OSSR: ACKS Heroic Fantasy Handbook

[deaddmwalking]

Now normally I'm not one to do this... nah I'm totally the type to engage in a bit of unsportsmanlike gloating.

It isn't appropriate to talk about a specific individual who is no longer permitted to defend himself. Based on the slur he used, and consistent with the guidelines of this site, it was entirely appropriate.

[Omegonthesane]

Now normally I'm not one to do this... nah I'm totally the type to engage in a bit of unsportsmanlike gloating.

It isn't appropriate to talk about a specific individual who is no longer permitted to defend himself. Based on the slur he used, and consistent with the guidelines of this site, it was entirely appropriate.

That rule is for if you've banned someone from a thread, I don't think it really applies to when someone's been banned from the whole site.

See: every person who ever mentions shadzar.

[deaddmwalking]

I don't think it really applies to when someone's been banned from the whole site.

See: every person who ever mentions shadzar.

I don't think it's wrong to mention something like 'so and so said this' or 'remember that time so and so word-vomited all of that crazy shit'. But Lord Mistborn is taking it further - he's directly calling out Sacrificial Lamb knowing that he can't respond here.

Still I'll indulge your post-ban tantrum Sacrifical Lamb. I know that somewhere in your shriveled pestilent heart you crave my flowery textual abuse, you know that it's better than you deserve so enjoy another taste.

I think these things are absolutely worth saying, and it is possible to do it in a way he can respond - on another forum where he isn't banned.

I also think that it's appropriate to dissect his comments and point out what is wrong; just because he isn't here to defend them doesn't mean they should be treated as sacred.

I just think the line needs to be before you heap additional (deserved) ridicule on the person. It's like kicking someone while they're being held down.

[Dean]

I think anything insulting or infuriating to literal nazi's that literally exist right now and are currently attempting to help finance people involved with various wings of the fourth reich is good. And you need to take 70,000 enormous steps out of your own fucking asshole if your message is that someone may be a literal nazi but mocking them is stepping a bit out of forum guidelines and that's a line that shouldn't be crossed.

[MGuy]

I think anything insulting or infuriating to literal nazi's that literally exist right now and are currently attempting to help finance people involved with various wings of the fourth reich is good. And you need to take 70,000 enormous steps out of your own fucking asshole if your message is that someone may be a literal nazi but mocking them is stepping a bit out of forum guidelines and that's a line that shouldn't be crossed.

I probably believe some very terrible things should happen to maybe an orange person or two. However I will respect that Fbmf has rules and I think while we are on his lawn we should respect that rules regardless of how righteous one feels. If fbmf approves then I'm golden. I haven't seen anyone chastised for bringing up shad as long as you can point to things shad said. Sac's posts are still here so I think it's probably alright to still talk about his position since he posted it.

[Mistborn]

It's not like Lamb can't "defend himself" anyone who cares is going to be following both threads and even if they aren't the absolute madman quoted my post in full on the other thread. This isn't a one way stomping, the only thing that has changed is that people on the Den who don't care only have to see my awesome posts instead of having to wade through his regurgitated bullshit as well. So Lamb, you really ought to bow out now. Do not quote this post, you've indulged you public humiliation fetish too much already. If people from theRPGsite care they will read it anyway.

Anyway in that really cringeworthy post Lamb hammered on about me and Frank claiming Milo and/or Macris were personally responsible for those fascist mass shootings that happened. (He then goes on to claim that they were a false flag by the international jewish conspiracy because he has no self awareness at all.) Like I said we don't claim he was personally responsible for anything except working to provide a platform to Milo after he got kicked from Brietbart. That fact alone which is uncontested is enough to secure Macris's damnation. Also Lamb you best start believing in fascist radicalization machines, you're in one.

The only question is how is his spewing of anti-semitic conspiracy theories going to go over on theRPGsite. He has claimed that the Christchurch shooting was a "state sponsored MK ultra false flag" that involved "Israeli Mossad" which is far beyond the usual "oh noes da SJWs" nonsense that is the usual discourse there. That ought to garner some pushback from deadDM if no one else. Of course in actually respectable forums and the Den that sort of nonsense gets you banned on sight.

[GnomeWorks]

Anyway in that really cringeworthy post Lamb hammered on about me and Frank claiming Milo and/or Macris were personally responsible for those fascist mass shootings that happened. ... Like I said we don't claim he was personally responsible for anything

That's... not really how it read.

Turns out that he's a racist shitheel who financed a terrorist network and is personally responsible for the deaths of dozens if not hundreds of people.

Don't know about you, but that really sounds like Frank is saying dude is personally responsible for shit happening.

I find it hard to interpret that statement otherwise.

[Mistborn]

Turns out that he's a racist shitheel who financed a terrorist network and is personally responsible for the deaths of dozens if not hundreds of people.

Don't know about you, but that really sounds like Frank is saying dude is personally responsible for shit happening.

I find it hard to interpret that statement otherwise.

Well that's egg on my face I suppose, let's take it from the top one more time. In a fundamental sense the argument is not that Macris personally gunned down anyone, or specifically told anyone to go and do crimes. The argument is that he helped spread propoganda that radicalized people and then those people went and did some murders, and thus he is at some level responsible for those murders. Like I said there is a specific term for this stochastic terrorism. I'm not particularly interested in arguing such fine degrees of personal responsibility. Macris helped platform Milo at a point when no reasonable person could fail to understand what Milo was about. Therefor I will not give him my money and I will tell others to not give him money as well because giving money to Macris could result in that money funding fascism.

[Username17]

The general rule over here is that we aren't supposed to create threads for the purpose of ridiculing posters on other boards. There used to be things where people would make 'can you believe the dumb crap on this other board?' threads, and it just created a lot of drama. Eventually it had to be stopped, mostly because Roy and PsychicRobot took it way too far.

What this means is that the kinds of 'two minutes hate' thread that Sacrificial Lamb made over there would be against the code of conduct of the Den were he to make it over here. There's obviously asymmetry going on, because clearly theRPGSite has no problem with people making threads whose entire purpose is to drum up support for invasions of other forums. DeadDMWalking is on thin ice having posted links to the hate thread over there and also copypastaed some of the crazy bullshit they were spouting - but they were already talking about us and also organizing a forum invasion of the Den and also this thread was originally actually about something, so it's probably fine.

Obviously talking shit about SacrificialLamb and GnomeWorks right now isn't a problem with the code of conduct, because those assholes did a forum invasion of us without us starting it.

Don't know about you, but that really sounds like Frank is saying dude is personally responsible for shit happening.

• Knock Knock
  Who's there?
  Hired Goons.
  Hired goons? I didn't hire any goons.

Yeeah. You dumb RPGSite assholes seem to have a huge problem with the difference between moral responsibility and physical responsibility. So if you financially supported the Christchurch murders, you have some moral responsibility for those murders. Because you financially supported them and they happened. Obviously people who aren't Brenton Tarrant didn't literally pull triggers while murdering dozens of people in Christchurch, New Zealand, but every person who contributed to Brenton Tarrant's radicalization and/or the physicl and financial infrastructure of his crimes has some amount of moral responsibility for those events. Every person who egged him on online or liked his hate posts has some amount of moral responsibility for that tragedy.

The thing is that there are literally hundreds of these attacks and literally thousands of people have died. And Macris has admitted that he was part of the dark money pipeline that perpetuates this revolting state of affairs. He has some amount of moral responsibility for some amount of these terrorist attacks. And if you want to quibble about which of the literally hundreds of white nationalist terror attacks his dark money ended up propping up, or how many deci-murders his moral responsibility is worth in each one, I'm gonna have to ask you to shut up because I don't actually care. Without the dark money that Macris funneled to the white nationalists, there would have been less white nationalist attacks, and less innocent people would be dead. I couldn't tell you which attacks exactly were the ones where his dark money was the straw that broke the back and ended up with brown people getting shot in the face in real life, and if you wanna get all microscopic about it I'm going to have to ask you to shut up because that shit is gross.

Varg Vikernes killed a man with a knife and burned some churches down and made a blog about how much he hated black people and Jews. What Macris did isn't morally superior to that. Considering how high profile the dark money targets were, he's actually connected to a lot more murderers than Varg ever was. Now obviously I'm more afraid of Varg in a dark alley, because he will literally kill me with a knife, but that doesn't mean the moral stain on his soul is worse in any absolute way.

But congratulations on being able to hold it together to stick to the script and be 'just asking questions' instead of going the whole Sacrificial Lamb thing and ranting off about Jewish plots to use MKUltra to encourage race mixing or whatever he was talking about.

-Username17

[fbmf]

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
Going forward please refrain from posting links to/quoting from any threads on other forums (especially RPGSite) even vaguely related to this issue.
[/The Great Fence Builder Speaks]

[GnomeWorks]

Obviously talking shit about SacrificialLamb and GnomeWorks right now isn't a problem with the code of conduct, because those assholes did a forum invasion of us without us starting it.

As if you've ever needed permission to shit on people. Nearly every interaction I've had with you here, Frank, has been caustic from your end. I don't know if it's because your job of "saving babies" makes you short and curt with folk online, but since I've been here, I can't recall a single time I've enjoyed trying to engage you in discussion. I've long since stopped bothering.

That others have seen fit to shit on me has gradually led to me fading to the background, because - even still - I am interested in your analysis of things, though even that has worn thin with the constant injection of politics into seemingly everything. Whether or not I disagree isn't relevant: I'm not here for politics, and I'm not interested in political discussion.

So no, it's not a forum invasion (or, if there is such a thing, I'm not part of it). I don't know what Sacrificial Lamb was thinking, but honestly he's an idiot and I'm not sure what he was trying to accomplish, because it's pretty clear that (1) he has never understood the Den, and (2) his ideas are trash. I've said as much both here and over at theRPGsite.

You dumb RPGSite assholes seem to have a huge problem with the difference between moral responsibility and physical responsibility.

If you honestly meant "moral responsibility," then fair enough. I think that a phrase like "moral culpability" would have worked better in your initial post, specifically because your original wording could be open to misinterpretation.

Of course I'm not really sure why I'm bothering. I'm sure you'll find some way to spray acid in my face.

[Username17]

That others have seen fit to shit on me has gradually led to me fading to the background, because - even still - I am interested in your analysis of things, though even that has worn thin with the constant injection of politics into seemingly everything. Whether or not I disagree isn't relevant: I'm not here for politics, and I'm not interested in political discussion.

Your concern trolling is noted and discounted. But let me tell you why.

First of all, we're talking about funneling dark money to white nationalist terrorist networks. How is that 'political?' I don't consider supporting mass murder sprees through 8Chan to be a valid political position, and we haven't been discussing it in political terms. If you think that financially supporting white nationalist terror cells is a valid political position that should be respected and set aside during polite discussions, that's... certainly a viewpoint. I don't think you'll find a lot of takers here. Or most places.

Macris votes for Republicans, but the first time I've mentioned it is right now. I haven't been discussing that aspect of his poor character because it isn't germane. The only time any part of that was mentioned in any part of this thread was when LordMistborn made fun of him for having attempted to defend himself from accusations of supporting racists by name checking a specific Republican politician... who had specifically gotten in trouble for having provided support to a bunch of racists. Like, he honestly could have chosen any politician to try to hide behind, or no politician at all, but he happened to choose the guy with the white supremacist newsletter scandal.

But really you're telling on yourself by the battles you pick. Macris' own timeline makes him a moral monster, and his defenses of his behavior are somewhere between "laughably weak" and "dog whistles aimed at virtue signaling to white supremacists." It's very weird that you would look at that dumpster fire and decide to parachute in to "Well actually..." and nitpick whether some sentence of mine was worded too strongly or not. This guy is defending his choice of organizing a media event where they drove a black actress off of twitter by spamming her with pictures of gorillas and graphic rape threats and your response to that is to chin stroke about how you think maybe Doctor Frank Trollman is being too mean to him? What the actual hell?

So go ahead... tell me: what's the part of this thread where we made things "too political?" What's the thing we were supposed to live and let live and be non-confrontational about? What's the thing we did where we deserve condemnation and not the white supremacy guys?

-Username17

[Mistborn]

That others have seen fit to shit on me has gradually led to me fading to the background, because - even still - I am interested in your analysis of things, though even that has worn thin with the constant injection of politics into seemingly everything. Whether or not I disagree isn't relevant: I'm not here for politics, and I'm not interested in political discussion.

It's not to late too rehabilitate yourself, you haven't gone full shitmuffin yet. If you post content that's not as terribly cirngewothy as your current sad display it's possible to live your behavior now. The community by and large forgives given time and change of behavior. If you stop posting cringe people will stop ragging on your for posting cringe.

Now please allow me to explain why you are wrong, just this one I won't even cuss or call you names. What you consider "politics" creeping in to Franks reviews is simply an acknowledgement that standards have changed. When Frank does OSSR or what ever the question is "how does the book hold up today"? That includes both mechanics but also content that was considered acceptable in the 70's, 80's, and to a lesser degree to the 90's that is not acceptable now. To throw a hissy fit about Frank pointing that sort of thing out is tantamount to objecting to that change of standards having taken place. (Which is a big yikes mah dude.)

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

It's really hard to take somebody seriously when they say "big yikes".

[Mask_De_H]

It's really hard to take somebody seriously when they say "big yikes".

That's just the vernacular nowadays.

Also jesus fuck what happened to this thread? You don't normally see /pol/ meltdowns this bad outside of /tg/. Not even (most of) 4chan even uses the term Lamb got got for.

[shinimasu]

From what I can tell linking to the macris boards tipped off a bunch of the denizens there that people were talking shit about them. And they decided to come say hi.

Unless he's just got an alert on his name like shitmuffin does, in which case he will need a similarly snazzy pseudonym.

[Grek]

It's really hard to take somebody seriously when they say "big yikes".

Your input has been noted, and when I wish to not have a post taken seriously, it will have the biggest yikes in it. Small oofs though, can't have that yeeted into my life.

[GnomeWorks]

But really you're telling on yourself by the battles you pick.

Why, because I pointed out that something you said could be interpreted in a way that almost assuredly wasn't true?

If you hadn't used as vague a phrase as you did, which I know you know could be interpreted multiple ways, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

If dude is an asshole, there's evidence. You don't need to editorialize it, just put it out there. Let people come to their own conclusions. If it's as damning as it apparently is, I'm sure the point you want to make will be heard.

you think maybe Doctor Frank Trollman is being too mean

Honestly? Yes. You're an asshole, Frank. You're often correct in your complex systemic analyses and you're a rather intelligent person, but fucking hell do you come across as a shit human being. Maybe you're better in person, but on the internet? Fuck, man.

And no, I didn't decide to "parachute in" because you were being an asshole. It's part of your online persona, at the very least, so that's not surprising, and absolutely nothing to write home about. I just pointed out that your choice of wording was ambiguous, at best... and here we are, with you accusing me of "invading."

Not that you'd ever admit to overreacting, of course. I fully expect you to double down in short order. I've never seen you back down or admit you were wrong, and I don't expect to see it today, least of all on my account.

So go ahead... tell me: what's the part of this thread where we made things "too political?" What's the thing we were supposed to live and let live and be non-confrontational about? What's the thing we did where we deserve condemnation and not the white supremacy guys?

You apparently missed the context of me pointing out that I didn't care for the politicization, which was to indicate why I haven't been posting as often and why I was not "invading" from another forum.

I don't give a shit about the politics. I don't. I'm not making any claims about when you should or should not have gone there, nor am I "condemning" you for including that kind of crap. I personally don't care for it, which is why I typically don't participate in that kind of thread. If you want to bring up the political angles, feel free. I don't like it, but I don't expect posts to kowtow to my preferences.

It's just about the phrasing. That's all. Keep reading into that, if you like.

It's not to late too rehabilitate yourself, you haven't gone full shitmuffin yet.

I don't give a single solitary flying fuck about you or your fucking opinion.

Seriously, you can take your "rehabilitation" nonsense, and shove it far, far up your ass.

[Mistborn]

Gnome I have done you the favor of extending the the olive branch of peace, only for you to respond to my my gesture of reconciliation with such brazen personal attacks. Yet still I will use soft words with only a touch of ironic affectation and endeavor to talk you down before you yeet away all remaining good will.

So I'll say it again, you do yourself little favor by railing against "politicization" in the abstract. The fact you are so unwilling to give details will lead your interlocutors to draw highly uncharitable conclusions. If you can find an objection to the political content of Franks posts that don't out you as having unwholesome views you are free to do so. However if you can not, then you ought to act as the bigger person and admit you are at fault.

[deaddmwalking]

I just pointed out that your choice of wording was ambiguous, at best... and here we are, with you accusing me of "invading."

Different cultures and all that, but nobody here misunderstood Frank's post. Sacrificial Lamb's worldview is absolutely bonkers and frightening in so many ways - I would not base my reaction on his reading comprehension.

You don't have to agree with Frank's post. He's making an equivalence that you can disagree with. As far as we know, Osama bin Laden didn't pull the trigger against anyone; he didn't pilot the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center or the Pentagon - but he was still enemy numero uno as far as the United States is concerned. Moral culpability can be harder to assign in discrete units.

Here's an article responding to Milo Yiannopolos comment saying, and I quote, "I can’t wait for the vigilante squads to start gunning journalists down on sight". You and I can quibble about which mass shooters were directly inspired by comments like this; or whether some other individuals have more or less moral responsibility for encouraging these actions, but a claim that Milo has nothing to do with this type of violence would be laughable if it wasn't so depressing. Funding Milo and providing a platform for him to spew his hateful rhetoric is a morally reprehensible act. In the other thread, Macris basically says, 'I hoped to use Milo for my own ends, but it didn't work out because he's a shitheel'. It's quite possible that his own ends were ALSO deplorable but even if they were SAINTLY, it's entirely justified for some reasonable people to conclude that it was dangerously irresponsible at best and quite possibly outright evil.

You're not required to agree or disagree, and despite the tone policing, the accusation, even if framed in the most incendiary way possible is worth discussion. Which is exactly what happened here.

[GnomeWorks]

So I'll say it again, you do yourself little favor by railing against "politicization" in the abstract.

It's fucking aggravating, is what it is.

EN World is a shithole, has been for years.

TBP is a shithole, has been for years.

theRPGsite is less of a shithole, but is full of right-wing politics, which is aggravating, because I don't want politics in my gaming discussion.

The Den is less of a shithole, but is full of left-wing politics, which is aggravating, because I don't want politics in my gaming discussion.

The less said about reddit, the better.

Why is the automatic assumption that, because I want to talk about my godsdamn elf games without bringing politics into it, I must have $OPPOSING_VIEW? There are plenty of places on the internet for talking about politics. It's all anybody talks about anymore, and it's completely just fucking everything up.

Is it so godsdamn much to want to not have to deal with it somewhere? We're talking about elf games. Why do we have to keep bringing up politics? Fuck.

I'm generally not interested in antagonizing people over their politics. My current best friend and I disagree on politics in pretty much every way imaginable, and yet we still manage to hang out and not be at each others' throats (though neither of us votes, but for different reasons, so... perhaps not so different after all).

Part of why I said that Frank's statement that I quoted earlier could be misinterpreted is because, from where I'm sitting, it looked like the cornerstone of this whole shitstorm. A little more clarity, and half of this shit probably wouldn't even have happened.

Yet here we are.

Different cultures and all that, but nobody here misunderstood Frank's post.

One of my undergrad degrees is in philosophy. Part of that is ripping words and statements to shreds and trying to discern the actual meaning.

Frank's statement was unclear to me in its intended meaning. Honestly, if he had said "the intended meaning was in reference to moral responsibility," I would have said, "ah," and that would have been the end of it. Instead I got a whole fucking rant about how I'm "invading" the place and a goon sent from the other forum.

Sacrificial Lamb's worldview is absolutely bonkers and frightening in so many ways - I would not base my reaction on his reading comprehension.

Sacrificial Lamb is a fucking idiot. And I don't mean that just politically.

Milo Yiannopolos

I'll be honest, I'm only vaguely familiar with the guy and what he's said, because he struck me as an enormous jackass not worth listening to, so I mostly ignored his existence.

Which is pretty much my assessment of, and reaction to, the vast majority of people in popular media, but whatever.

You're not required to agree or disagree, and despite the tone policing, the accusation, even if framed in the most incendiary way possible is worth discussion. Which is exactly what happened here.

On a gaming forum, I'd rather talk about gaming, but fine: whatever. As I said, I don't expect posts to follow my preferences, which is why I generally don't get involved.

[Thaluikhain]

Is it so godsdamn much to want to not have to deal with it somewhere?

Yes. Maybe it'd be nicer if we could avoid it, but it's everywhere because it matters. Saying "I don't care about politics" is the same as saying "I don't care about other people's problems" and there's a problem there.

But, get rid of the Nazis, get rid of all the white supremacists and the homophobes and the like and we'd not have this problem. They are the cause, and until they aren't bringing their politics into gaming you will have politics in gaming.

[nockermensch]

theRPGsite is less of a shithole, but is full of right-wing politics, which is aggravating, because I don't want politics in my gaming discussion.

The Den is less of a shithole, but is full of left-wing politics, which is aggravating, because I don't want politics in my gaming discussion.

Sorry, you don't get to live in this hellish timeline and ignore politics in ANY discussion.

[SeekritLurker]

In a world where orcposting exists, the idea that elfgames can be without politics is the real fantasy.

[MGuy]

Everything is politics. It's unavoidable. Choosing not to participate, demanding that others not, is a political stance.