Breaking modern society

[SphereOfFeetMan]

You can't have both. Either he starts killing or nations won't surrender.

Fair enough.

And it's a bluff because every country knows that if he destroys a thing he can't have it. After he kills one country, the rest can still call his bluff. the world is worth nothing if it's destroyed.

After he kills one country the rest of the nations know Superman isn't bluffing. When Superman goes to country #2 and says the same thing, are you seriously saying that they will respond "Yeah, we saw you kill nation #1, but we're betting you're bluffing." If it is known that Superman never lies, then it is doubly ridiculous to think that country #2 would tell Superman to fuck off.

The US can destroy the whole planet around 150 times. I mean, once you are in "world destroyer" class, the rest is semantics.

Nope. The US can destroy the surface of the world 150 times over. Superman can build an underground base miles below the surface of the earth and populate it with enough survivors to keep the human race alive. Superman can also truly destroy the planet so that there is nothing left.

We KNOW that invading other countries means you die for the right to feed them and deal with car bombs. We have the lowest army recruiting numbers we've ever had.

Good luck recruiting from the US.

Frank posted a possible "solution" to this in anther thread. Superman's empire has two options: join or die. There is no occupying.

First world nations are selfish. They don't want to go to war or deal with other people's problems.

Is that why the US is now in Iraq?

Why would you when you already have the highest lifestyle on the planet?

Because your leaders lie to you. Because you believe in the Religion of Superman and the Kryptonians. Because you want to live in and believe in an insanely patriotic advanced country.

A. Nuclear material is the most highly controlled thing on the planet. He's not buying it.

Before a war, if Superman says something like: "Hey guys. I don't like these nuclear weapons around. They can wipe everybody out. Let me buy them from you and destroy them. How about I give you 5 trillion dollars worth of raw materials and free energy if you give them to me. Sound fair?"

I'm guessing that most if not all countries would take the deal.

B. We can make new bombs. It's not even hard as long as you only want to melt cities.

Superman has weapons inspectors in every country as part of the 5 trillion dollar deal.

He'll never know. He's no detective.

The suitcase bomb is made for this kind of thing. you walk in and there is no way anyone can ever be pointed to. That's why it's so scary that Russia has lost like 20.

Superman says "If any nuclear weapons go off, I will destroy a major city in every country." Then you have a situation where no country would use nuclear weapons, and every country in the world will actively try to find any loose nuclear weapons and stop them from being used against Superman's empire.

If they have all the same powers, then Superman has none.

Right. That's why they are only similar. They have proxy authority at the behest of Superman. They still govern the same number of people. They still have cultural control over all issues Superman doesn't care about. They still have positions of power over those in their communities. They still receive greater compensation. They still have positions of respect. They still have greater protection.

You aren't making any sense.

Or you are deliberately rephrasing and mischaracterizing my argument.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

People don't trust murderers because they might murder you. They don't even want to be in the same room.

Concerning unpredictable criminals, sure. Concerning predictable people, not so much. There are tons of examples of countries, societies, and individual people who only killed those that were ideologically opposed to them. The people on their team were never targeted, and in some cases never feared for their lives. Some people on religious crusades were murderous. That doesn't mean that they didn't trust each other. Indeed, blind faith is the most trust one can get. Superman can either create a new religion about himself or always tell the truth.

Being a truthful murderer is just scarier. Then you know that if you fuck up he will kill you.

Yes. So? That is the point. You do your job, obey Superman, and you go on living.

Governments aren't for sale. Ask Ross Perot.

Hahaha. Maybe you should tell that to Blackwater and all the other companies utilizing war profiteering in Dick Cheney's Iraq.

Also, Frank recently posted about how in the past the merchants in China purchased the government. Are you disputing this?

To prevent world domination under a madman.....yeh, people really will still nuke Supermanland. One city per nation is worth it.

I don't doubt that many people would choose death over enslavement. However, "world domination" isn't special, it's only a matter of scale. There are many cases in the world today where people choose to be dominated rather than die.

It would just come down to the fact that Superman would kill all those who didn't surrender. And those that did would proliferate.

[RandomCasualty2]

I'm sure that once the message get's out that Superman is world class douche and he's trying to kill everyone, and then the TV stations go down, people will have the message.

People know George Bush is a world class douche and we still listen to him. You really don't have to like your leaders to take orders from them.

People make irrational choices all the time, especially when they've been prompted by good propaganda.

And the real response is not "give him what he wants or die for a good cause." The third choice is "oh crap, Superman is in my life so I'd better get the fuck out of town because that guy is an immoral mass murderer."

Every good relationship is built on trust. Once you know that someone can't be trusted, you don't deal with them. Superman in this scenario is a criminal and a walking atrocity and crime against humanity, so you are not going to trust that guy because you know in your heart that he might just kill you anyway. He could pay ten times the going rate for any service and people would still avoid him.

I'm going to call bullshit on that. People pay ransoms for kidnapped victims all the time, not necessarily because they trust the kidnappers but just because they don't want to lose a loved one. Battered women stay with husbands that beat them out of sheer fear that they will hunt them down and kill them. And that's just some ordinary guy, not some indestructible supervillain with godlike hearing. Unlike in D&D, fear in real life doesn't always manifest in a panicked run away from the thing that scares you. If someone draws a gun on them, the majority of people are going to hold still and surrender as opposed to trying to make sudden movements.

While it's easy to just say "Leave town and don't look back". That's fucking hard. You leave behind your home, most of your possessions and your job. How is your family going to eat? Where are you going to stay? This isn't the witness protection program where you're given an entirely new identity and job, you've got to find that stuff for yourself. For the most part, people are lazy. So long as Superman doesn't start slaughtering people at random, they may just play along and hope to keep him happy.

There's really no advantage to running away.

[JonSetanta]

People know George Bush is a world class douche and we still listen to him. You really don't have to like your leaders to take orders from them.

Fallacy. Most people listen to him. People like me pretend he's gone already.
If only more did the same.

[K]

People don't trust murderers because they might murder you. They don't even want to be in the same room.

Concerning unpredictable criminals, sure. Concerning predictable people, not so much. There are tons of examples of countries, societies, and individual people who only killed those that were ideologically opposed to them. The people on their team were never targeted, and in some cases never feared for their lives. Some people on religious crusades were murderous. That doesn't mean that they didn't trust each other. Indeed, blind faith is the most trust one can get. Superman can either create a new religion about himself or always tell the truth.

Being a truthful murderer is just scarier. Then you know that if you fuck up he will kill you.

Yes. So? That is the point. You do your job, obey Superman, and you go on living.

Yeh, but Superman is not on some team. there is no PR firm telling people what he wants. It's just Superman killing a crapton of people until he sets up some semblance of an order before people start trying to nuke him. At that point he can just have his people tell everyone that Superman will keep his word, but by then people will only see an insane murderer.

They won't know if he can be trusted, but they will know he's a murderer.

You see, killing in a war is not murder. Murder is killing when you don't have some society at your back.

Governments aren't for sale. Ask Ross Perot.

Hahaha. Maybe you should tell that to Blackwater and all the other companies utilizing war profiteering in Dick Cheney's Iraq.

Also, Frank recently posted about how in the past the merchants in China purchased the government. Are you disputing this?

When did I become Frank?

Seriously. People in government will let you bribe them on unimportant things like government contracts. They won't sell the government itself because by getting bribed they make their money.

To prevent world domination under a madman.....yeh, people really will still nuke Supermanland. One city per nation is worth it.

I don't doubt that many people would choose death over enslavement. However, "world domination" isn't special, it's only a matter of scale. There are many cases in the world today where people choose to be dominated rather than die.

It would just come down to the fact that Superman would kill all those who didn't surrender. And those that did would proliferate.

Planning for world domination is insane, so lots of people will just bug out when Superman starts telling them that the world is his. I mean, once a guy who kills cities comes to my town, I'm finding a way out.

I expect that modern society will break down completely if Superman tries his thing. Economies are fragile things, so when some guy starts destroying cities and the eventual revolutionary uprisings start, things basically go World of Darkness.

[K]

I'm sure that once the message get's out that Superman is world class douche and he's trying to kill everyone, and then the TV stations go down, people will have the message.

People know George Bush is a world class douche and we still listen to him. You really don't have to like your leaders to take orders from them.

Yeh, but people know that he's restricted by the Senate and the Courts, and the limits of economics.

That's a little different from a godthing personally telling the world "serve me or die."

People make irrational choices all the time, especially when they've been prompted by good propaganda.

And the real response is not "give him what he wants or die for a good cause." The third choice is "oh crap, Superman is in my life so I'd better get the fuck out of town because that guy is an immoral mass murderer."

Every good relationship is built on trust. Once you know that someone can't be trusted, you don't deal with them. Superman in this scenario is a criminal and a walking atrocity and crime against humanity, so you are not going to trust that guy because you know in your heart that he might just kill you anyway. He could pay ten times the going rate for any service and people would still avoid him.

I'm going to call bullshit on that. People pay ransoms for kidnapped victims all the time, not necessarily because they trust the kidnappers but just because they don't want to lose a loved one. Battered women stay with husbands that beat them out of sheer fear that they will hunt them down and kill them. And that's just some ordinary guy, not some indestructible supervillain with godlike hearing. Unlike in D&D, fear in real life doesn't always manifest in a panicked run away from the thing that scares you. If someone draws a gun on them, the majority of people are going to hold still and surrender as opposed to trying to make sudden movements.

While it's easy to just say "Leave town and don't look back". That's fucking hard. You leave behind your home, most of your possessions and your job. How is your family going to eat? Where are you going to stay? This isn't the witness protection program where you're given an entirely new identity and job, you've got to find that stuff for yourself. For the most part, people are lazy. So long as Superman doesn't start slaughtering people at random, they may just play along and hope to keep him happy.

There's really no advantage to running away.

Smart money always leaves town. I grew up in a hometown where my playmates were children of Cambodians who fled the Khmer Rouge in the 70s, so I don't really buy the whole "people are lazy when their lives are on the line."

[Orion]

How exactly is superman going to avoid killing anyone who hasn't personally crossed him while ALSO threatening to destroy whole citites in retribution against governments that piss him off?

What makes you think that any amount of money would let him buy, for example, weapons inspectors? After he's bought all the nukes, how does he make sure nobody makes more?

You mentioned him lending a helping hand to those who stop paying taxes -- but I thought his goal was to take over the government, and collect those taxes himself. Which is it? Is he destroying the odl society and building form scratch, or is he taking over? If the latter, he doesn't want to encourage disobedience to authority.

[Calibron]

Would it just be easier to go scorched earth and bring about a new dark age; and after a few generations have gone by rebuild society in your own image/as it pleases you?

Destroy the modern world as we know it and propaganda campaigns aren't as far reaching or probably even on anyones mind as they're fighting wild dogs for their food.

[K]

Would it just be easier to go scorched earth and bring about a new dark age; and after a few generations have gone by rebuild society in your own image/as it pleases you?

Easily.

The problem is that modern society empowers people. Empowered people ditch religion in favor of logic, build economies, do important research, and generally form the fabric of modern society. The conceits of freedom are the essence of a growing and vibrant society.

So yes, Superman can rule a dark age. He just can't rule a modern one.

[Username17]

So yes, Superman can rule a dark age. He just can't rule a modern one.

Pretty much sums it up. Now what he can do is influence a modern society. Being nigh invulnerable and incredibly personally powerful he can start a religion or a political party or whatever. People in modern society really honestly don't see the direct effects of the people at the top most of the time in their daily lives. The bureaucracy keeps chugging on no matter how awesome or ravingly insane the guys at the top are. As K said, the guys at the top don't even have to exist, and there is more than one piece of science fiction that revolves around the idea that they don't (Equilibrium, Battle Angel, and so on and so forth).

So the people might just as easily be willing to vote with their dollars or signatures for Superman. The fact that he can bounce a bullet off his eye is as good a reason to put him "in charge" as any. Heck, the majority of people who voted for George W. Bush did so because they thought they'd like to share a beer with him (I'm talking about the popular vote, not the 5-4 one that actually mattered). Those dumbasses aren't ever likely to see Bush, let alone share a beer with the dude, but that seriously entered the thought processes of a lot of people. People buy more Wheaties because they have sports stars on the front. People join Christianity because he could walk on water, people become Buddhists because the Buddha had laser eye beams. People will fall in lock step behind Superman if he flexes his muscles, smiles for the camera, and waves to the crowd.

But even if he gets elected King of Earth, he won't actually be able to control everything. Not even most things. Last night I was out with some friends and a woman behind the counter seriously refused to give out an ice cream cone with two scoops of two different flavors. There's no rule that you have to get both scoops of the same flavor, and if you asked even a total douchebag like President Klaus if people should be allowed to get different flavors of ice cream for their different scoops, I'm sure he'd say yes. But it's not up to President Klaus. It's not up to the Zmrzlina company, it's not even up to the restaurant manager, the woman behind the counter has the final say. And if you want to change anything, you'll have to send a complaint up through channels and you won't even necessarily succeed even if the official rules already support your position.

Modern society is too big for anyone to control. Even though someone of sufficient awesomeness can by any of a number of means get themselves placed at the highest levels of control that society can grant - those levels don't actually involving running everything. In many ways, those levels don't involve running anything. Once you become "powerful" enough you don't micromanage any single event, you just influence lots of events. But if the grain of society is facing in a different direction from where you want it to go, your influence may not even be visible in the face of the societal pressures already in effect.

So basically that's the long and the short of it. If you are personally really powerful for whatever reason, then you can have absolute control over an archaic civilization, or you can be just one of many highly influential things in a modern one. Such powers could be anything from being nigh invulnerable to just being a really good public speaker. It's honestly not that different as far as society cares.

-Username17

[Hey_I_Can_Chan]

There's another way (and it might've been mentioned on page 2). Warren Ellis's Black Summer puts forth the idea that a lone superhuman--John Horus--can violently murder POTUS (hi, DHS!) and then rally all of the U. S. against him, that is, John Horus. This serves to break down party lines and force humanity to close ranks against an enemy impossible for them to defeat alone. It societal restructuring done back-asswards, like in Watchmen, but with more swearing.

Superman doesn't have to be a dick. He just has to pick his targets and process the results of his actions far enough in advance to get the result he wants. That's the true value of being immortal--you get to plan holy-fucking-God way far ahead, so if you have your actuary tables that says Baby #10,002,920,920 is so important she needs to die, you can totally do that.

Immortality and vast power provide perspective, which is something many humans lack.

…the Buddha had laser eye beams.

Knowing that Frank is always right, I just have to say, "Really?"

[Username17]

The Buddha's stories are pretty weird, and mostly historical. Unlike the founder of Taoism or Christianity, Buddha is a specific real historical person who was born in a specific real place, did specific real things, wrote down a specific real philosophy himself, and had a specific real effect on history while he was specifically really doing things in real time.

He was a Hindu prince at the start, so he seriously does wander around doing D&D stuff. Having had access to military training and protein and calories, he is several times accosted by enemies only to personally beat the crap out of them with a stick or his bare hands. That being said, some of the stories about his capabilities are doubtless exaggerations.

During his quest for enlightenment, Buddha tries many different things and goes and samples many different philosophies. And one of his adventures is that he goes to a monastery and the monks there won't let him in. They think he's the wrong caste or something, and will not allow him to read their scrolls. So his response is to go sit down and stare at their monastery until he burns a hole in the wall and then they cave in and allow him full access. Now this is probably an exaggeration - most likely the real event is less dramatic and involves Siddhartha winning a staring contest against some monks after a row about caste issues (a confrontation which doubtless contributed to his revelation that people of every caste should be allowed to seek enlightenment), but there it is part of the historical record that Siddhartha burned a hole in a building with his laser eyebeams. Make of that what you will.

-Username17

[Cielingcat]

That is the greatest thing I've ever heard.

[Fwib]

I can certainly see how something that said 'He gained entry to the building by the power of his eyes' (re: staring contest theory) could be easily re-written by scribes or translators as Eye Beams

[RandomCasualty2]

But even if he gets elected King of Earth, he won't actually be able to control everything. Not even most things. Last night I was out with some friends and a woman behind the counter seriously refused to give out an ice cream cone with two scoops of two different flavors. There's no rule that you have to get both scoops of the same flavor, and if you asked even a total douchebag like President Klaus if people should be allowed to get different flavors of ice cream for their different scoops, I'm sure he'd say yes. But it's not up to President Klaus. It's not up to the Zmrzlina company, it's not even up to the restaurant manager, the woman behind the counter has the final say. And if you want to change anything, you'll have to send a complaint up through channels and you won't even necessarily succeed even if the official rules already support your position.

Well that's true of any ruler anywhere. So that's not really saying much. I mean, pretty much regardless of how you rule, some people are going to break the rules when you turn your back.

Superman just has the advantage of getting people to play by his rules while he's around, or people think there's a legitimate threat that he could come back.

[Jerry]

But assuming that Superman tried to take over a country, then wouldn't the other superheroes/villains try to team up and show him his place? I mean, Superman isn't the only super in the DC universe.

[Calibron]

And that's what happens when you don't skim the whole thread before posting. Or possibly what happens when you try to be witty over the internet.

[JonSetanta]

Eh, my post(s) was skipped over entirely. Many concepts have been repeated in this thread over, and over, and over again. Don't give a shit, really.

And way to get stuck on Superman.

[Jerry]

And that's what happens when you don't skim the whole thread before posting. Or possibly what happens when you try to be witty over the internet.

I'm not trying to be witty, just asking an honest question. I didn't see anybody bring this up.

[JonSetanta]

I'm not trying to be witty, just asking an honest question. I didn't see anybody bring this up.

Well, read Kingdom Come.

[Amra]

I think K touched on the real answer. The entire global economy as it stands is built on bullshit and fairy dust. A force majeur event like Superman turning up and saying "All your bank are belong to me" would cause financial armageddon. He doesn't have to kill people; he doesn't even have to do anything intentionally bad, although I realise that's diverging from the OP's postulate.

Even the thought that he might supply someone - anyone - with limitless free energy would be enough to bring world trade to a crashing halt for a decade or more. You'd end up with an economic whirlpool greater than even Ben Bernanke's favourite wet dream. The world (a few dictatorships/closed "economies" aside) would more-or-less be forced to capitulate and join Team Superman because free energy is not something you could ever afford to be on the outside of. And even then, a very large number of people are going to starve to death before a new equilibrium is found unless he spends his time redistributing foodstuffs 24/7.

It wouldn't even have to be energy, per se, although that's the best and most obvious example. I guess what I'm saying is that modern society in its current form couldn't survive the mere presence of a nigh-omnipotent being, unless they were damn sure said being wasn't going to exercise its powers!