Pokemon trainer in 3.5

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Pokemon trainer in 3.5

Post by radthemad4 »

So, 3.5 has a bunch of Pokemon statted out already. Also, Frank's trainer exists but has some issues.
Kaelik wrote:This class is bad, and anyone who likes it is bad, and anyone who thinks it is too weak is drunk and bad.

1) "everyone else has better summons, look at all these classes that can summon something of HALF THEIR CR! Isn't that stronger than CR-1?" No. Basically never. Even at level 1, when the Summoner could use the mighty CR 1/3rd DOG, the Pokemaster is rocking 3 FUCKING DOGS (because dogs acting like they are supposed to is being told to do combat tricks with a move action each.) So I have no idea what level you think a CR = 1/2 your CR monster is ever better than Multiple CR -1 Monsters.

2) This class isn't "the single best monster of CR-1 to face this encounter" which could plausibly be considered "balanced" except for point 3. It's "That + two actions, which can be pushing animals, or using wands, or literally anything including casting spells after you spend one level in this class and just get to have 6 cohorts of CR-1 for your"

It's also "then the next best monster, then the next, basically I have 5-10 times the HP of everyone else, man, that will never help against monsters."

So basically, it's way stronger than "the CR system" by kind of a lot.

3) "It's balanced against the CR system, so it's fine" NOPE completely wrong. To demonstrate, let's look at a WEIRD SITUATION, which is, let's say that there exists somewhere in the the universe of all D&D books, a single monster at every single CR that is overpowered for that CR, and let's assume, for the sake of argument, that people mostly know what those are.

a) DM uses Overpowered Monster: Party has tougher than normal fight, but uses 80% of resources instead of 20% without losing though, and then rests, and the DM doesn't use that monster again.

b) Pokemaster uses Overpowered Monster: Party trivializes CR appropriate encounter..... and then EVERY SINGLE ONE FROM NOW ON.

No that's even before getting into the other issues which are: If everyone knows X is OP at CR 6, then the DM has incentive to not use it, and Pokemasters have the incentive to summon it from the ether with magic powers of turning a rat into literally anything in the Monster Manual.

Also, the other issue: the Monsters in the MM are good, the monster advancement rules are FUCKING GARBAGE. So if you are a DM and can't appreciate power, you can just use printed monsters, but if you are a pokemaster, you are explicitly told to morph all your shit into the most broken shit you can manage with crazy as advancement rules. You get you that CR 9 Disjunction at will monster, you get you that CL 24 Blasphemy at CR 11. GO TO TOWNNNNNN.

In Conclusion, don't play this fucking class, play a Summoner, thank you and good day.
Like sure, a Summoner is neat and all, but it feels like a different thing. Now, there are certainly a bunch of ways to play something similar to a trainer, like being a Changeling Morphic Familiarmancer, or taking this PF third party class or a summoner of some sort, but they're not quite the same thing.

Here's my attempt at trying to squeeze a square peg into a round hole

Prelude

Pokemon: Any creature explicitly labelled as a Pokemon is a Pokemon. Such creatures are particularly amenable to befriending and/or working with other creatures, though typically this requires another creature to 'prove their worth' by defeating the Pokemon in battle (however sometimes giving them treats and/or gifts and/or befriending them works too and sometimes they may even approach and take a liking to another creature of their own volition (I don't fucking know... use whatever you normally use for diplomacy type stuff or MTP this I guess) ). Similarly, they may also be coerced into cooperation through threats and intimidation instead. If a creature is not explicitly labelled as a Pokemon, it can be considered a Pokemon if it is an Aberration, Animal, Dragon, Elemental, Fey, Magical Beast, Ooze, Outsider, Plant, or Vermin which advances by "Hit Dice" rather than "By Character Class". Creatures which can advance by hit dice or character class – like Beholders – are Pokémon even if they have character class levels.

Poke Ball: A Poke Ball is a small spherical item that can contain Pokemon in an extradimensional space. The Poke Ball magically adjusts this space to be reasonably comfortable for whatever Pokemon is inside it upon entry. The Pokemon doesn't need to eat or breathe while inside and time spent inside counts as complete bed rest for the purposes of natural healing, fatigue and exhaustion. If the Pokemon is dying on entry, it gets stabilized. The Pokemon can take any equipment it has into the Poke Ball, except for any equipment involving extradimensional space (including other Poke Balls), which fall down harmlessly beside the Poke Ball.

Empty: When an empty ball is in contact with a Pokemon, the Pokemon gets pulled inside. If a creature isn't explicitly labelled as a Pokemon, and has an Int score of less than 3, it typically* becomes friendly towards whoever last touched the Poke Ball if it spends more than three rounds inside the Poke Ball, at which point it becomes Attuned (if whoever used the ball has fewer than 6 Poke Balls attuned) or Dormant. The Pokemon can leave the Poke Ball as a free action if it wishes, if it does so before the ball becomes Attuned or Dormant. Weaker Pokemon (CR 1 or less) sometimes choose to stay inside a Poke Ball, even without further prompting (if the Pokemon is an NPC and either explicitly labelled as a Pokemon, or has an Int of less than 3, roll 1d4 and it stays inside on a roll of 4). A Poke Ball can be treated as an exotic thrown weapon with a range increment of 20 ft that does no damage.

* Exceptions include, but aren't limited to, a Pokemon that was trained to be hostile towards particular groups of people (e.g. guard dogs) that include the ball's user, a pet or an animal companion who knows that the ball's user is its masters enemy, Pokemon who were tortured or otherwise mistreated by the ball thrower ('Challenging it to a battle' is something wild Pokemon are always okay with)

Attuned: A creature can have upto 6 Poke Balls attuned. A Pokemon inside an attuned Poke Ball can hear outside of it, and may choose to leave any time with a standard action, appearing in an empty adjacent space. Someone holding the ball can also take out the Pokemon anywhere within 30 ft of them as a standard action, in which case it doesn't use the Pokemon's action. A creature can attune 6 Poke Balls with 15 minutes of concentration, which leaves any previously attuned Poke Balls Dormant. An Pokemon brought out from an attuned Poke Ball can be returned to the ball with a standard action.


Pokemon Trainer

HD: d8
BAB: Medium
Saves: Good Reflex and Fort

Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (special), Survival (Wis).

Skill points per level: 6 + Int Modifier

Proficiencies: Poke Balls, Simple weapons, Nets, Bolas, Orcish Shotputs, Halfling Skiprocks, Harpoons, Shuriken, and Whips. Light armor. Can do non lethal damage without penalties if they want.

Level 1

Pokemon Empathy: A Pokemon trainer has Wild Empathy, as a Druid, except this works on any Pokemon and has no penalty when used on Magical Beasts

Party: Pokemon trainers can have upto 6 Pokemon their party. If a Pokemon in the party is killed, that party slot cannot be filled for a day, though reviving the Pokemon restores it to the same slot. Switching to a different party takes 15 minutes and this time can also be used to reattune different Poke Balls. Only Pokemon of the trainer's current Max CR (see table) may join the party.

Starting Pokemon: At level 1, a trainer starts with any Pokemon of less than CR 1. If a game starts at higher levels, the trainer starts with 2 Pokemon per level, at the trainer's max CR. Consult the DM for available Pokemon in the setting.

Train Pokemon: If a Pokemon has a lower CR than the trainer's current maximum (see table), the trainer may advance the creature.

...Advancement Rules...

Poke Balls: A trainer has an arbitrary number of Poke Balls they never run out of. Maybe they craft them themselves, or they buy them or they inherited a supply. Use whatever fluff is most suitable for the campaign.

Active Pokemon: By spending a standard action once per turn, a trainer can inspire any one Pokemon in their party (this can also be combined with the standard action to take a Pokemon out of its Poke Ball), boosting its abilities (see table). The Dmg1 value is added to any HP damage inflicted by an Active Pokemon on it's first attack, iteratives and AoOs, and the DmgA is added to the HP damage inflicted by other attacks. This applies to all types of damage, even from special attacks, spell like abilities or spells. Area of Effect damage and damage over time damage always add DmgA values instead of Dmg1 values. This does not apply to ability score damage. The attack value may also be added to maneuver checks such as trip attempts. Active Pokemon can do non lethal damage with any of their attacks or special attacks if they choose to at no penalty. Active Pokemon count as having the same HD as the trainer's level for effects inflicted on them based on HD (e.g. Color Spray) if it would otherwise be lower. From level 7 onwards, a trainer may have two active Pokemon at once, but the table benefits (besides Resolve) are four levels lower while two Pokemon are active.

Resolve: Any time an Active Pokemon takes damage, the trainer can opt to motivate the Pokemon to keep going, instead transferring any amount of the damage to the resolve pool (see table) as a non action, which decreases by that amount. This is a single resource shared amongst all party Pokemon, and can be refreshed with 15 minutes of rest (this can be combined with a party switch). Resolve can be used on a party Pokemon that isn't active, but this depletes the resolve pool twice as much as it would for an Active Pokemon.

Code: Select all

Lvl   Max CR  Resolve Attack   Dmg1   DmgA  Save DC AC  Saves
 1      <1        5    3        6       2     2     2    2
 2      1        10    3        6       2     2     2    2
 3      1        15    3        6       2     2     2    2
 4      2        20    3        8       2     2     2    2
 5      2        25    4       10       3     2     3    3
 6      3        30    4       11       3     2     3    3
 7      4        35    5       12       4     2     3    3
 8      5        40    5       13       4     3     4    3
 9      6        45    6       14       4     3     4    3
10      7        50    6       15       5     3     4    3
11      8        55    6       16       5     3     4    4
12      9        60    6       17       5     3     4    4
13     10        65    7       18       6     3     5    4
14     11        70    7       19       6     3     5    4
15     12        75    7       20       6     4     5    4
16     13        80    7       22       7     4     5    4
17     14        85    8       24       8     4     6    5
18     15        90    8       26       8     4     6    5
19     16        95    8       28       9     4     6    5
20     17       100    8       30      10     4     6    5
The hope is I suppose that trainers don't take out 6 at once when in combat because AoEs can empty the resolve pool super fast and that the Pokemon can more easily suffer damage and/or other debilitating conditions without the buffs they get from being active (and they're somewhat lower CR than the trainer anyway). So anyway, feedback?
Last edited by radthemad4 on Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:31 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Pokemon has 6 Pokemon 'cause it's a single player RPG based off of Shin Megami Tensei (and other games) which has 6 party slots

So I don't think it's important to be attached to the number 6.

My students who just beat the Tomb of Horrors said AD&D is "like Pokemon", and each of them just summoned one undead or winged hippo or goo demon. In the Pokemon anime past we have a wizard looking fellow who can put monsters in the extradimensional space in his staff. We see him summon a flying monster when he needs to fly, and he kinda works as a D&D summoner.

Image

So I figure a Pokemon feeling (just feeling, not exact) D&D character would be a summoner who can bring out one monster at a time, drawing from the monster list that already exists in D&D, and perhaps can have up to 6 monsters to choose from at a time.

There are lots of folks that want to specifically have a charizard and not a fire dragon type D&D monster though, so my opinions are just mine.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Just a point: I have never responded to Kaelik's criticisms of the Pokemaster in the last seventeen years because it has always been gibberish. Every so often Kaelik goes off on weird rants with a lot of insults and... gaps... in the logic and I really have no need to engage with him.

This isn't new, and it's honestly never stopped. Just a few days ago I expressed regret that Evo Morales had failed to build a durable movement that he could constitutionally pass power to and had instead attacked the constitution in a blatant power grab. Which of course created an opening for a racist right wing coup that is even now murdering lots of people. And he spent many posts accusing me of being in favor of that coup. It's exhausting and offensive and there's no point in even continuing that conversation once he gets like that.

The fact that he got like that one time about the Pokemaster character class isn't something I could constructively talk about at the time, and it still isn't. Sometimes Kaelik is just an asshole.

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Post by The Adventurer's Almanac »

Sometimes?
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Post by Prak »

Honestly... I don't think the Pathfinder Summoner would be a terrible pokemaster class. There's an archetype that lets you change up your eidolon (tho it's form is still set for a day) and they get Summon Monster spells as spell-like abilities 3+Cha times per day, plus partial spell casting.

I think you could do something with that with only small changes, like maybe the eidolon is the summoner's main pokemon, and the summoner can use Summon Monster more times per day if they have a set list of monsters/are limited to monsters they've caught, or they can trade spell levels for additional uses of their Summon Monster spell-like.

Or, hell, take away the spell-casting and give them a Summoning Sphere that improves every few levels.

Alternatively, maybe take out the Summon Monster ability and say they can change the eidolon's forrm between a set list based on what they've caught using a full round action to switch out pokemon, and then refluff the spellcasting as using pokemon for the effects.

It seems pretty easy to replicate pokemon with the eidolon. Charmander is a small bipod eidolon with fire immunity and a tail for a first level Summoner, and maybe learns Metal Claw (improved damage) when the Summoner hits 2nd level, which then gets swapped out for Ember (burning hands) when the Summoner hits 3rd, and so on. Squirtle is a small bipod eidolon with gills, improved defense and slam for a first level summoner, at second, add Reach and say the Reach attack is Bubble Beam, at 3rd swap out Slam for Elemental Attacks or something.
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Post by Koumei »

(Regarding the dismissal of Kaelik's responses and being an asshole.)

Okay, but be that as it may be that as it is, let's still look at some of the criticisms on their own, and there could probably be a reasonable discussion there:
Even at level 1, when the Summoner could use the mighty CR 1/3rd DOG, the Pokemaster is rocking 3 FUCKING DOGS (because dogs acting like they are supposed to is being told to do combat tricks with a move action each.)
Now I don't know what the solution to level 1 is for anything because level 1 is just a fucking mess of weird problems in D&D. Completely different to the problems at higher levels, but still problems and still not something you'd want to play. So whatever, let's crank it up a bit higher: at level 5-6, a Wizard could summon a CR 2-3 creature. Now yes, the Wizard is playing "fire and forget" with that - no need to issue commands every turn, and actually has an array of other things to do with the actions like "make a cloud that nauseates everyone" or "turn everyone invisible" or "suggest the enemy punch themselves in the nuts for a while". Also the Wizard has no reason to care how much damage the CR 2-3 creature takes because its life is measured in rounds regardless.

On the other hand, each spell slot spent doing that is an actual cost to the Wizard, and even if the summon takes no damage, its entire existence is a few rounds. And the Wizard is using a very specific fixed list there (well, pseudo-fixed. Later books add extra options and things.) It really feels like there are costs and limitations (to the point that you typically have to ask if summoning some stuff is even what you want to be doing).
This class isn't "the single best monster of CR-1 to face this encounter" which could plausibly be considered "balanced" except for point 3. It's "That + two actions, which can be pushing animals, or using wands, or literally anything including casting spells after you spend one level in this class and just get to have 6 cohorts of CR-1 for your"

It's also "then the next best monster, then the next, basically I have 5-10 times the HP of everyone else, man, that will never help against monsters."
The solution to the first bit is basically to require that your actions are spent shouting "Go Axeface! Use shin splints!" or whatever. Once you're not allowed to have a pokemon "do anything beyond carrying you about" and also "do real actions at the same time", that's solved.

I'm not sure what to do about the second bit. Because unless the enemy can actually disable the trainer (something they're now heavily incentivised to do), knocking out your Axeface simply means you bring out your Gonglenaught or whatever.
a) DM uses Overpowered Monster: Party has tougher than normal fight, but uses 80% of resources instead of 20% without losing though, and then rests, and the DM doesn't use that monster again.

b) Pokemaster uses Overpowered Monster: Party trivializes CR appropriate encounter..... and then EVERY SINGLE ONE FROM NOW ON.
I'm generally fine with a situation where, once the DM introduces something, the players can throw it right back at them, so that's not really a big deal if it results in the DM being a bit more careful about what they use. Also most (admittedly not all) of the overpowered monsters don't qualify as Pokemon. Of course it works a lot better when you're actually using pokemon and not D&D monsters, because these are hand-made to work specifically for this class.
Pokemasters have the incentive to summon it from the ether with magic powers of turning a rat into literally anything in the Monster Manual.
As long as you hammer out what can evolve into what, and how "no there is no evolutionary line that results in anything turning into a Clockwork Horror" then I don't see that bit becoming a problem. This gets back to the bit where it works better with actual pokemon made for purpose.
Also, the other issue: the Monsters in the MM are good, the monster advancement rules are FUCKING GARBAGE. So if you are a DM and can't appreciate power, you can just use printed monsters, but if you are a pokemaster, you are explicitly told to morph all your shit into the most broken shit you can manage with crazy as advancement rules. You get you that CR 9 Disjunction at will monster, you get you that CL 24 Blasphemy at CR 11. GO TO TOWNNNNNN.
I think even if you're using D&D monsters and not just pokemon created for purpose, this needs addressing. And part of that is by pointing out problem creatures and just saying "Nobody should use these on either side of the screen. If anybody at the table is reading this sentence then declare this now, it is now actual law and if such a creature appears you will be arrested." But also I would not suggest that people should be capturing creatures then advancing them by 3-4 hit dice per level, because the least bad result of this is it's the same creature but with stupidly high HP and Saves that makes people think about 4Ed and get sad.

I'm mostly seeing "don't use the Monster Manual, only use the Pokedex" as the solution for this. This in turn means the DM is down with populating the world with pokemon, which in turn means it's basically a Pokemon game using D&D rules and not a D&D game that has the pokemaster in it.
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Post by Username17 »

See, I just straight punch out on the very first sentence, because the 'Pokemaster controls 3 Dogs' rant is not actually a feature of the class. Like, at all.

I think he was ranting about how Handle Animal is broken at low levels because spending money on a pack of dogs gives you more offensive output than what other 1st level PCs are capable of. But that's extremely spherical cow, since of course packs of dogs aren't readily usable in a lot of common low level adventure circumstances. But more generally, this is not actually relevant to the class one way or the other. Whatever issues dog packs have or don't have are the same for Pokemasters as they are for Rangers. Or indeed Fighters, because they get Handle Animal too.

It starts with gibberish and doesn't actually stop being gibberish at any point. I can't engage with any part of it, because it's not actually a critique of the thing I wrote, it's just a free flowing rant full of insults.

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Post by Prak »

Yeah, I guess he's saying that while only one Controlled pokemon acts like a summoned creature, any others will act as normal for their type, so, sure, you can stand there, and Dog 1 will just attack opponents to the best of their ability and you can use Handle Animal to command two others to use their Attack trick.

But, I mean, a guard dog is 25 gold. There's not really anything preventing most 1st level characters from having two or three pet dogs and maybe starting combat by summoning another creature, and then each round, they have a summoned creature attacking on its own and they spend their action commanding two others. I mean, ok, they probably want other gear, but... a wizard or sorcerer can just have a couple guard dogs, and their familiar (lets say its a crow), and then summon an animal, and there you go, you have one player controlling four creatures in a single combat, because the familiar and summoned creatures can attack on their own, and then the wizard uses two move actions each round to command the other two.

Hell, for that matter, a mule is 8gp and CR 1. Buy two mules and train them for combat and leave the dog at home.

ETA- that said, maybe there could be some like "you can command a number of pokemon at once equal to (Character Level and CR equation that says something like "1 CL-1, 2 CL-2, 3 CL-4" or whatever) and any pokemon beyond that limit loaf around and refuse to act unless directed threatened."
Last edited by Prak on Tue Nov 19, 2019 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
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You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by Username17 »

Prak wrote:ETA- that said, maybe there could be some like "you can command a number of pokemon at once equal to (Character Level and CR equation that says something like "1 CL-1, 2 CL-2, 3 CL-4" or whatever) and any pokemon beyond that limit loaf around and refuse to act unless directed threatened."
Pokemaster Level 4 Class Feature wrote:Double Team: Upon reaching 4th level, the Pokémaster is able to control two Pokémon out of their balls simultaneously, even in battle. This ability only functions so long as both Pokémon are more than 2 CR less than the Pokémaster's caster level. For example, a 5th level Pokémaster could command a single CR 4 Pokémon in battle or two CR 2 Pokémon, but could not command a CR 1 Pokémon and a CR 3 Pokémon simultaneously.
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Post by Prak »

Fair, I mean from the beginning. Or just change the behaviour of additional pokemon at first level to "will not fight unless directly threatened."

But, like I said, any character can have two CR 1 creatures under their control at 1st level for 16gp, plus whatever class feature animals they have.
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Post by DSMatticus »

If you care about the action economy, then either 1) the pokemon have to use the trainer's actions, or 2) the trainer can never have any decent actions. 1 is very easy. 2 is kind of hard when UMD exists. Wands can usually guarantee at least moderately useful actions.

If you care about the fact that the trainer is six (bajillion) pokemon that need to be defeated in sequence followed by a trainer hiding behind a tree somewhere with a wand of invisibility, then the pokemon need to share a health pool. Unfortunately, this feels very unpokemon. Rad's resolve pool doesn't do this. It's a buff pool whose duration is measured in health, not a health pool. It's also not really enough to limit the trainer to six pokemon or whatever, because six is still enough that anyone who cares is still going to be bothered.

If you care about the fact that the trainer can dumpster dive / lucky day into OP pokemon, then you need pre-written lists of approved monsters for them to pokemonize. But I'm pretty sure that like 90% of the fun people have playing pokemon trainer classes is dumpster diving the MM for exotic, broken pokemon, so this is a somewhat unsatisfying solution. It's also just a lot of work.

Should you actually care that the monster tamer breaks the action economy, produces a seemingly endless conga line of monsters, and frequently benefits from dumpster diving even more than a wizard? ... Yes? Probably?

Monster tamers basically get the equivalent of swift action wand use from level 1 on (not that a level 1 monster tamer is likely to have any wands), and that's fairly crazy. For comparison, since he's been mentioned, Kaelik's icewright gets a useful swift action at level 7 - the lowly grease spell. Offensive swift actions are not new to Tome, but they generally aren't "whatever wands I happen to have lying around" crazy.

And while in theory you can just have team monster ignore the pokemon and beeline straight for the tamer... the last time I heard that recommendation was a grognard in a wizard v fighter thread, and I thought it was stupid then, and it works even less here because at least wizards have to actually expose themself and engage in battle, even if at a distance. The monster tamer really can just wand of invisibility behind a nearby tree and do nothing except conga line pokemon as needed. But at the end of the day "if team monster has a problem dealing with what a PC can throw out they can just focus fire him until he explodes" just isn't a particularly satisfying solution for anyone involved.

And even I don't really care about people dumpster diving the MM. Wizards dumpster diving splats for broken spells has dropped the bottom out of my fucks on that front. If there are problems, spot-nerf it, or just bite the bullet and use pre-approved lists at the cost of your time and their fun.

Ultimately, shared actions and a shared health pool is sufficient to get a pokemon trainer in line with other PC classes - with the only difference being that the pokemon trainer can rebuild their entire character on the fly, limited by what monsters they've managed to pokemonize. That's a little crazy, but it's probably in the realm of cleric/wizard crazy most of the time and therefore acceptable.
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Post by erik »

For monster DCs what if they were capped using the pokemasters charisma to determine the DC? So you have incentive to get stronger critters but dont break the RNG on that basis.
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Post by DSMatticus »

I suppose it's a relatively harmless failsafe against overstatted caster monsters. I have no idea how many of those there are, but if you're a PC who dumpster dives the MM for powers you'll find them if they exist.

There are generally way more crazy things caster monsters let you do than have slightly higher than expected save DC's, but conduit exists and will give you all kinds of at-will bullshit so ehh.
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Post by Username17 »

erik wrote:For monster DCs what if they were capped using the pokemasters charisma to determine the DC? So you have incentive to get stronger critters but dont break the RNG on that basis.
Monster abilities are pretty fucking rando in what they do. The Breath Weapon of a Black Dragon is very different to the Breath Weapon of a Gorgon. If the DC of the first was pushed off the RNG I wouldn't honestly care very much - it's just a modest amount of extra damage. If the latter DC was pushed off the RNG the game would be over because it immediately ends combat when it works.

What 3rd edition should have had is a range of DCs per level, with stuff like slow and lightning bolt usually working, stuff like charm monster and flesh to stone usually not working, and stuff like grease and color spray working an in between amount. Of course, it didn't have that, and in its absence any particular ability is can be good, bad, or in-between with a Save DC that's high, low, or in the middle.

There isn't a simple rubric to determine what is and is not OP when it comes to monster abilities. Monsters aren't out of line because of the specific DCs they have, but because of extremely orthogonal questions about what happens when you do or do not make the referenced save. Hamhanded number limits like DC caps aren't likely to snag the worst offenders of OP bullshit because I can't think of many monsters that are OP because they have save DCs that are too high. The most offensive monsters from a power perspective don't even allow saving throws. Like that stupid low CR demon that can spam blasphemy.

You need to curate the monsters that players fight and you need to curate the monsters the Pokemaster has in his arsenal. Arbitrary number games are not a substitute for that.

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Post by deaddmwalking »

FrankTrollman wrote: What 3rd edition should have had is a range of DCs per level, with stuff like slow and lightning bolt usually working, stuff like charm monster and flesh to stone usually not working, and stuff like grease and color spray working an in between amount. Of course, it didn't have that, and in its absence any particular ability is can be good, bad, or in-between with a Save DC that's high, low, or in the middle.
In a 3.x framework, how would you approach something like that? Make SoD/SoS base DC 5 (plus standard bonuses), regular attacks as normal and 'weak' attacks a 15?

I've always thought that DCs should be independent of spell level - I hate to see someone use a 5th level spell instead of a 1st level spell because the resist check is 4 higher.
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Post by Emerald »

deaddmwalking wrote:In a 3.x framework, how would you approach something like that? Make SoD/SoS base DC 5 (plus standard bonuses), regular attacks as normal and 'weak' attacks a 15?
A common approach to that is giving all SoS spells a less-debilitating base effect and gating the normal effect behind a fail-by-X setup, which is basically equivalent to reducing all their save DCs by X but throwing the caster a bone if the target(s) succeeds by a small margin. You could then similarly give weaker spells a stronger-effect-unless-you-save-by-X rider, but that's not as common as far as I've seen.

Coming up with suitable strengthened and diminished effects for every spell out there can be a chore, though, and it's definitely easy to err on the side of the spells ending up too weak (cf. PF2's implementation), so it's a tricky balancing act.
I've always thought that DCs should be independent of spell level - I hate to see someone use a 5th level spell instead of a 1st level spell because the resist check is 4 higher.
I often houserule the DC to be 10 + 1/2 CL + casting stat, the same way monster abilities are all 10 + 1/2 HD + Cha, and that works nicely at keeping lower-level spells relevant. You just have to specify base CL to avoid CL bonus stacking also giving you DC bonus stacking, and/or rein in the various ways to jack your CL into the stratosphere, but the latter is a good thing to do anyway.
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Post by radthemad4 »

I kinda want to see a bunch of Summon Monster/Nature's Ally spells but with the lists replaced by Pokemon now, and a Tome Summoner ACF that has those...

Anyway, I absolutely agree with Koumei about level 1 being stupid and how neither side should be using broken monsters. And yes, 'everyone is Pokemon Trainers' fixes all interparty balance issues, but sometimes some people don't want to be trainers. Anyway, my issues with Frank's Pokemaster are

- CR - 1 is too strong when you have six of these things (even one at a time)

- The Double Team mechanic makes you think about what Pokemon you want at CR - 1 and what Pokemon you want to double team and deliberately not train some to max, which feels weird

- Pokemon are sapient creatures (well Pokemon Pokemon are, D&D Pokemon sometimes aren't) and them not listening to you when you're trying to save the world or something just because another pokemon is out feels weird. A major goal of my rewrite was to make it so you sometimes could have six pokemon out, but usually not want to (because they're kinda weak without the Active Pokemon buffs and go down easily)

- The evolution mechanic is too generous, i.e. go to the store and buy some horses, now you have a bunch of nightmares (this is the explicitly stated example). Goats turn into Rejkars with at will Fabricate. Apes turn into Bar-L-Guras with at will Greater Teleport. I guess you could say 'fuck it, planar binding exists so all of those are being pulled in anway', but my complaint is more about the feel of this than the power, as this feels more like some sort of monster evolutionist class than a Pokemon Trainer. There are things that explicitly pokevolve in canon D&D, but it shouldn't be because of a special power the trainer has. Basically, evolution should be a thing creatures do, not a trainer power, which should just be advancement. Though, thing is you do want an advancement system, and I suppose making it so things become level appropriate while also recognizable as the same thing is hard, though the 'add 9 HD per CR' thing is definitely not the way to go.

- The trainer getting their own actions means they go around UMDing (UMD is not a class skill, but it can become one easily enough in standard 3.5) instead of shouting out orders

Suggestions that change how the monster works for becoming a pet are a dealbreaker for me, e.g. DSM's damage sharing suggestion, Prak's modify the Eidolon thing, and I guess erik's thing about capping the DC feels a bit like that too (admittedly, my rewrite where they get a few numbers bonuses does that too, but that's more like a bard's inspire courage thing). Yes, a lot of these are 'feels' complaint, but like Dean said, genre conventions are an important part of Pokemon.

As an aside, yeah, all base DCs being 10 + 1/2 HD/CR + ability mod is good
Last edited by radthemad4 on Wed Nov 20, 2019 3:00 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Post by Dean »

Pokemasters could be forced to be in the combat area by having to command the pokemon (even if such a thing is a free or swift action) and be relatively nearby for commands to work.

I think it's also reasonable for pokemon to either share hp or to have the expectation be that enemies need only beat 1. Making anyone have to beat 6 consecutive opponents in D&D would take ages so the transition of the pokemaster to D&D likely means the absolute most pokemon throwing they could do is to change out the one currently on the field with a replacement.
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Post by Username17 »

radthemad wrote: CR - 1 is too strong when you have six of these things (even one at a time)
This is very spherical cow. You're second level, what CR 1 monster did you capture at first level that's causing problems?

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Post by radthemad4 »

Levels 1 and 2 are super wonky anyway and I think that CR - 1 is fine for those levels (and is pretty much the only option short of making Pokemaster a PrC). Being able to swap between 6 or so different CR - 1 characters from level 3 onwards is what concerns me.
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Post by Username17 »

radthemad4 wrote:Levels 1 and 2 are super wonky anyway and I think that CR - 1 is fine for those levels (and is pretty much the only option short of making Pokemaster a PrC). Being able to swap between 6 or so different CR - 1 characters from level 3 onwards is what concerns me.
OK... you're 3rd level. You have a couple of CR 1 monsters and a couple of CR 2 monsters in your pocket. Which one(s) is (are) a problem?

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Post by radthemad4 »

It was kind of a gut feeling, and I'm willing to eat crow if I'm wrong, but before I investigate, can you ride an uncontrolled Pokemon?
An uncontrolled Pokémon will act as it sees fit, possibly going on a rampage, running away, or simply sleeping until it is returned to its Pokéball.
e.g. a Dire Bat
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Post by Username17 »

Dire Bats are not Pokémon. Magical Beasts yes, Animals no.

The Pokemaster class gives you no special ability to ride uncontrolled Pokémon. You can buy and train a Hippogriff as a mount with just regular money and time without using a Pokeball. But so can every other character.

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Post by radthemad4 »

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Post by Username17 »

Interesting. Pokemaster is a class written for 3rd edition, and included 'Beasts' but not 'Animals.' In 3.5, the Beast Type was removed and all Beasts were made either Magical Beasts or Animals. I can understand the decision to have someone convert to 3.5 by allowing Animals in order that players can still capture Dinosaurs, but the original intention to disallow normal hunting dogs, horses, and (especially) Dire Bears was sincere.

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