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Whipstitch
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Post by Whipstitch »

Dogbert wrote:Except the game is supposed to be Cyberpunk, not Romantic Fantasy. Even in "Post-Cyberpunk" the best you can do is pushing The Man back and looking cool doing it, but you're not supposed to topple him, ever. Furthermore, Cyberpunk's genre conventions dictate that being a do-gooder only gets you betrayed then evicted then killed, and players don't want to take the Idiot Ball of their own volition as a general thing.
This is moronic. Cyberpunk has never, ever, ever been about stasis or even futility. Cyberpunk has always been about acknowledging that sometimes shit happens without our permission or even awareness. It is fatalistic only in the sense that there is no assurance that the future hurtling towards us wil still have a place for you when it arrives. And, importantly, this also applies to the people who think they are in charge! Cyberpunk is like Space Invaders. The future just keeps coming faster and faster and then someday people can't keep up and they die.

Or, to put it another way: it is fine for the good guys to go out on their shields but the notion that Shadowrun will forever be the 1980s is a betrayal of the "Always 60 years into the future conceit." It is entirely desirable that occasionally the corps as we know them get devoured by their own young.
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Post by Dogbert »

Whipstitch wrote:This is moronic. Cyberpunk has never, ever, ever been about stasis or even futility.
Quick literature lesson for the illiterari among us who probably think that adding cogs to something automatically makes it "steampunk" or that Star Wars is science fiction:

Cyberpunk is the offspring of science fiction and noir. See, there was this guy called William Gibson who wanted to write a book about future dystopias and computers. As with any book, it took him a while, and halfway through he went to the movies and them came out crying because Ridley Scott already said in that movie nearly everything he wanted to say...but in the end the movie enriched him and made his book even better, and today we still acknowledge Neuromancer as the first cyberpunk.

Spoilers: The name of that movie was Bladerunner. When the press asked Scott to define his movie genre-wise, he called it "future noir."Again, for the illiterati among us: Noir is a genre starred by helpless chumps trapped in worlds they didn't make and constant victims of circumstances. Noir worlds are dog-eat-dog worlds where no one is innocent, everything has a price, and everyone has a price (do not, and I repeat, DO NOT mistake with Hardboiled, which comprises similar settings, but is starred by badasses like Humprey Bogart with considerably more agency).

Transhumanism and fixation with IT apart, every genre that ends in -punk is features the same basic themes:

Societal transformation by means of introduced disruptive agent

This is the basic building block of science fiction. Hugo Gernsback stated that, for a work to be considered science fiction, the author must know science, and they must be able to extrapolate as to how a specific breakthrough would change society.

Needless to say, in -punk works, society always changes for the worst.

Social inequality

There are two types of people in this setting: The haves and the have nots. Those who have it (call it bionics, call it steam robots, call it gene mods, etc) have it all, those who don't, have nothing, they live as destitutes and social detritus, and usually eke out a living working for the haves and making them even richer. In -punk works, megacorps tend to have a stranglehold of the IT in question, if not the monopoly (not always, though).

Nihilism

Life if meaningless and dirt cheap, everyone will sell you out for peanuts, and nice guys don't finish last because they don't finish at all, period, they get betrayed then killed. Everybody knows the dice are loaded, everybody knows the race is rigged, the poor get poorer and the rich get richer, that's how it goes. Also, in addition to the inherent nihilism, Cyberpunk also features generous amounts of cold-blooded brutality.

And of course, after cyberpunk became a thing, eventually other authors started writing works in similar settings, but instead made their stories about badasses in black trench coats that stuck it to The Man whenever possible, and these works were called "post-cyberpunk." And after that other authors started re-creating the premise in the victorian period (steampunk), the renaissance (clockworkpunk), fantasy worlds (dungeonpunk), etc etc etc.

You're welcome.
Last edited by Dogbert on Fri May 03, 2019 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Korwin »

@Dogbert, Do you Play Vampire (if you do / or would) as Superhero RPG or as Emo RPG?
Red_Rob wrote: I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mayans had a prophecy about what would happen if Frank and PL ever agreed on something. PL will argue with Frank that the sky is blue or grass is green, so when they both separately piss on your idea that is definitely something to think about.
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Dogbert wrote:Quick literature lesson for the illiterari among us who probably think that adding cogs to something automatically makes it "steampunk" or that Star Wars is science fiction:
Getting a bit off-topic, but I might argue that once there's enough people creating and consuming a genre who've got the definitions consistently wrong, they stop being wrong, and we just have to accept that the language has evolved. Using language "incorrectly" used to really annoy me, nowdays I could care yes.

I don't know if we've reached that point yet, though. I suspect we have with "science fiction", steampunk still has a little while to go and cyberpunk is even more niche.
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Post by Longes »

I don't think Cyberpunk is or ever was about nihilism. Much like with Lovecraft, that's a severe flanderisation. The Sprawl Trilogy and Snow Crash, being the biggest examples of the genre, all end with happy endings and/or hope for the change.

And for the record, here's Gibson talking about Neuromancer in an interview:
INTERVIEWER

There’s a famous story about your being unable to sit through Blade Runner while writing Neuromancer.

GIBSON

I was afraid to watch Blade Runner in the theater because I was afraid the movie would be better than what I myself had been able to imagine. In a way, I was right to be afraid, because even the first few minutes were better. Later, I noticed that it was a total box-office flop, in first theatrical release. That worried me, too. I thought, Uh-oh. He got it right and ­nobody cares! Over a few years, though, I started to see that in some weird way it was the most influential film of my lifetime, up to that point. It affected the way people dressed, it affected the way people decorated nightclubs. Architects started building office buildings that you could tell they had seen in Blade Runner. It had had an astonishingly broad aesthetic impact on the world.

I met Ridley Scott years later, maybe a decade or more after Blade Runner was released. I told him what Neuromancer was made of, and he had basically the same list of ingredients for Blade Runner. One of the most powerful ingredients was French adult comic books and their particular brand of Orientalia—the sort of thing that Heavy Metal magazine began translating in the United States.

But the simplest and most radical thing that Ridley Scott did in Blade Runner was to put urban archaeology in every frame. It hadn’t been obvious to mainstream American science fiction that cities are like compost heaps—just layers and layers of stuff. In cities, the past and the present and the future can all be totally adjacent. In Europe, that’s just life—it’s not science fiction, it’s not fantasy. But in American science fiction, the city in the future was always brand-new, every square inch of it.

INTERVIEWER

Cities seem very important to you.

GIBSON

Cities look to me to be our most characteristic technology. We didn’t really get interesting as a species until we became able to do cities—that’s when it all got really diverse, because you can’t do cities without a substrate of other technologies. There’s a mathematics to it—a city can’t get over a certain size unless you can grow, gather, and store a certain amount of food in the vicinity. Then you can’t get any bigger unless you understand how to do sewage. If you don’t have efficient sewage technology the city gets to a certain size and everybody gets cholera.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Snow Crash takes the piss out of cyberpunk, at least partially. Neal Stephenson would make a habit of dunking on the literary equivalent of Pink Mohawks in his sci-fi.
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Post by Username17 »

Dogbert wrote:and today we still acknowledge Neuromancer as the first cyberpunk.
Lol Wat. Is this some kind of Dadaist statement on the nature of time travel?

The story "Cyberpunk" by Bethke came out in 1980. Neuromancer came out in 1984 into an already established mini-genre. Neuromancer is the most influential piece of Cyberpunk literature, but it is certainly and definitionally not the first.

Everything else you said about the criteria that make things Cyberpunk or not are also stupid and wrong, but the fact that people had already decided on a name for the genre four fucking years before Neuromancer and you declared it to be the first is just the fall-out-of-the-chair stupid part of your rant.

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Post by SlyJohnny »

Dogbert wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Next leveling the cyberpunk dystopia and asking "What do we do about it?" is basically what Shadowrun needed to do at some point if it were to ever "grow up."
Except the game is supposed to be Cyberpunk, not Romantic Fantasy. Even in "Post-Cyberpunk" the best you can do is pushing The Man back and looking cool doing it, but you're not supposed to topple him, ever. Furthermore, Cyberpunk's genre conventions dictate that being a do-gooder only gets you betrayed then evicted then killed, and players don't want to take the Idiot Ball of their own volition as a general thing.
Exactly. What's the point of the setting if shadowrunners can all just apply for a SIN and get regular jobs, and nobody hires deniable mercenaries because there's no reason to not just use your own troops?
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Post by Omegonthesane »

SlyJohnny wrote:
Dogbert wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Next leveling the cyberpunk dystopia and asking "What do we do about it?" is basically what Shadowrun needed to do at some point if it were to ever "grow up."
Except the game is supposed to be Cyberpunk, not Romantic Fantasy. Even in "Post-Cyberpunk" the best you can do is pushing The Man back and looking cool doing it, but you're not supposed to topple him, ever. Furthermore, Cyberpunk's genre conventions dictate that being a do-gooder only gets you betrayed then evicted then killed, and players don't want to take the Idiot Ball of their own volition as a general thing.
Exactly. What's the point of the setting if shadowrunners can all just apply for a SIN and get regular jobs, and nobody hires deniable mercenaries because there's no reason to not just use your own troops?
I don't see what either of those things you just flagged has to do with the notion that Shadowrun should now be at the stage of positing how to respond to the cyberpunk dystopia.

Escalation of the kind that lets corps be at "hot war" with eachother instead of "cold war" with eachother doesn't inherently emanate from examining the failure points of the cyberpunk dystopia and how motivated rebels might push on those failure points until something cracks.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Does shadowrun have any iconic sexy archetypes

Like dnd has dominatrix drow
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Post by Username17 »

OgreBattle wrote:Does shadowrun have any iconic sexy archetypes

Like dnd has dominatrix drow
Brown elvish nipples.

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Post by Stahlseele »

OgreBattle wrote:Does shadowrun have any iconic sexy archetypes

Like dnd has dominatrix drow
Aside from some of the novel/book covers, shadowruns artstyle never really lent itself towards sexy untill SR4 and even that and later stuff is highly questionable . .
But it has elves, so pick your fantasy porn and be done with it.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

FrankTrollman wrote:Shadowrun's future posits that the "nation state" is so discredited that people don't think it's weird that people are paid in corporate scrip instead of nationally issued currencies. Regionalism and isolationism "won" so hard that national governments are so weak that they aren't expected to even attempt to maintain a monopoly of force inside their own declared borders.

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Here's what I see should be happening, as we can see from Brazil, the UK, and the United States: reactionaries within regional powers force their corporate overlords to take actions that weaken their own ability to assert force to satisfy whatever inane political tulpas they have going on at the time. Reactionaries, being reactionaries, are also too stupid to see that they're slitting their own throats. Again, see Brexit.

One of two things happens:
A) A regional power just straight-up collapses. Deficit spending gets too high, the corporate scrip goes into an inflationary spiral, climate change causes destabilizing migration, whatever.
B) Classic ethno-nationalism rises again and fuses collapsed or near-collapsing regional powers into an entity capable of exerting a monopoly of force. The form of it might be really weird and corporate, but not all that distinguishable from, say, Imperial Japan.
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In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Dogbert »

Korwin wrote:@Dogbert, Do you Play Vampire (if you do / or would) as Superhero RPG or as Emo RPG?
Neither, I'm of the "cloak and dagger politicos" persuasion. I prefer my chronicles (like the one I'm currently running) with the PCs on the side of the haves, which while is something that makes Justin Achilli cry bloody murder and whip merchants with a rope outside of the temple, is still mechanically allowed by the rules since the book still presents as an option buying status points at chargen and starting the game as Prince of the city. If the authors really intended the game to be about fanged emo hobos, then they shouldn't have included the Status background in the first place.

Also, the main Campaign Tenet of my current vampire game is "No good deed goes unpunished." Narrating a story on the side of the haves is one thing, but no one is ever going around playing Blood Ghandi or trying to "fix the world of darkness."

Vampire is also a big example of Death of the Author since I have yet to meet a single table that played fanged emo hobos as Achilli intended. While I'm on "team actually have fun" myself, I'm also aware that what I do subverts the author's intentions, I don't pretend to get on some moral high horse rambling that "nothing is true" like some subjectivist.
Thaluikhain wrote:Getting a bit off-topic, but I might argue that once there's enough people creating and consuming a genre who've got the definitions consistently wrong, they stop being wrong, and we just have to accept that the language has evolved.
I accept that language is descriptive, not prescriptive, yes, but when some illiterati says "X it's not and has never been" or "X never happened and Y never said so and so" like some Kevin Siembieda writing screeds on his books, all I see is:

Image

Also, call me old fashioned, but hearing people call Star Wars science fiction or people talking about NuMetal will probably always be fingernails on a chalkboard to me... yeah, I know:

Image
FrankTrollman wrote:Neuromancer is the most influential piece of Cyberpunk literature, but it is certainly and definitionally not the first.
The novel named Steampunk also dates back to the seventies, but it hadn't been established as a genre either back then so, again, what's your point? Nothing is born in a vacuum on the first try, everything had antecedents behind it.
FrankTrollman wrote:Lol Wat. Is this some kind of Dadaist statement on the nature of time travel?
Seriously, it doesn't behoove you to act this butthurt... by the way, I'm still waiting for your lecture on NuQuantum Mechanics in the Endgame thread, Mr. PhD-in-high-energy-physics.
Last edited by Dogbert on Fri May 03, 2019 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Username17 »

Dogbert wrote:The novel named Steampunk also dates back to the seventies, but it hadn't been established as a genre either back then so, again, what's your point? Nothing is born in a vacuum on the first try, everything had antecedents behind it.
The earliest book commonly accepted to be in the Cyberpunk genre was Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep, which came out in 1968. The genre is named after a work that is literally called "Cyberpunk" that came out in 1980. By 1984, not only had the genre been established, it had a name, and Neuromancer was identified as a work of that genre when it was printed.

Neuromancer is probably the first Cyberpunk book you should read, but it's not the first Cyberpunk story or the first work to be identified contemporaneously as being in that genre. True Names came out in 1981, and the entire first volume of fucking Akira was released before Neuromancer was printed in any language (volume 2 was released before Neuromancer was translated into Japanese).

You're just factually fucking wrong. Neuromancer is not the first. It's a seminal work in the Cyberpunk genre. It's the most important single book in the Cyberpunk genre. It's a really big deal. But it is not and could not have been "the first" because other things that are also in the genre came out and were recognized as being part of the genre before Neuromancer was published. Just eat your fucking crow and move on.

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Post by Ancient History »

It's also worth pointing out that "cyberpunk" as a literary subgenre was more of an attitude than anything else. You can trace a lot of the basic elements like cyberware back to stories in the 60s and 70s, like The Languages of Pao. Even Larry Niven's Known Space stories had augmentation. Alien, Bladerunner, and even Star Wars showcased futures which were grimy and less than utopian.

All that being said...and I don't know why they threw out Force...I don't know what the purpose of 6th edition is. Did 5th edition shit the bed so badly that the setting needs a reset? Or is it just that time economically where they want to sell you the same books all over again? I'd believe either one, because I haven't been keeping track at all.
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Post by Nath »

Thirty years of Shadowrun and we're still having this discussion...

The setting is not the story.

The cyberpunk genre was defined by its setting, its theme, writing/visual style and characters - while being relatively open regarding the plot.

A cyberpunk setting alone, or any other of those components individually, doesn't make a game cyberpunk. For the same reason than an homoerotic fiction whether it's set in the Shadowrun setting or in the MCU, is still going to be an homoerotic fiction (as defined by its characters, theme and err, "plot").

Moreover, the cyberpunk is going to have plenty of background details that are not cyberpunk. Corporate slaves are not cyberpunk characters ; war is not a cyberpunk theme and a sunny tropical island is not a cyberpunk visual. The setting can still have them and the story refer to them as background element (my character is war veteran who doesn't want to end up as a corporate slave and consumes sim of sunny tropical island vacation...). Yet cyberpunk still needs that setting, for the same reason punk had meaning in 1970 London, because there also was a working class and an upper class, and did not in 1990 Los Angeles county.

RPG people use the word "background" quite liberally, but the word does have a theatrical meaning - the opposite of the scenic foreground. The background elements are those who are not involved in the theme or the plot. I'm not sure people who would agree that having a dragon running for president of the UCAS was a great addition to Shadowrun background actually mean it, because that's entirely different from having said dragon taking a call from the protagonist.

People are, like, arguing whether the existence of magic in the setting, the unemployement level in Atlanta or the german police authority to infrigue on A-level corporate property makes Shadowrun True to cyberpunk or not. I'm still amazed at the number of people labelling Shadowrun 4th edition as the least cyberpunk while it is, to this day, the only one that doesn't have fundamental character options like wired reflexes or cyberdeck in the same price range than a Ferrari. SR character creation has never enforced cyberpunk characters. And while the typical high-level heist mission is a typical plot for cyberpunk, the unending string of paid jobs and the very pretense of character progression are equally out of theme.

Shadowrun has the ingredients to write and play cyberpunk stories, which a (small) number of authors did. It also has no mechanical nor editorial safeguards to prevent people from writing and playing out of the cyberpunk genre (count me in I guess). As far as I understand, it infuriates people because they don't get cyberpunk-themed sourcebooks and adventures to spend their money on (I consider that a lesser problem than not having good sourcebooks and adventures to spend my money on).
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Post by Whipstitch »

Thaluikhain wrote:Using language "incorrectly" used to really annoy me, nowdays I could care yes.

That's "couldn't care less," you fucking pleb. :razz:

Joking aside, I'd argue that I don't think the general population is particularly insistent on a super narrow definition of cyberpunk and that the slavish devotion to formula Dogbert is talking about is a nostalgic phenomenon fairly unique to roleplaying grognards. Basically, "that wouldn't be punk" is often just a fig leaf covering people's unwillingness to leave old setting material and characters by the wayside. That's understandable to a degree but also rather incompatible with doing anything interesting with the "60 years into the future" conceit, something which goes a long way towards explaining how the franchise ended up with such a thick coat of zeerust.
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Post by Ignimortis »

Well, that Google Doc keeps getting updated...and it's a trashfire. CGL tried to make original mechanics instead of further mutilating 4e, and it shows.

So far from what I see, Troll Shaman will be the best archetype to ever exist in 6e, because spirits are nigh-invulnerable to mundanes, especially at force 6 and up (take note that they still get Hardened Armor equal to Force, and all weapons do from 3P to 6P damage, and AP is gone, so you can literally shoot an anti-tank round at a Force 7 spirit and it won't feel a thing unless you roll well, and then it'll just soak the remaining damage).

Inversely, combat specialists are getting dicked (again), because you can't pump initiative high enough to make more than 2 attacks per combat turn, armor does nothing, and since weapons also do nothing, you'll be better off as a mage who can shoot a gun well enough (no skill investment costs yet, but hell, picking up Firearms 3 or 6 or w/e is the starting point now can't be that hard).
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Post by Username17 »

Lago wrote:One of two things happens:
A) A regional power just straight-up collapses. Deficit spending gets too high, the corporate scrip goes into an inflationary spiral, climate change causes destabilizing migration, whatever.
Uh... that already happened. The United States, China, Germany, all collapsed and broken into more than a dozen pieces each. Shadowrun's future history has some dumb shit, and a lot of it is stuck in 1980s thinking (see: Imperial Japan), but complaints that it doesn't have enough regional powers falling apart due to ethnic tensions and micro-nationalism is absurd. It's the central premise of the setting.

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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

I meant more the megacorps. Right now all of the collapsing are nation-states, but it's time for the corporations (and I mean all of them) to be subject to Balkanization.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Stahlseele »

Err . .
Kind of not really possible?
You need to be a certain size to be an AAA Corp.
If you balkanize them, then you are getting rid of the big 8 that basically rule the world.
You want a Corp.-War?
That is gonna spiral out to actual probably world wide war between the participants.
That is more or less why the corporate court was founded to begin with.
To stop such things from happening.
Because War is not good for business.
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Peculiar properties of spacetime ensure that the perception of the magnitude of Soon is fluid and dependent, not on an individual's time-reference, but on spatial and cultural location. A marketer generally perceives Soon as a finite, known, yet unspeakable time-interval; to a fan, the interval appears greater, and may in fact approach the infinite, becoming Never. Once the interval has passed, however, a certain time-lensing effect seems to occur, and the time-interval becomes vanishingly small. We therefore see the strange result that the same fragment of spacetime may be observed, in quick succession, as Soon, Never, and All Too Quickly.
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Post by Username17 »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:I meant more the megacorps. Right now all of the collapsing are nation-states, but it's time for the corporations (and I mean all of them) to be subject to Balkanization.
They have had megacorps fall apart from time to time. Fuchi and Cross stopped existing at various points. The Shadowrun concept is that the Corporate Court is defined as the largest megacorps. So when a megacorp like Fuchi falls apart, its corporate seat goes to NeoNET.

Generally speaking, shakeups of the corporate court were used by setting writers to make the corporate world seem more "current." So they added Wuxing and Horizon so that they'd have a Chinese company and a media conglomerate, and they dropped some of the redundant Japanese corps because it's not literally the late 80s anymore and it no longer sounds futuristic to imagine the world being dominated by Zaibatsu.

Now Shadowrun doesn't have a really great internal understanding of how megacorps work, so the transitions between them haven't always made a lot of sense. But the megacorp roster isn't static by any means.

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Post by Nath »

Actually, the corporations were heavily balkanized in the earlier sourcebooks. Throughout the Seattle Sourcebook, The Neo-Anarchist Guide to North America and Native American Nations, you keep getting another and another corporations in every chapter (Hyundai-IBM anyone ?).

It wouldn't be until Corporate Shadowfiles that Nigel Findley would introduce the idea of the Big Eight (six of them coming from the list of the ten biggest corps in Seattle, the two others being Saeder-Krupp and tFindley's pet corp Yamatetsu). Late second edition nonetheless kept introducing and using new corporations, including but not limited to Wuxing and Cross (but who remember Phoenix Biotechnologies or Gunderson Corporation?). It is the early third edition that really started solidifying the (now) Big Ten grip on the setting, in books like Shadows of North America or Year of the Comet, and the well-known (but often misquoted) "the Big Ten control more resources than all the other corporations in the world put together" statement from Corporate Download. Still, that was immediately followed by a (short-lived) attempt to put the light on dozens of others megacorporations at AA-level in Shadows of Europe and Shadows of Asia.

So pointing out the small number of major corps as proof of Shadowrun setting having not evolved since 1989 miss the point fucking badly. It, at best, applies to the fourth and fifth editions.
Last edited by Nath on Sat May 04, 2019 7:59 pm, edited 3 times in total.
TheFlatline
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Post by TheFlatline »

Lago PARANOIA wrote: Here's what I see should be happening, as we can see from Brazil, the UK, and the United States: reactionaries within regional powers force their corporate overlords to take actions that weaken their own ability to assert force to satisfy whatever inane political tulpas they have going on at the time. Reactionaries, being reactionaries, are also too stupid to see that they're slitting their own throats. Again, see Brexit.
Brexit only exists because:
1. There is a clause in the EU allowing countries to leave
2. The EU has no control over the UK's governing body.

Neither of those are really possible within a corporation. In the event of a corporate brexit, I can see the brexit friendly management faction just getting fired or reassigned.
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