIDKdTHyjaaZCmaZEIBiFMWAwSqMCamt9j6A8P8Amjh7W1C3SqlKoihDSfFNi3c+Rz5y8/FlllcsO454ZzGay9va5z8vOeR29l19IHvEAeZ2/WXHe+nPk8fH6nnrfhFrw77TfFi9Spqq1KtQgsV7IuOg7es9Fzy5b4SacvCYTy3vXp47nWkK1OhePppXNUHNAZ1ChvpLH+YbfnO/Unh9vn+rGFty3v28zwq0LOuB8OW/5+kzHXK9N49oT1mrduU6QcFAt2vbglqKtoFCk2KjHOPebsJrHxl1fet/l/su/h7GyWzv+HVKdJFtqRBVlAH3bjoT59t5wy8seWd726y43C9a08ryXypf295TqtT0Uhq1OWGllxtt1m88sMZZtJLdWR1agrAe8cn02E8WVm+noxl12NhtMqvMDi/i3w8pdrW201kABAI3Tz9d57cdXjlnx08361jwTiFJYSKUwgKYSKAiBq8TLokC4EgSBTHEDGdszDQTAqUHjy/4ZEWRCLTyMgPTAOk2JZUrJE0yMQpiwDWUMWVT0M3LZ6Sx2fwz5utVtUoXFyVrqW/jnAxnYKx7Rz8eXJZlj31393LDKYWy+v5PZcQFC7QU/bIabFWbRUX3gCCB16HE5cfnx3fj2nL456nkVzDxW3tqHtKop1FX+Eh0nXUHwgD+/aTDHK2+592rcdSalcru+JPduXYEu+2kfCi9lHoJ6vhiTxei4Dw9aa5amwJ217kY/tJfyS07iVMnZNl6Ej4j8pCL4UWpq9Cog+yVvddXyWBP4/SNS/tiZW66eq4Dy1RtEemjO61DqdXIK+mNp58+a2zU1p3x4uu61Z4jxJOIex0B7N2XS5pEikmN/eGN/nOvhx3j3+X3+WJnl5a/N7CeN6Wj45zXaWZCVnbWQWCIpZsfTpO2HDllN/DneWS6eQvfFP4hStSdiFNSoBg+ZAH6ZnacGE92sfiZX4eG5q5lr8QZGq6UWmMIlMHSCep385v6Zj44xjve7Xn3mWiWkCmhSmhQSDV4kdEgXCJAkBFZv0kqwoQqQgsxpBCE2bRTUceczSMmtYFdxvM+TVxpC+Rhja9MIbSPaWDIAlBqIUYEqjAmlOQSxGTSE0jNoTctZsjJeqcaeo9STia3b7SSR6rlWgMj9ZKxXTOG26acbDbpPJnbt0wkpAtUWowwOgZfTzmvK2M6ktaziiDedcHOtWeYLukAqVsquyh6aOQOwz1M1cML3Ysyynqtfd823zbGqowQw00lXcbj6S444Y/qmXll7pVfnriGMe0pj1Wiuf1MzOPCfqtXLK/Ly3EbupXqNVrOalRtixwNvIAdBNXLfX2STTAeZaIcSBDiQJdYUlhAS0KGBqszDqkCQi8wKZsDMbGEzTO2w5jYgMbNL1RtNCDRtNNjwtfvB6bzGV6axnbfhMzm66a7iFh3Ub/vLKxlhtq9R6HqJtysWGlTTKRptNGqYUamVTAZQ1DKjJpGaR7vkrkh76i9dqhpJnTR93VrI+In07TWWeOEm/dZ+rK9fDA5l5XubEg1VDU2OEqpupPkfIyzKZTeNO/VZHL99pK/r5wxY6Hw/iK6fix1yc7icssUlHbXgYs4OVGEUnqcdTFx+DbXcSuhvvgTpjizWo+w3FYFqNGpUH8wXSp+RbGZuyT9K6J36efrPnPYjIIPUEdQfWSzV7WMGqZlpi1DIrHcwEOZFJYwFPIEtAU0KWRCtTMOiQJILlAVeh+klIwzMtKMCCBID6CZPykG64VRwNX82/0ma3jG0Rphs3TmBreJ2SndcBvyzLjXPONPpnSOVZFEjE1GTgZVGJQayqckoz+G0VqVKVNmCK7ojMTgKCcEzphN2RjK6m30vwu0SjSp0qShaaKFUDpjznk5MrllbW8JrFjca4ULmhVoMANYOk46N1B39ZrDOY5bZuF04NUVqNR6bbPTZkbHmDievWumN77bzhlUup1O2R0GdoZrJocRqITjt8S56jzEz8rZNPbcm2ftf9U65XpQyDnOcM39voZjlz1PGfJx4d7vw9atTLMu/uhe22/r3nms6ldpe7HiOeeVGfVd24GvGqtSG2sAfEv9WPznp4uWZTwy9/F/s454ePc9OZu+dxOlmkjHczKkOZAlzCksZApjAUxhSmgBIrUTLqkIkgkAag2MDCMy0kCCBYEDOtUzgefX5d5CN1SYAADtMOsN9r3k0Aq8QxkAZMumbSVBb3mP0hNba+9GG26GajGSqAmowylmgYMoMSqaplD6eTgDOTjGOue2JvHe+ma+juG0K72NJWb2dx7NPebs4HeYyywx5rdbjExuXH0DmTh9xc2uhHNGsMN7mW1Mu+nIxsTJxZ44cm4ZzLLHufuct5t4TcKlG7uKfsnqfdVVOlTrUbHSPQHf5T28twy7wvr25cW51f3NZw6vgEfKcHSxtLC3a5q06aBi5I+H4gv4v0lknz6Zts9PSXnN1ylylnZUdNKgy0vZ6DrbHxA+Q/7icONv1d/enndddPW8z8w/YqHtmptqbCqhAI1nsxHSefi4Zlb31HTPkymtT2yOE8ZNa0FzWpGidDM6HsBnz8x5+cmXDrkmE/I/FlwtrhT1Mlm6amZseWSTienO7ytYk1JCHaYUlzIpLGApjIFMYCmMKWxgBIrUzDqkqJIJKLMIwHGDMNhzAmZQxFz+8gy0osBkH/qRVpdMpwZNG2zpZYZmWmDUZtXTbtKzsfvnqQBL0z2lzRIXMkLCKLGbjmzEYY9e/lNBunAB6g9CIjQllQxZodC8JuWftVY3NQfdUMaMjIer/j+86XL8PDy+b6/y5ZfXl4S/tdxVcTw27eiTQK9UKrM2yqCxO+wEuMtuomV1N1wTnbmhr6sdLE29MkUVOw8i31nvsmE8Mf3/AJ158Jb3k1FpV6zDdZ9te1KbLUpOUqIcqw7TWOWmbNuoci8107p2SqtOjckAsAAPbsPxA9zjtMc+G8N47/Z9v9Lx3WXb2VzbJUGmoiuuQdLAEZHQzyY55Y3crvljL1RFNsYGOmO2I33tLj1pzHn7kg09V1Zp7gBatRXqPNkH7ievj5PxOr+l/X/bz5Y+H7P6OZPWMqgFTMzWpCnqiECxgKYwpbGAsmFBmQavMw6qzKi5BcoFoGE0w0GBUB1JSYU80ifxS9HYvs+47/OZ2abSxOBiYrcG9IGQsAtDEu00ZWxjEFjULtmdI4U2k0qN3wmzNWnWA6gBk9WHUflEXK+mIQQcHYzUGz4Bwate1loUF1O2ST+FFHUk9hOmEl93UYzy8Y6Pyj9p4Lc+wusC1r4GvV9ytU9G1H4c4IwcS5445TU9fF/t+9z87+lJ9U9z8nWlrKQGyuCMg5BGJ4/G707/AIk1u2OUeKPN7a2sqFT3MA1nQ9c/gzPbhjOPHevqv8nnm+TLe+p6cvDzLuybWpuYSssVIQSVSCGUlWU5VlOGUjuDNTKz0lm3UeR/EEVmFveMi1MYp1idIqEdm7Bpjk4ZlN4e/t/hceS4/penQwwIBG46gzyas6dtyzYWGc+RG8TpLNuBc/U7QXLfZDkb+1Cj3Nefwn9578styb9/LycWNkv2+HmGOM+c5u0IYyosHaQAxhS2MACZFBmBrJh2qCVlcgkCmO0DCbqZloMoggbGhS2mdt6NCeQ+smwwjEKZbNJpYfUbuOsi0CV8wgatSErALDP1nWennvs6xpa2C5xHZNfL0aV1t1AHl+ctSdsCpTJT2h+IsR/89puY9M+XencfCLl37Lbmu4ArXGCeuoJ+FZOf6ZMP4scV887lvqdR7m/s6dZGp1UWorAgq4BE8+OVl6ejLGWOG3vH77hZrWLKmAW0GpqfQh6aDndcT3+cmr7ePLgxzu708U9Qkkkkk7knqTOdytu69MmpqF6pFPtn3i1NbZJqgRKmi2rkygdcsqOh8i+IjW+i3uyWoD3Vq4Jen5Z8xLnhOXv1l/VnG3C9em05o8SQxqUbMA0ypRqrggtkYJQeXqfynn8PDX3/AJR0/T3v19mLyjyA1ytOvdnRRBOmiuRUceTH8I/WJfw7fvTK+c6+GV4geHasrXNkoVkGXoKMBlHUp6+k7Ycv4mscvf3ccsbx7s9OPvkbHY9wZbLLqtS7XmZUDGFATIoCYAZga6c3dJWUlRcCmgYlWmRv2/aZsWUuRR0usLGyonAx5TFbhwMKTWaWAUuvQy6Z2JrgnYbeshs5AJkJrvLGaxMzo4m0mI3GxG8ozTclyCx6dpYWvb+GXD1vL2kruoSl96VPWoV6KB+v0naXWNy+zzck7mP3fRCKAMAAfKeC3b24ySdMPjHE6VrSetWOEQZJ/YTpx8dzuo5cvLOOet7fOnN3ML8QuXuGGldkpJ/JTHQfPv8AWei6nU9RnCX3fdaQneRsTU9gQev6QbRNszO2le0zNRmiDSoaiecIaDA2vK93bUrqi92pagrZYAagD2LDuAd8TeM3ufPwxk+jLa4Sqq1KbK9NhlWU5BE8WWNxur7ejGy9z0Nl2x57SSmUlmnOvEXw+W5BuLRQtyAA1MYVKqgbn0b956uPl8vpz/i8+WH4fePr7f3cVcEEgggjYg9QR2mspZdVqWWbhRMy0BjAWTAHMKwZzdl4lRUrKQLgBUXIMgwZloaHBBgZ4My6DV4BHHeBjtjMrNocwyIVD2k0KZ9pZO0voubYMQwhtMyo3vL1avSqpWtWZay/CVOM+YPoZuZePbncfLp9Bcp840LqkC7mlcIAK1GoQCrehxuJjLhuV3hOmceWcfXJbtzTxV52+1P9lo7W9NvfIP8AGcefoDN+M454/Pz/AIXG3kvnfXx/l4JaikdhJ032At/tI3DFqnp17YjaCMLsAp+soauBCC1wJrlRWuEen5N54uOHMFH3tqxBek25Udyh7H9JqzHOay/iz9WPeLuvBeN0LykK1Bw6nfHRl9COxnlz4ssLqu2HJMp+f2ZpGrtgesz6Szznpxfxj4fY0qi1KThblz95STBBH8xHae3C3Lj+v49V55PHPWHr+jmJac3cBMASYAZhWKZydlZlRMyoqVEgUQfPEDEq08GZrUCBmTYyqTbYPWZbOQwFuxJlRWg+cppAAPWDqHUzM0hNR89Ok1jGMqETTAlkiUxDNI29g9QYNM6T29YyMdGXl7Vzl2YNjZhsxHkcS455Y+qXHG+2taqT1kE1wHUzAYrShit6ybU0DyIP1l2iHI6wK1Sii0CaoQDPKNjy3zLcWFUVaDY6a0PwuvcETcymvHKbjGWG+51XTuPeMFI2/wDpKbC6qDHvjKUT3P8AV8picGON3buLeTPKa1r/AL4cfubh6jGpVc1KjbszHJJlyyuV7XHGYzUJJmWgEwAJhQkwMecXWVUqpKiTSJCLgY9f/Exl7ak6Skm2Zi10kWhzmXSb2PMAkMEM6woDTlZ0qtUwNI695PZfsSJuOVQGVBAyQpiGVGTTrsN8mSzay6ZNa5FRPePvr09Qe0TZdMENNMjRt4GUrbSRaiGaReuZaGrwHUCT32GTCUvVNImqUDqgC7QEloRStvCmFoAkwoCYAloAZgKBnJuVeJGtpKqSoqVEJlRj1RsD5kzF9uknQA22JnXa76FSb/PymtbjG9UZaZbAWlZOpVCf7ntJVm0er2G5MTtbSBKysmbnpirBhDlpY3J+Y8o0gtYHSBXtYQQPqJRQMAlaEPZ8YgGGxKB1yaXYleFZNo27f+rftIUrVNMpqgUWlAO0BOqBaneAZaFCWgCWgCTIoMwFgzCiDSC8yNSpK0qUWdlJ+glRSBSMf8BnO+3WemPVp4ljNgFm2KHMgdSoE7np+8zcmpjsx9v9plshmmpGLQZmmTVmmaYFPUjH7/lCLJztCBHlICwBAsQCWVGVSYdGxg/nL0z2ldB1Uhh33GRGiX7hRpGgs28qIryVYybWphv0/ORb6CTNMq1QKLShdRpFKzAtGlBFpBNUKoDMAGMKDVIP/9k=[/img]

With the Odradek's making up for not being a wall of separate arrays by spinning and moving. Cool I can think of a sci-fantasy setting where a group of explorers or soldiers have linked arrays to combine their signals/readings

How much do proficiencies actually matter in D&D? Like, you've got schmucks running around with fireballs and fingers of death and zombie armies. Do we really care about whether a fighter knows the distinct differences between how to fight with a bastard sword and a rapier? Or quantitating which specific instruments the bard does and doesn't know how to play?

In D&D specifically they matter as little as how rested the cleric, druid, wizard is.

Now how for "getting them to matter"... Shadowrun 4e is pretty good with that right (just combine guns into one firearms category as we have brought up many times through the 2010's)"

Proficiencies can combine with a downtime system too, which is often the information gathering and removing debuffs phase of a tabletop RPG. Say being able to brew gives you tips from the brewers and also reduce stress, bonus to fighting fear etc.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Mar 03, 2020 9:32 am

Prak wrote:How much do proficiencies actually matter in D&D? Like, you've got schmucks running around with fireballs and fingers of death and zombie armies. Do we really care about whether a fighter knows the distinct differences between how to fight with a bastard sword and a rapier? Or quantitating which specific instruments the bard does and doesn't know how to play?

Depends on the edition. The value of proficiencies is the difference in quality between the best Trident you have and the best Morningstar you have. Or the best set of Pan Pipes versus the best Lyre.

In 3rd edition, there are various reasons why that's basically nothing, but in AD&D you could legitimately be in a situation where the best version of one object you had was like +2 or some shit and the best version of the other made you chosen by the Rat Train to lead a literal army of vermin.

If having proficiency with Tridents makes you eligible to be Ocean Master in certain circumstances, the proficiency has at least the capacity to matter. In 3rd, 4th, and 5th edition, proficiencies don't do that. But in 1st and 2nd Edition they definitely did and as such they definitely mattered.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Mar 03, 2020 10:37 am

So, in a hypothetical 3.Hack, it would probably be perfectly fine to say, at least, "if you have Full BAB, you are proficient in all weapons" and "Perform applies to all instruments equally?"

Or just scrap proficiency completely, let people just use whatever weapon fits their concept (including "the one that does the most damage, because my character is a pragmatic ex-soldier") and maybe give the Full BAB characters Combat School for free at first level?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Mar 03, 2020 12:22 pm

Prak wrote:So, in a hypothetical 3.Hack, it would probably be perfectly fine to say, at least, "if you have Full BAB, you are proficient in all weapons" and "Perform applies to all instruments equally?"

Or just scrap proficiency completely, let people just use whatever weapon fits their concept (including "the one that does the most damage, because my character is a pragmatic ex-soldier") and maybe give the Full BAB characters Combat School for free at first level?

Certainly, K and I just gave the fighters in Tome the ability to spend a little bit of time to acclimatize themselves with a weapon and subsequently use it. 3rd edition just doesn't have multiple characters who need Artifact Swords and a need for the DM to enforce who gets which upgrade. Individual items are fairly minor, and weapon proficiency simply isn't a meaningful gatekeeping function.

But if you wanted to go the opposite direction, you could hand out a lot of bonus weapon specialization style feats such that players suffered significant relative penalties when they went off script in weapon use. It wouldn't be intrinsically wrong to turn characters into Diablo II characters.

-Username17

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Tue Mar 03, 2020 2:27 pm

So... what swording fiction out there has wagon cities?

Tolkien mentions the 'wainriders' traveling in big wagons but none have screentime.

In real life we've got the Juggernaut ritual wagons of India, and temples built with great wheels carved into the side

[img]data:image/jpeg;base64,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[/img]

I figure some writer or artist out there has expanded on that concept

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Tue Mar 03, 2020 3:23 pm

OgreBattle wrote:So... what swording fiction out there has wagon cities?

The Abzan from MtG's Khans of Tarkir. They use rhinos and elephants and larger fantasy versions of both to carry forts on their backs or drag entire towns in giant carts.

-Username17

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:54 am

I mean, while it was apparently not very good, there was a recent movie about this sort of thing-

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Wed Mar 04, 2020 3:53 am

I watched Mortal Engines on a plane. It shouldn't and didn't win any academy awards but I'd watch it on a plane again.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Mar 04, 2020 6:10 am

There were neat things about Mortal Engines, but as a movie it is a total fucking mess. There is a major plot point that the assassin lady and the bureaucrat lady have the same father and are thus half sisters. Despite both being major characters, they never interact with each other once this fact is known to either of them. It's just... what the actual fuck?

-Username17

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Wed Mar 04, 2020 7:00 am

Mortal Engines, does it explain why cities are like that, how they feed themselves? Tarkir, do they go from oasis to oasis or have set farmland or is it not really mentioned?

Found a list...
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... seOnWheels

Ah yeah, memories of Gundam X and Ramba Ral, then RIFTS mobile homes is why I'm interested in mobile buildings n' cities.

Emerald · Post by **Emerald** » Wed Mar 04, 2020 10:36 am

Prak wrote:So, in a hypothetical 3.Hack, it would probably be perfectly fine to say, at least, "if you have Full BAB, you are proficient in all weapons" and "Perform applies to all instruments equally?"

Or just scrap proficiency completely, let people just use whatever weapon fits their concept (including "the one that does the most damage, because my character is a pragmatic ex-soldier") and maybe give the Full BAB characters Combat School for free at first level?

Proficiency doesn't just have to be an on-off toggle that applies or negates a -4 penalty. AD&D weapon and nonweapon proficiencies handed out flat "you can now do this thing" benefits in addition to their numerical benefits, and you could spend multiple WP and NWP slots on the same thing to enhance it, so if you wanted proficiencies to matter you could certainly make that happen by giving out free feats or other perks for different weapons at different levels of proficiency.

If, I dunno, Basic Weapon Proficiency (Flails) lets you make combat maneuvers with flails without provoking AoOs, Basic Weapon Proficiency (Swords) lets you inflict bludgeoning/piercing/slashing by striking with the pommel/tip/edge of the blade, Expert Weapon Proficiency (Maces) increases the critical multiplier of maces, Expert Weapon Proficiency (Bows) lets you take Aim actions to reduce range increment penalties, Master Weapon Proficiency (Axes) let you roll every axe damage roll twice and take the better result, and so on and so forth, then suddenly martial types will care more about proficiencies and which weapon types they use. There's definitely a complexity tradeoff, but it'll certainly make them care.

OgreBattle wrote:Proficiencies can combine with a downtime system too, which is often the information gathering and removing debuffs phase of a tabletop RPG. Say being able to brew gives you tips from the brewers and also reduce stress, bonus to fighting fear etc.

Yep, I've done that before and it works nicely. Knowledge proficiencies to enable research montages and let PCs do minor setting-defining declarations, Crafting proficiencies to let PCs craft mundane stuff much faster and turn monster parts into magic items, Regional proficiencies to give PCs special knowledge/contacts/resources in certain areas or with certain factions, and so on.

More than just serving as something to do in town between adventures, it also largely solves both the "I have no reason not to rush from adventure to adventure and go from 1st to 20th in 2 in-game months" issue by incentivizing plenty of downtime and the "I can't take ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneering) or Speak Language (Drow) until we level up after the drow-themed adventure, but then we're doing something else and that'll be pointless" problem by allowing you to pick things up incrementally between level-ups.

maglag · Post by **maglag** » Wed Mar 04, 2020 12:42 pm

OgreBattle wrote:Mortal Engines, does it explain why cities are like that, how they feed themselves?

Didn't watch the movie yet but did read the books and there it works like this:
-Post-apocalyptic setting, big war happened in the past, nuclear bombs and other superweapons being dropped everywhere.
-Major cities mechanized and turned themselves into mobile fortresses to survive.
-They feed mainly by hunting and literally eating other cities, with bigger ones running over smaller cities and swallowing them whole for resources, although small towns may also swarm big wounded cities and tear them piece by piece, otherwise they resort to roaming the post-apocalyptic wastelands looking for stuff to scavenge.
-However that's obviousy not sustainable in the long run since the number of mobile cities is just going down, and it's indeed a major plot point that the remaining mobile cities are "starving". And since everybody kinda ran out of nuclear bombs to throw long ago, several mobile cities start to just stop when they find a piece of land that has escaped all the radiation (or managed to recover) and settle down, becoming "normal" cities again, farming the land and stuff, with eventually a war breaking out between the "farming" coalition and the remaining mobile cities.

Also

One of the mobile cities had the plan to use ancient super-tech to turn the whole planet Earth into a mobile space fortress and go around the universe eating other planets for resources.

ETortoise · Post by **ETortoise** » Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:24 pm

What are some good, generic terms for Gish? I mean, there’s obviously Warrior-Mage, but there’s gotta be something better. The idea is that it’d be an in-game term that could be used to describe a cleric, duskblade or any other fighting+spell casting character.

owlassociate · Post by **owlassociate** » Sun Mar 08, 2020 11:50 pm

Warrior-mage is a really generic description. It might be better to come up with a more defined class description and get a flavorful name from that. Like, what specifically are you imagining this class doing? Are they basically a jedi? Or are they more like a duskblade or a paladin or whatever? If you figure that out, then its a lot easier to come up with a descriptive name like Armiger, Kensai or Bloodmage.

angelfromanotherpin · Mon Mar 09, 2020 12:06 am

Gish is already a pretty good generic term. If you wanted one that was more accessible, maybe 'spellsword.' Sure, clerics don't use swords, but it very succintly and comprehensibly communicates fightan-caster.