Are you really nostalgic for 3.5, or just for PHB Wizards?

[Kaelik]

Could you link me that? It'd be useful for the work I'm doing.

http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51175& ... sc&start=0

[Chamomile]

I don't have the motivation or a stapler, otherwise...

brb buying stapler

Really, though, a marketing campaign capable of reaching all the disaffected fans is the missing ingredient. You can trot out your 3.875 edition, but no matter how good it is, you'll need a whole lot of glamour to get people to take it seriously.

[RobbyPants]

I can say this thread, and the one Kaelik linked, are making me super nostalgic for 3.0. Around 2004, I saw 3.5 as more of a nuisance, and only bought it because that's what all the new splats were.

[tussock]

3.0 has some rubbish things that 3.5 fixes quite well too. Or, rather, slightly post-3.5 splats fix.

Like, the official 3.0 action set is pretty weird, with something that looks much more like late 2nd edition terms everywhere. Having the standard actions all include a move is just silliness, not to mention stuff like Refocusing to get into the next round because Delay didn't do that.

Hmm, what else? Oh, Monks got better but you still won't play them. You can't dip Ranger if you don't like people dipping Ranger? I dunno, they did improve terminology here and there.

Really, could've fixed lots of things in 3.5, if Alter Self had always turned you into a medium or small humanoid, for instance, give that to all the monsters instead of messing with Polymorph. Also the 2nd edition Polymorphs are just better balanced spells, along with quite a few others, fucking Teleport and Scrying stuff, buffs in general. They could've given us a monster set with in-built level-appropriate bonuses of the standard types so playing as monsters worked better. But no, it was basically all Fighter nerfs and monster buffs and even more broken crap for spellcasters. Bla bla bla.

[RobbyPants]

Also the 2nd edition Polymorphs are just better balanced spells

How so? It's been 20 years since I played 2nd edition and games seldom got high enough level to use them.

[Mistborn]

Also the 2nd edition Polymorphs are just better balanced spells

How so? It's been 20 years since I played 2nd edition and games seldom got high enough level to use them.

It's not tussock is just being dumb as usual. In 2e polymorph other randomly kills people due to the system shock rules so you can't use it to buff party members and so it's just another save or die. Polymorph self does't kill you but neither spell specifies exactly how turning into a monster recalculates your stats or what happens to that stats you have that monters don't because 2e is terrible. Like most things in 2e the power of the spell comes down to whether you're blowing the DM, if you are you can totally dumpster dive through the MM and turn into something badass enough to make the fighter feel small in the pants (and with greater ease because 2e Polymorph is limited by size but not by HD)

[Sarandosil]

We are still playing 3.5... so not nostalgic

Precisely. If 3.0 was so super duper, why did you all switched to 3.5 and why did 3.5 last much longer seeing a lot more material?

I never bothered switching to 3.5. I house-ruled in things that my players liked from 3.5 and wanted, this was pretty common at the time from what I remember, people leafed through 3.5 and house ruled in what they liked rather than switch wholesale.

I went from 3.0 to pathfinder directly when everyone I know switched to Pathfinder and I remember complaining a lot about dumb changes pathfinder did to my friends and then discovering I was actually complaining about a 3.5 change

[Username17]

As LordMistborn says, Polymorph does not dominate 2nd edition games for two reasons:

• System Shock rules randomly kill you unless you have a very high Constitution score.
• Monster stat lines are incomplete and the spell cannot be adjudicated consistently.

The first isn't more balanced, it's just kind of terrible. If you aren't a super constitutional dwarf, then every time you get polymorphed by the mage there is a small but significant chance that you will drop dead. And before you ask: it's 2nd edition and we have no fucking idea what constitution scores Monsters have so trying to use those System Shock tests offensively is anyone's fucking guess.

The second issue is that because monsters don't have stat lines or consistently defined abilities, there's no way to know what effect there is of turning into anything in particular. If you transform into a Bugbear, do you get quieter? I don't know. No one knows.

Polymorph in every version of 3.0 and 3.5 is broken beyond redemption because it tells you unambiguously what it does. The 2nd edition version is just as broken, but I have no idea what exactly it does because there's so much missing information in the monster entries.

-Username17

[jt]

I'm nostalgic for the old 3.5 character optimization scene. It scratched a similar itch to Magic deck building or games like Factorio do now, but different in ways I haven't seen replicated since. But it has much relationship to actually playing the game as building card houses has to playing poker, of course.

For the actual game, I feel similarly to Foxwarrior - I'm mad that this is still the best. It really shouldn't be after so many years. But if you look at something like what Frank pointed out where the numbers from jump checks make sense, that's just absent from the rest of the industry somehow.

[Zaranthan]

Polymorph in every version of 3.0 and 3.5 is broken beyond redemption because it tells you unambiguously what it does.

Eh, nitpick: 3.X polymorph isn't broken because it's clearly worded and explained. It's broken because it takes several core assumptions about the combat engine, takes them out back, and buggers them with a curling iron. "Take most of the powers from this monster and staple them onto your own character, replacing nearly all the powers you sacrificed to be a mighty spellcaster. But keep the "mighty spellcaster" power, because tradeoffs are for peasants and fighters."

[Foxwarrior]

So why is there a Tome Polymorph but not a Tome Magic Jar?

[Username17]

Polymorph in every version of 3.0 and 3.5 is broken beyond redemption because it tells you unambiguously what it does.

Eh, nitpick: 3.X polymorph isn't broken because it's clearly worded and explained. It's broken because it takes several core assumptions about the combat engine, takes them out back, and buggers them with a curling iron. "Take most of the powers from this monster and staple them onto your own character, replacing nearly all the powers you sacrificed to be a mighty spellcaster. But keep the "mighty spellcaster" power, because tradeoffs are for peasants and fighters."

This is bluntly not the case. Polymorph has, over the combined lives of 3rd edition, 3.5, and Pathfinder been revamped more or less totally more than a dozen times. And sometimes it's been easy to figure out what it does and sometimes it has been very difficult. But there has always been "killer apps" and there has always been broken uses of it.

But what those broken uses actually are varied wildly. There was a period when Wizards used alter self to turn themselves into Troglodytes. There was a period when Wizards polymorphed the party Fighter into an Angel. There was a period when the Druid used enhance wildshape to turn herself into Shiva a Girallon. Sometimes it made most sense as a self-buff, sometimes it made most sense as an ally buff. Sometimes it was used defensively, sometimes it was used offensively.

The common issue is that there are a lot of monster books and those books have a lot of monsters in them. And those monsters are not made with any particular system or care. So whatever rubric you have to choose what monsters are available and what you replace and what you keep, the simple act of making an unambiguous statement of what the rubric is, people will find a selection somewhere that breaks it in half. By having the effect reference the monster books by any rubric at all, you've essentially made a spell description that is nearly two thousand pages long. The idea that it wouldn't have massive and unfortunate loopholes is basically absurd. Such things would be subject to the law of unintended consequences if they were written by a dedicated team of trade law specialists - and instead large amounts of this were written ad hoc by disinterested nerds with deadlines and wordcount quotas.

-Username17

[OgreBattle]

Which edition are angel fighters good

[deaddmwalking]

By having the effect reference the monster books by any rubric at all, you've essentially made a spell description that is nearly two thousand pages long. The idea that it wouldn't have massive and unfortunate loopholes is basically absurd. Such things would be subject to the law of unintended consequences if they were written by a dedicated team of trade law specialists - and instead large amounts of this were written ad hoc by disinterested nerds with deadlines and wordcount quotas.

-Username17

While I agree that's what happened, I'm not sure that was what necessarily SHOULD have happened.

Knowing that there are a lot of monsters, can you think of a 'broken' combination if:

1) Polymorph was straight replacement
2) The polymorphed character gained (EX) but not (SU) abilities
3) You could polymorph into a monster with HD equal to your CL
4) You could only change size by one category per 4 CL (ie, a M creature could become T at 4th level, but not Diminutive until 8th)
5) When your new form was reduced to 0 HP you resumed your original form with half the hit points you had remaining before transformation (rounded down).

[Lokey]

1) I guess you mean MM block is your character sheet? Pick a bruiser immune to what you're facing sounds pretty good. Getting Wish or something like that would probably be the biggest problem.
2) 3) Are the case SRD. Stuff you want to be probably has a pile of extra hit dice anyway, it's a 3.x problem but not universal, need to book dive for good EX stuff but means you need Shapechange to get a spellbook.
4) There's probably something seriously OP in any size category by now
5) Seems weird, I thought dead was dead (according to SRD at least).

[Whatever]

There's no particularly strong correlation between monster HD and monster abilities (nor is caster level particularly well correlated with player level). Without checking the MM, it's a safe bet that there are monsters which have strong powers/immunities and low HD. I don't know which ones are specifically good under that rubric, but it's obvious that some will be.

Essentially, every clearly defined mechanism for Polymorph lets you rank hundreds, if not thousands, of monsters from strongest to weakest as transformation targets. The exact order depends on which mechanism you have in place, but there will always be monsters that are significantly better choices, and the spell will always be "too good" provided enough unique monsters exist. Which they do.

Also, plenty of total nonsense comes in as (EX) abilities, because there's no reason to expect any kind of discipline there. Can you pump your caster level to 48? Then you can turn into the Tarrasque and get every ability it has except Frightful Presence. You can't ever be reduced to 0 hp at that point, because literally all the damage you take counts as nonlethal.

[deaddmwalking]

There's no particularly strong correlation between monster HD and monster abilities (nor is caster level particularly well correlated with player level). Without checking the MM, it's a safe bet that there are monsters which have strong powers/immunities and low HD. I don't know which ones are specifically good under that rubric, but it's obvious that some will be.

Essentially, every clearly defined mechanism for Polymorph lets you rank hundreds, if not thousands, of monsters from strongest to weakest as transformation targets. The exact order depends on which mechanism you have in place, but there will always be monsters that are significantly better choices, and the spell will always be "too good" provided enough unique monsters exist. Which they do.

Also, plenty of total nonsense comes in as (EX) abilities, because there's no reason to expect any kind of discipline there. Can you pump your caster level to 48? Then you can turn into the Tarrasque and get every ability it has except Frightful Presence. You can't ever be reduced to 0 hp at that point, because literally all the damage you take counts as nonlethal.

There's a strongly positive correlation between HD and CR and it isn't 1:1. An Ogre is 4HD, CR 3; a Frost Giant is 14HD, CR 9.

If you can get your CL to 48, there's so many other broken things that you can do that turning into the Tarrasque doesn't actually make you any more powerful.

The biggest issue is that not every ability is clearly defined as (EX) or (SU). I would assume a Frost Giant's immunity to Cold is (EX), but it doesn't say it is.

[Avoraciopoctules]

While I agree that's what happened, I'm not sure that was what necessarily SHOULD have happened.

Knowing that there are a lot of monsters, can you think of a 'broken' combination if:

1) Polymorph was straight replacement
2) The polymorphed character gained (EX) but not (SU) abilities
3) You could polymorph into a monster with HD equal to your CL
4) You could only change size by one category per 4 CL (ie, a M creature could become T at 4th level, but not Diminutive until 8th)
5) When your new form was reduced to 0 HP you resumed your original form with half the hit points you had remaining before transformation (rounded down).

Regeneration is (EX). You might be able to do some wacky stuff with a giant pile of cloned limbs...

[Username17]

As people have already noted, there's essentially no correlation between abilities bein (EX) or (SU) and them being problematic. There are some monsters that have signature supernatural abilities and there are some creatures that just don't, and there's no power difference between those. Supernatural and Extraordinary are tags that primarily differ in flavor, and excluding monsters that have one or the other from serious consideration is a wholly arbitrary sieve that in no way excludes powerful or problematic monsters.

The second thing to remember is that many monsters are "puzzle monsters" that can only be practically beaten by certain means. And while that's not a huge issue when facing adventurer strike teams that have backup silver daggers and jars of flammable oil and stuff, it's a big deal when used against other members of team monster - because many of those assholes don't have the ability to meaningfully adjust their tactics.

The third thing to remember is that even disregarding puzzle monsters, many monsters are some flavor or another of "closet troll" where they are to one degree or another very difficult if encountered in their ideal tactical circumstances.

So even without invoking obscure monsters that are wildly out of sync with their hit dice or badly under-CRed or whatever, you still have a situation where simply using the spell "as intended" will give you an absolutely ridiculous tactical advantage so long as the opposition is known. The ability to turn into a flying archer or a fire-immune snail as required would be overpowering even if the flying archer and the fire immune snail monsters were in some abstract sense "fair."

But then you have the actual monster books, and players turn into fucking War Trolls and what the actual fuck?

-Username17

[Pixels]

There are a heck of a lot of templates that don't add any HD, but add power. The two Epic templates rise to mind as extreme outliers, but I'm sure you could find a lot more dumpster diving.

There are some creatures that are fine-ish in the wild, but become extraordinarily dangerous if buffed by another party member or by possessing magic items. Hydras get a really stupid number of attacks - literally 1 per HD, double if they can get a friend to strategically chop their heads off before the fight. They scale hilariously with any sort of natural attack buff, an Amulet of Mighty Fists, etc. They also have hefty fast healing, good HP, Combat Reflexes with reach, and a better version of Pounce. Their main drawback is their slow move speed, which can be circumvented with Fly. Nothing will make the fighter feel smaller in the pants.

[Whatever]

There's a strongly positive correlation between HD and CR and it isn't 1:1. An Ogre is 4HD, CR 3; a Frost Giant is 14HD, CR 9.

In the sense that every monster has a positive value for both HD and CR, sure. But there are 1HD pixies that clock in at CR5. And plenty of monsters have CR > HD, instead of the reverse.

[deaddmwalking]

First off, I posted my polymorph suggestion with, like, 30 seconds of thought. I'm not suggesting that they're perfect, but I don't think they're easily abused.

Even using the rules I did suggest, you can't turn into a Hydra when you get the spell. Even though you're Caster Level 7 (it's a 4th level spell) and a Hydra has 5 HD, it's also Huge. You wouldn't be able to turn into a Hydra until 8th level.

Clearly, template shennagians are something that would need to be addressed.

But straight up searching the monster manual, I don't think you break the game. Someone should post a concrete example.

There's a lot of things that don't bother me. Turning into a hydra for 8 minutes and getting all your hit points back may be better than using 2 or 3 Cure Serious Wounds, but it's not strictly better than charm monster.

[Username17]

But straight up searching the monster manual, I don't think you break the game. Someone should post a concrete example.

We already did. Trolls are essentially unbeatable by most of team monster and they only have six hit dice. War Trolls are the slightly bigger version that are essentially just as unbeatable by most of team monster for the double digit level set.

Regeneration is a "you must do X or you lose" ability, which is fine to throw at player characters who can and will adjust tactics in response - but Dire Bears or whatever the fuck do not have options like that and therefore they just lose.

A fourth level spell that gave one of "Flight and a Ranged Attack," "Regeneration," or "Energy Immunity" would be a killer app that would reduce many combats to comical simplicity. A spell that grants any one of those, chosen when cast is essentially the answer to every encounter. It's probably beyond the acceptable power level for a fourth level spell, but it's certainly beyond the acceptable versatility of any spell. We're talking about a spell that has literally hundreds of distinct modes, and many of those modes turn encounters into trivial roflstompings. And not just combat encounters, since the list of modes includes gaining fast flight, burrowing, water breathing, and other mobility powers.

-Username17

[Schleiermacher]

Polymorph needs some sort of rewrite for clarity and usability in any event, because it's an inscrutable mess, but I think the best approach to making it more balanced would be to make it an Alternate Form spell rather than an open-ended shapechanging spell.

As in, when you learn Polymorph, you pick one monster and you can shapechange into that. Then you can add higher-level Polymorph spells to let people polymorph into higher-level monsters as they level up, and the basic rules for switching out known spells can take care of the scaling.

That seems to curtail the dumpster diving issue and still cover most kinds of fictional mages - the ones that can shapeshift usually have a signature shape, not an open-ended ability to become anything.

(E.g Soletaken in the Malazan books all work this way, Maleficient turns into a dragon, Jafar becomes a giant snake, Belgarath turns into a wolf etc.)

Exceptions do exist, so if you really want to preserve the Shapeshifter Duel as a thing that might reasonably happen, you could keep Shapechange on the books - 9th level spells are sufficiently crazy anyway that if you rewrote it to prevent the most egregious abuses it probably doesn't break anything that's not already broken.

[Omegonthesane]

How strongly is Regeneration a "have the weak point or lose" ability?

'cause I swear the party just beat the troll warmage into negatives and kept beating it to keep it in negatives while their followers prepared a fire pit in my campaign.

Anyway back in Tome one option for pollymorph given was that each Thingy Form that magic lets you turn into is its own spell with its own effect that wasn't simply to replace you with a MM entry.

Is that a direction worth pursuing still, or does it hit the calssplosion problem