Pokemon trainer in 3.5

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Grek
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Post by Grek »

FrankTrollman wrote:OK... you're 3rd level. You have a couple of CR 1 monsters and a couple of CR 2 monsters in your pocket. Which one(s) is (are) a problem?
It's the stuff with SLAs, mostly. Would you rather be a 3rd level wizard, or would you rather have:
  • A dretch (two low DC save or sucks and a fairly unkillable mook)
  • An imp (DC 15 suggestion, commune 6/week attached to an invisible scout)
  • A lantern archon (magic circle against evil, pew pew, aid at will)
  • A krenshar (DC 13 scare at will once per encounter, scent tracking)
  • A small earth elemental (surprisingly good if trained, can walk through walls)
Last edited by Grek on Wed Nov 20, 2019 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Grek wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:OK... you're 3rd level. You have a couple of CR 1 monsters and a couple of CR 2 monsters in your pocket. Which one(s) is (are) a problem?
It's the stuff with SLAs, mostly. Would you rather be a 3rd level wizard, or would you rather have:
  • A dretch (two low DC save or sucks and a fairly unkillable mook)
  • An imp (DC 15 suggestion, commune 6/week attached to an invisible scout)
  • A lantern archon (magic circle against evil, pew pew, aid at will)
  • A krenshar (DC 13 scare at will once per encounter, scent tracking)
  • A small earth elemental (surprisingly good if trained, can walk through walls)
Well that mostly gets into the question of how many battles you get into every day. For a small number of combats, simply having glitter dust, web, sleep, and color spray prepared is going to drop a lot more enemies because the Save DC for your save or lose is going to be 16 or 17 instead of 12.

The 'staying power' argument has been made for a lot of characters whose offensive output is worse than a Wizard's on a round by round bass, and generally D&D combats are over quickly enough that I have not found variants of 'Fighters don't run out of sword swings' to be particularly persuasive. But it is closer at level 3 than it is at like level 9 or something. Mostly because at level 3 running out of relevant spells is something that 'ever happens.'

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Post by Prak »

While, yes, mechanically a Wizard can blow their full load in a single combat and then rest for eight hours, and some groups might actually do that, in my experience, few groups really do, and will in fact balk at the wizard player asking to take an eight hour rest after every combat.

So. Mechanically, sure, staying power isn't much of an argument, but practically, it is.
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Post by Username17 »

Prak wrote:While, yes, mechanically a Wizard can blow their full load in a single combat and then rest for eight hours, and some groups might actually do that, in my experience, few groups really do, and will in fact balk at the wizard player asking to take an eight hour rest after every combat.

So. Mechanically, sure, staying power isn't much of an argument, but practically, it is.
It's not about blowing your entire wad on one battle. It's about how if you drop an AoE SoL with a save DC of 16 on the first turn you've just beaten half the enemies. You don't have to do anything else the whole battle to be MVP. The fact that you could cast more spells if you wanted to is just icing at that point.

It takes a very long adventuring day for even a 3rd level wizard to run out of ways to make the other pcs look bad.

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Post by DSMatticus »

There's a tome class that gets expert sphere access at level 4. There are multiple spheres that are just straight up lists of 'you lose good day sir' spells. Generally, you can assume that a tome character will have a level appropriate action to perform every round. The monster tamer is no exception. Versatility is another issue, but also not one I'm concerned about. The wizard almost certainly has the largest toolbox of any character, and the character with expert sphere access... substantially less so. The monster tamer is potentially closer to the wizard than anything else, but unless they get their christmas wishlist of monsters they're probably never going to actually top the sheer breadth of what the wizard has access to.

You should probably not be worried about the offensive output of the monster tamer, except for the part where they can get UMD and get to effectively use wands as a swift action wand from level 1. That's just straight-up unnecessarily good. They don't need it. Shared actions, standard action to direct monster, whatever, go.

But a monster tamer with 20 charisma isn't a singular wizard. They're six different characters with six different healthpools that can tank six different saving throws before being removed from combat. The last character kind of sucks, so realistically that six is actually five, but whatever.
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Post by Grek »

FrankTrollman wrote:But it is closer at level 3 than it is at like level 9 or something. Mostly because at level 3 running out of relevant spells is something that 'ever happens.
Right. And at level 9 you're showing up with the eight meanest things you've beaten in the past week (courtesy of your double-team of fomorian taskmasters) or 40 gargantuan animated iron statues (courtesy of your double team of ravids) or an eight headed pyrohydra (with 16 heads, because you're obviously going to prebuff it every morning with an axe) who opens every battle by droping breath attack for 48d6 damage, DC 20 for half.

It gets worse as you go up in level, not better.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Pokemon Trainer
"Pikachu use Thundershock!"

Since this is about a bunch of people talking about pokemon classes and I've been asked about my opinions, I will describe the design decisions I've made in this class.

1) The Pokemon Trainer is a valid target, but has good defenses. They also can't really hide very well because of the rules on controlling pokemon.

2) The Trainer uses their actions to control the pokemon, so they never have additional wand actions, or move actions to push animal pokemon (because animals aren't pokemon).

3) They have to catch pokemon with the Pokeballs, so they mostly have an incentive to try to catch everything they come across. They can store an infinite amount as well. But can only have the 6 subbed out. This is also a combat action that costs against pokemon actions like in the games, and is likely to fail against most enemies, but theoretically possible.

4) Changing Out Pokemon costs combat actions, so while you don't want to let them die, you aren't quite 6 consecutive fights. And also enemies can attack the trainer so they can end it sooner.

5) It doesn't allow true Monster Advancement, just gives a stopgap leveling until you catch or evolve a better pokemon.

6) It gives DMs an explicit say in the evolution process, but doesn't otherwise stop Monster Manual Dumpster Diving. If you play the Monster Manual Dumpster Diving class, you probably want to be able to Monster Manual Dumpster Dive. This is just to prevent the worst possible abuses of like Hook Horrors or whatever.

7) Undead and animals aren't pokemon. Animals because "Rat into Rat Demon" is too easy an evolution argument, repeated for every possible monster (I don't want pokemasters to always be going around collecting random animals to transform into the cool monsters, want them to collect cool monsters to transform) and undead partially because Necromancer is different from Pokemaster and should have their own role, and also to avoid Allips or Shadows, despite that Ghastly exists.

Hit Die: d12
Base Attack Bonus: Full
Good Saving Throws: All Good Saves
Skill Points: 6+Int
Class Skills: Whatever
Level:Abilities:
1:Pokeballs, The Team, Return, Pokecenter
2:Badges
3:Leveling Up
4:
5:
6:Evolution
7:
8:
9:
10:
11:
12:
13:
14:
15:
16:
17:
18:
19:
20: Masterball

Proficiencies: A Pokemaster is proficient with all melee weapons including improvised melee weapons and all Armors.

Pokeballs (Su): A Pokemaster can as a standard action throw a Pokeball. This is a ranged touch attack to hit. If the Pokeball hits a Pokemon then the Pokemon makes a will save, a fort save, and a reflex save. If it fails all three, it is caught inside the Pokeball. Unconscious Pokemon are willing and fail all the saves.

If a Pokemaster has more than 6 Pokemon inside Pokeballs on their person, then they must immediately choose one or more to send to "The Box" which is an extradimensional pocket they store Pokemon in.

"Pokemon" are any Aberration, Dragon, Elemental, Magical Beast, Ooze, Outsider, Plant, or Vermin which advances by "Hit Dice" rather than "By Character Class."

The Team (Ex): A Pokemaster has a Team which is any Pokemon they have on them in Pokeballs at the time which are CR 1/2 or lower. As a Standard Action a Pokemaster can throw a Pokeball containing a Pokemon to unleash them.

An Unleashed Pokemon is magically controlled by the Trainer. As a Standard Action the Pokemaster can cause them to take a full round of actions for one round including Attacks of Opportunity and Immediate Actions until the Pokemasters next turn, usually by shouting a specific fighting move, but that's optional. Otherwise the Pokemon stands still doing nothing. The Pokemon must be able to either see or hear the Pokemaster for this to work.

Return (Su): A Pokemaster can Return their Pokemon to the Pokeball as an immediate action.

Pokecenter (Ex): A Pokemaster can heal all their Pokemon to full health and replenish their daily abilities once per day either by resting per eight hours. If they don't do this, their Pokemon in Pokeballs don't heal naturally or regain daily abilities.

At the end of this rest they can put any Pokemon they have on them into The Box and withdraw from The Box any Pokemon they have in there so that they have a new Team.

Badges (Ex): At every level past one of Pokemaster the Pokemaster gains a new badge, this can have any name, but the Pokemaster must come up with the name themselves. Each Badge expands the CR of a Pokemon that can be on the Team to CR equal to the Pokemaster level of the Badge minus one.

Leveling Up (Ex): At level 3 a Pokemaster can level up their Pokemon via training. Given 24 hours of training a Pokemon can be leveled up. This grants bonus HD of the Pokemons type. Each HD a Pokemon gains this way increases it's CR by 1. Yes, this means Pokemon CR is way worse than regular monster CR for leveled Pokemon.

Evolution (Ex): At level 6 a Pokemasters Pokemon can evolve. Evolving Pokemon require a week of training and can turn into anything your DM will let you argue is like, totally a cool evolution that makes sense. So you can probably turn your Flaming Horse into a cooler flaming horse, or your demon into a cooler demon, but probably not a demon into an angel or a flaming horse into a seahorse. Although you can always look up specific weird pokemon to argue that your trash monster should be able to turn into a candlestick or whatever.

Masterball (Su): One of the Pokemasters Pokeballs becomes a Masterball, which gives no saving throw. Once it has caught a Pokemon it is used, but the Pokemaster can release the Pokemon inside the Masterball and have the Masterball back and use it on another Pokemon.
Last edited by Kaelik on Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Grek wrote:Right. And at level 9 you're showing up with the eight meanest things you've beaten in the past week (courtesy of your double-team of fomorian taskmasters) or 40 gargantuan animated iron statues (courtesy of your double team of ravids) or an eight headed pyrohydra (with 16 heads, because you're obviously going to prebuff it every morning with an axe) who opens every battle by droping breath attack for 48d6 damage, DC 20 for half.

It gets worse as you go up in level, not better.
A level 9 conduit/warlock has at will dominate person with no four creature limit, the 'random object in 20ft' part of the ravid's ability is going to make it a nightmare to actually resolve what objects you get (DM: "fuck you we're counting the hundred tiny pebbles on the ground around you"), and pyrohydras are fucking insane on both sides of the field. They're roughly 1 CR per head before 'buffing' and their breath weapon does 3d6 damage per head. I think they may actually be peak closet troll.

I'm not really disagreeing with you, mind. The monster tamer is absolutely the tippy top of Tome tier, and like all the other tippy top Tome tier classes it just gets more and more obvious as you level up, and actually having one at your table requires a certain degree of deoptimization, sandbagging, and spot nerfing. They're wizards who cast spells through their familiars and also their familiars are bears and also they have a bunch of reserve familiars in case the first one gets knocked out of the fight. And the part of that you can't really sandbag/nerf on a monster-by-monster basis (the way we expect wizards to sandbag by not using certain spells, or deliberately using them inoptimally) is the part where they have somewhere between 4 and infinity reserve familiars.

A level 9 monster tamer could pull out every single trick you described, watch that trick fail and their monster get its ass kicked, and then still have 2-3 more monsters to go. Actually, that's a lie, the monster tamer got transfer control at level 8 and can change the monsters they're controlling as a full-round action, so while the pyrohydra is getting its ass kicked they're relinquishing control of the formorian taskmasters and ravids in order to establish control over literally anything else they have in their backpack.
Last edited by DSMatticus on Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Grek wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:But it is closer at level 3 than it is at like level 9 or something. Mostly because at level 3 running out of relevant spells is something that 'ever happens.
Right. And at level 9 you're showing up with the eight meanest things you've beaten in the past week (courtesy of your double-team of fomorian taskmasters) or 40 gargantuan animated iron statues (courtesy of your double team of ravids) or an eight headed pyrohydra (with 16 heads, because you're obviously going to prebuff it every morning with an axe) who opens every battle by droping breath attack for 48d6 damage, DC 20 for half.

It gets worse as you go up in level, not better.
A 9th level Wizard has lesser planar binding and charm monster. They can not only conjure their own minions, they can have them all active at the same time. If you want to go full frontal stupidity with RAW monster shenanigans, the limit for the Wizard is much higher than it is for the Pokemaster.

The Pokemaster is different from the Chain Binding Wizard in the following ways:
  • You are limited to monsters you actually meet and beat up during the campaign instead of just making a bear lore roll.
  • You get to have one at a time instead of having all your charmed minions out at once.
  • Your limit is based on CR instead of Hit Dice.
That's it. All of those things make it more reasonable. The CR limit means that you can grab brute monsters but can't grab some of the overpowered low hit die caster demons. That's much less worrying, to be honest.

Yeah, Pokemasters are Wizard Tier, but they aren't actually as powerful as Wizards. Don't be stupid.

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Post by radthemad4 »

Okay, I'll eat my crow on the CR - 1 is too strong thing when compared to other Wizard Tier things and other Tome things without shenanigans in and of itself

Still, the default advancement rules lead to things like http://www.monsteradvancer.com/generate ... ultiattack , which is perfectly CR 2
Grek wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:OK... you're 3rd level. You have a couple of CR 1 monsters and a couple of CR 2 monsters in your pocket. Which one(s) is (are) a problem?
It's the stuff with SLAs, mostly. Would you rather be a 3rd level wizard, or would you rather have:
  • A dretch (two low DC save or sucks and a fairly unkillable mook)
  • An imp (DC 15 suggestion, commune 6/week attached to an invisible scout)
  • A lantern archon (magic circle against evil, pew pew, aid at will)
  • A krenshar (DC 13 scare at will once per encounter, scent tracking)
  • A small earth elemental (surprisingly good if trained, can walk through walls)
Hippogriffs can be a flying mount and are decent bruisers. Thoqquas can create tunnels as they burrow and can burrow through stone. The SRD doesn't say so, but that's in the Monster Manual. The Earth Elemental can also be advanced nicely
Last edited by radthemad4 on Thu Nov 21, 2019 4:11 am, edited 9 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

The Monster Advancement rules are contradictory and full of peril. Depending on how you interpret the instructions you can get flabby worthless monsters with nothing but a higher bab and hit point total that can't carry their weight in combat or brutally overpowered things that roflstomp everything at their level.

That is factually the case. Monster advancement doesn't work terribly well and needs heavy DM involvement.

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