TAM Theory

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TAM Theory

Post by Foxwarrior »

Because it's not an RPG forum if nobody expounds on bizarre classification systems every once in a while, I'm forging a new way of dividing up the elements of an RPG: Tactics, Antics, and Melodrama are the three good things about tabletop RPGs.

Tactics is about thinking about the scenario and coming up with a plan to resolve it in your favor. It depends on being able to have a clear idea of what's going on, and on what sorts of things would happen in response to your possible actions, by having a DM who explains the environment in a helpful way, and rules that actually dictate what's going on. Tactics includes things like: fighting a battle according to minis combat rules; building a flying machine using skeletons and immovable rods; figuring out how to steal a tank driving down the highway; short circuiting an adventure path weeks in advance by using contact other plane to google the future; and so on. Pathfinder 2 has the trappings of a Tactics RPG, with the many layers of rules for all sorts of things, but then it has the DM secretly make up DCs for a lot of skills, so the elaborate skill rules can't actually be used to form plans in any grand sense and only the basic tactical combat is really left.

Antics is about tactics going terribly, terribly, wrong when the players actually try to put them into action. Usually, the RPG stories that are exciting enough to actually tell contain some amount of Antics to them. It depends on hidden information, in the form of things the DM hasn't told the players, and in the form of unknowable things like the results of die rolls that haven't been rolled yet. The way that RPGs often have an aversion to auto-success even on things that really should be super easy for such a badass character seems to me like the designers realizing at the last minute that their game doesn't have enough Antics and trying to squeeze some in via comedy of errors at the last minute. Better antics come from more rube goldberg-esque hidden information than just a bad roll or two though, unless your bad roll does something really interesting somehow.

Melodrama is all the fluffy roleplaying stuff, like talking in a silly voice, thinking about how cool your character's whole aesthetic and powerset is, making your character do things that aren't actually good ideas because "they're what my guy would do"/"yeah, but my guy doesn't know that". If a game has too much Tactics and not enough Antics, any player can choose to help even the scales a bit by making a poor decision that gets the party in trouble. Yes, I did lump in most character-building people with the "roleplayers" :tongue:.

There are many things people put into RPGs that don't really help increase any of these three good things. Tiny fiddly bonuses don't add much to the tactics and actively take time away from the antics and melodrama. Skill webs and other elaborate schemes to slightly increase realism at the expense of any form of balance are basically aiming to increase tactics while they actively serve to gut the depth of the tactical elements. Elaborate systems for character creation are fine, but only so long as careful reading of the rules allows you to discover new and interesting combos that you can then smile about melodramatically.

A fixation on not deviating from "the story" and letting each encounter happen when it's "supposed" to does allow players to achieve some tactics (in the form of presumably polished tactical combats, but not the more bizarre large scale logistical stuff), some antics (in the form of moderately botched negotiations, bumping into traps, fumbling about in combat), and plenty of melodrama (you don't have much control over what happens, but you still get to choose how your characters act when it does, and the combats give you freedom to show off how great it is to grapple people with dual-wielded scythes or whatever). According to TAM theory, all the core pillars being satisfied is why people like that stuff even though they could be reaching much greater heights of wackiness in terms of Tactics and Antics if given more freedom.

I think I might have rambled a bit there, oh well.
Last edited by Foxwarrior on Thu Aug 15, 2019 6:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Great, was looking for a thread like this. Tactics, Antics, Melodrama...

French sociologist Callois talks about elements similar to them in his book:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man,_Play_and_Games

I found out about this 'cause Hirokazu Yasuhara (Sonic the Hedgehog designer) brings him up oftne in game design talks. They have 4 elements which are...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-3avMB ... e&t=13m21s


Competition- Similar to your tactics, it's not just vs another player, but having gameplay to master
Simulation/mimickry- Similar to your Melodrama, it's the role play elements, the aesthetics, what connects you the player to the game (familiar or evocative imagery)
Chance- Similar to your Antics, it's knowing you don't know, it's unexpected results
Veritgo- Similar to your Antics, it's the changes in emotion in the game, disorientation


Yasuhara uses as an example "You have to design a more fun slide for a playgorund, so..."

Competition: You put two slides next to each other, you can now 'compete' against another person
Chance- You have water squirters that fire randomly so you don't know if you'll get squirted as you slide down
Simulation- Instead of just being a slide, you make the slide Elephant or Dinosaur shaped
Vertigo- You vary the slide so it goes up and down, your speed changes and that gives you a literal sense of vertigo

To use your terminology, Yasuhara said Mario was a very sound "Tactical" game, you see where Mario Jumps, you calculate your jumps.
So for making Sonic he added more "Antics", the level design has way more branching paths and you have springs, loops, and so on that rocket Sonic forward without the player knowing where they'll end up.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Fri Aug 16, 2019 5:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mord »

I think there's a very big gulf between two of the classes of activities you're lumping under "Tactics." The guy who shows up to D&D expecting to play a skirmish wargame wants to optimize his Fireball blast radius coverage and get the most bang out of his action economy buck. He is categorically not the guy who shows up looking to "take a third option" by burning down the inn the bad guys are staying in or pouring bleach in the Aboleth's pool or whatever. You could convince me that the first guy is better served playing Descent, or Gloomhaven if he's a German, but the first guy still exists and is probably annoyed by the second guy.

If I were using natural language, I would describe lot of that "avert the plot" stuff like "Googling the future" or "bleaching the Aboleth" as "antics." It seems to me that various actions intended to affect the game world while operating outside the mainstream combat functions, all the way from stunting to Tippyverse stuff, occupy a more similar player headspace than the stuff you're currently assigning the name "Tactics."
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Post by Foxwarrior »

I was originally going to put those types of things into antics, but then right before writing up this post I was reading the Pathfinder 2 skill section, and I realized that the ways it was gut punching me with rules that seem to have meaning but then terminate in "the DM makes up a DC based on how he feels that very moment about you having a chance at succeeding at the task and doesn't tell you what it is" would actually work exactly as well for gut punching someone who read such things in the combat chapter.

So in a sense sort of the point of this definition of Tactics is to get people who are used to the minis combat to see that burning down the tavern with the bad guys in it isn't so different after all.
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Post by Foxwarrior »

That said, googling the future isn't pure tactics even in a game like 3.5e that clearly states what kind of useful answer the DM is supposed to give, because which word the DM thinks would be most informative is hidden information, as is what the DM improvises in response to you short circuiting the adventure.

But then, fights can be pretty arbitrary depending on how much the DM feels like focus firing the fighter today too, so...
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Mord wrote:I think there's a very big gulf between two of the classes of activities you're lumping under "Tactics." The guy who shows up to D&D expecting to play a skirmish wargame wants to optimize his Fireball blast radius coverage and get the most bang out of his action economy buck. He is categorically not the guy who shows up looking to "take a third option" by burning down the inn the bad guys are staying in or pouring bleach in the Aboleth's pool or whatever. You could convince me that the first guy is better served playing Descent, or Gloomhaven if he's a German, but the first guy still exists and is probably annoyed by the second guy.

If I were using natural language, I would describe lot of that "avert the plot" stuff like "Googling the future" or "bleaching the Aboleth" as "antics." It seems to me that various actions intended to affect the game world while operating outside the mainstream combat functions, all the way from stunting to Tippyverse stuff, occupy a more similar player headspace than the stuff you're currently assigning the name "Tactics."
Someone who burns down the inn to cut the Gordian Knot and not for a laugh is totally Tactics. I have burned down many inns to skip/sequence break MC plots in search of the best way through a problem.

Tactics is optimization, both in the combat minigame and in the game as a whole. I would expand Melodrama to include flavor, not just for ROLEplayers, but for anything that would be considered evocative. Antics is about amusement, either through the game or the play.
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Post by pragma »

In video game circles it's popular to cite Marc LeBlanc's eight types of fun, which I have annotated below with their TAM mapping:

Sensation: Game as sense-pleasure. ... (Mask's Melodrama expansion)
Fantasy: Game as make-believe. ... (Melodrama/Antics)
Narrative: Game as drama. ... (Melodrama)
Challenge: Game as obstacle course. ... (Tactics)
Fellowship: Game as social framework. ... (Does not fit in TAM, Antics maybe)
Discovery: Game as uncharted territory. ... (Mask's melodrama expansion / Antics)
Expression: Game as self-discovery. ... (Melodrama)
Submission: Game as pastime. (Does not fit in TAM, but it's fun to check out sometimes)

He wrote a fairly cogent paper describing his take on the subject, and it links the ideas of types of fun to the designer knobs of mechanics, design and aesthetics. I like the picture he paints, though being a huge nerd would prefer that we had mapped these types of fun to fMRI pictures or something to prove that we're not just talking out our own butts.
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Post by jt »

I'm skeptical of trying to divide all the elements of RPGs up into these TAM categories. But I don't think trying to do that is actually necessary, it does look like you've found a useful set of goal posts that you can use to make sure you're covering the high points of playing an RPG.

Your "antics" category makes me think of compounding failure states. It's something I've seen done well in several co-op board games - the Battlestar Galactica boardgame, Space Alert, Captain Sonar, and Ghost Stories - and also FTL for a video game example. In all of these games, a simple problem or error can cause additional problems or, better yet, restrict access to solutions for other problems. You can't fix your broken weapons systems because you vented the oxygen to solve your last problem. The fighter can't shield the cleric from arrows because you let a dragon melt his shield, and you can't run away because you snuck past the owlbears in the last room.

Compounding failure states quickly lead to more interesting tactical situations. There's a nice flow there.

I'm not sure if there's as natural of a way to link melodrama into the other elements? But if you're willing to use unnatural ways, the GM can have a little flag they raise when there aren't enough problems to get the antics ball rolling, and whoever comes up with a way to use a character flaw to start the problem train while the flag is up gets some meta currency.

That sets up a game where the players come up with a plan, the GM decides the plan sounds too much like something that'll actually work and raises the drama flag, the players race to propose good ways to start messing it up until the GM decides there are enough problems, then the players try to execute their plan in the face of the problems they've created and the compounding knock-on effects from those.
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Post by Foxwarrior »

Well, the best moment to add melodrama to a game is when the mood strikes you and you think of a really dramatic or amusing thing to say or do, so I don't think introducing it unnaturally too much is a good idea. But I suppose it does help to remind players that melodrama is one of the fun things about RPGs, so there was at least conceptually a point to all those rules about how you should make decisions based on your alignment or have a rudeness score that the DM can remind you about or whatever, and maybe the DM bribing people every once in a while to do something counterproductive would be more fun than those.
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Post by MGuy »

So linking Melodrama to stuff on a whim is the bears thing isn't it? When you add quantum complications to a thing apropos of nothing? I think that's probably not something you want to design around.

Numenera, I think it was, has something more functional I believe with intrusions. I haven't looked at it in years and I think a friend of mine told me it updated at some point, but my memory and some quick googling tells me the GM basically asks permission to add problems to a PC's life and attempts to bribe them with the promise of extra XP for the trouble. It gives a reason both for the GM to want to add drama to a situation and incentive for players to both desire it and allow it to happen while giving them a sense of control. I think that's a fun idea.
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Post by Foxwarrior »

Well, it's hard to keep the DM from interfering with the game. Like, even the DM deciding to run an adventure where you go into the forest to hunt elves but also there are bears in the forest that you might draw the attention of if you're too loud is a lot of DM whimsy which you could only remove by requiring the DM to run only modules from the book... Modules which indicate everything that lives in any place the players might interact with. Something like Dungeon World or Lasers and Feelings sabotages any potential for tactics by making the DM put in a bunch of effort to make something up after every action, but that doesn't mean it's practical to have the DM try to bribe the players with metagame currency whenever they complicate the players' lives with a quest.

That said, maybe some rules or guidelines (or even bribes if you like) for how often a challenge should be spiced up with unexpected complications halfway through wouldn't be amiss. Perhaps it is a bit strange that with some DMs the Johnson never betrays you but with others the Johnson often does.
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Post by MGuy »

My goal wouldn't be to keep the GM from making choices or from 'interfering with the game'. This is about adding challenges to an ongoing game/adventure/encounter or at least that's what I thought was being talked about. At least that's the meaning I got out of getting out of the idea of things being made counterproductive by the GM. I think a system of bribes is good but I think that the bribe should be codified. I believe this is about game design and when we're talking about designing we're talking about actual rules right?

If we are writing rules for introducing counter productive elements to an ongoing game I think that a system that offers rewards for accepting those elements wouldn't be impractical. I am assuming that these elements are a goal themselves. If you make a rule that offers rewards for engaging in these, the players will probably do so to chase those rewards, and so content has to be made then to facilitate this need. If this happens then that would be the system working as intended. A GM can do it on their own of course. Any time they desire in fact but 'we' the designers, can't design for 'that'. We can make rules that promote certain play styles and discourage others.

I think I'd like to have more instances of melodrama and sudden spikes in tension in my games. I also am coming to value coaxing players to make inputs into the ongoing game as well. I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it in one of these threads but I like when players get really engaged in what's going on to the point where there are lengthy arguments about how they are going to approach an obstacle, the morality of their actions, etc. I think that I would then want to get players involved in helping to generate content. Maybe it comes in the form of deciding 'oh yea the boss probably has reinforcements we have to deal with (and in promoting this we get an XP bonus for being in a tighter spot) but also maybe in the form of "The villain is my brother who saved my life when I was born" (and I get extra XP if I can get the party or certain allies to distrust or turn on me because of this information). I think then the way to keep things 'balanced' for the GM is that these ideas have to be run through or introduced by the GM so that we aren't overrun with 'too' many random ideas the players might come up with and we have a great measure of control in keeping the game flowing as smoothly as we can.
Last edited by MGuy on Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Foxwarrior »

What you're getting at there does have a point, I guess I'm just not excited about the idea of meta currencies because once the players start thinking in terms of how they can game the story to maximize meta currency (like "if I decide that the boss is my long lost brother, I can milk the tension for points but I'm pretty sure we can still beat the boss despite the infighting") the particular melodrama of "every tactical decision I the player make is one that my character also thinks about and makes" stops working so well. And that particular roleplaying aspect is pretty nice in very tactics-heavy games.
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Post by MGuy »

To this concern that people will milk the melodrama of the game I have to ask what is the problem with that? You say it stops working so well but... how? You 'want' these situations to happen. Why does it matter if there are players who only seek to game the system by introducing these conflicts for personal gain? The goal is to make the game more dramatic. Not to do some kind of thing where you make sure everyone's reason for doing so is 'just' to indulge in the act.

You can only design things that support or dissuade people from doing things. When you get out of the space where you're talking about actual rules to just talking about advice. I think then you're not talking in theory but about preference.
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Post by Kaelik »

While in theory it is better if the GM designs the entire facility and their security system for a shadowrun mission in advance, and then the players use their abilities to scout it, and then they plan their mission based on that exploration, and any surprises are things the DM wrote down in advance but they improperly scouted, in practice, you can't possibly know if that's the case and GMs are going to encounter situations where the players think of something they didn't, and suddenly the GM needs to decide how many cars are in the parking lot or what the plumbing system is like, and it's really weird to say that this should result in metagame currency for the PCs when this happens.
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Post by MGuy »

Kaelik wrote:While in theory it is better if the GM designs the entire facility and their security system for a shadowrun mission in advance, and then the players use their abilities to scout it, and then they plan their mission based on that exploration, and any surprises are things the DM wrote down in advance but they improperly scouted, in practice, you can't possibly know if that's the case and GMs are going to encounter situations where the players think of something they didn't, and suddenly the GM needs to decide how many cars are in the parking lot or what the plumbing system is like, and it's really weird to say that this should result in metagame currency for the PCs when this happens.
Well luckily I didn't say anything like that. That's a relief.
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