Orientalist Fantasy Settings

[FatR]

Even in Tolkien there are people who can slice rocks and dance so hard that walls fall down and sing trees out of the ground and shit. And there are plenty of East Asian stories where the limits of mundane characters are pretty strictly enforced. And indeed, lots of East Asian stories where Magic Dudes >> You.

Frankly if any modern Japanese or Chinese fantasy has explicit magic in it, differentiated in the setting from just getting really strong by doing a lot of push-ups, is a very common rule that people without that magic can never ever accomplish anything meaningful. Chinese cultivation novels also tend to explicitly say that it is the world where if you have magic potential you're a king, and if you don't, you're a dog. Even if for lower-level practitioners magic still amounts to punching things harder. For an RPG it means, basically, that once you get past street-level adventures and start dealing with supernatural things regularly, everyone should get a source of supernatural power.

[Username17]

Avatar is a very interesting case. TLA is a near perfect piece of storytelling that very effectively combines Korean and American sensibilities that tells a compelling story with great characters and great visuals that makes me want to hear more stories about the characters and the world. I would definitely recommend. But there are elements that make it very difficult to use as the setting for a role playing game. Just the fact that by default Water Benders are "kill on sight" in the Fire Nation and Fire Benders are "kill on sight" in the Water Nations is super corrosive to getting an RPG together. It took a season and a half of dense storytelling to get Zuko and Katara into the same adventuring party, and in an RPG that's supposed to be like paragraph zero.

On the flip side, the changes to the setting in Legend of Kora make for a much better RPG setting. You have advanced tech that allows characters who are "non-benders" to pull their weight as gadgeteers, you have the built-in assumption that different bender types will team up and adventure together, it's just much more conducive to an RPG. But of course, the actual Legend of Kora show is marred by some really terrible pacing issues and some dumb deus ex machinas that make the story a real let-down. I'm not even sure if I would recommend watching the thing.

-Username17

[maglag]

Would it be that hard for a TLA RPG to go "there were turncoats in both sides" so you can have any mix of benders?

You could even claim there were other airbenders still around, just keeping their heads low and acting behind the scenes, because otherwise by the title there's only one airbender to go around and he's kinda busy.

Also unless you want to perfectly replicate the original show's story, you can just create your own new story, which can be put either in different locations and/or times. TLA covers the whole world but we only see some bits, so plenty of space to fill, and then there's the before and after (and between between Ang and Korra).

[JigokuBosatsu]

"there were turncoats in both sides"

Ahh, the ol' "antitribu bender" solution...

[Wiseman]

Technically, characters like that do exist.


https://avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Afiko


Afiko, an airbender who turned traitor and helped the fire nation reach the temples.

[jadagul]

Avatar is a very interesting case. TLA is a near perfect piece of storytelling that very effectively combines Korean and American sensibilities that tells a compelling story with great characters and great visuals that makes me want to hear more stories about the characters and the world. I would definitely recommend. But there are elements that make it very difficult to use as the setting for a role playing game. Just the fact that by default Water Benders are "kill on sight" in the Fire Nation and Fire Benders are "kill on sight" in the Water Nations is super corrosive to getting an RPG together. It took a season and a half of dense storytelling to get Zuko and Katara into the same adventuring party, and in an RPG that's supposed to be like paragraph zero.

On the flip side, the changes to the setting in Legend of Kora make for a much better RPG setting. You have advanced tech that allows characters who are "non-benders" to pull their weight as gadgeteers, you have the built-in assumption that different bender types will team up and adventure together, it's just much more conducive to an RPG. But of course, the actual Legend of Kora show is marred by some really terrible pacing issues and some dumb deus ex machinas that make the story a real let-down. I'm not even sure if I would recommend watching the thing.

-Username17

There's a lot of fiction that would provide really good settings for RPGs as long as you don't actually set them during the fiction.

During the fiction story, there are three sources of power that are each specifically usable by exactly one person in the world, and also everything that actually matters is being done by one of the seven protagonists (who include the three people with unique powersets).

Thirty years after the story concludes, none of that is true. You can take all the good stuff from the setting without having to warp it around the demands of the story that was being written.

(I see this primarily for Wheel of Time. A game set during the events of the books would be a clusterfuck, but a game set right after the books end would work really well, and a game set several hundred years before would also work pretty well. But it applies to a lot of things, including ATLA).

[Username17]

There's a lot of fiction that would provide really good settings for RPGs as long as you don't actually set them during the fiction.

Is there?

I mean, if you're not playing during the actual Wheel of Time books, what is actually in the setting that you'd care about? Honestly, I'm pretty much over Star Wars precisely because it turns out that when they make trilogies about other time periods I don't like them very much. There's Harry Potter material set in the past somewhere, but no one likes it and I haven't bothered watching or reading any of it.

Basically, you can make an RPG setting that is "similar" an existing property with various changes that make it work better (or at all) as an RPG. But if those changes involve making the things people like in the setting not be there, why are you fucking bothering?

An Orientalist fantasy setting is pretty much starting out as something that is intended to be reminiscent of something else. Why second order that shit?

Or to put it another way: there's no particular gain in doing "L5R,butina different time period where we've changed a bunch of the setting assumptions" when you can just make your own Orientalist Fantasy Heartbreaker and use whatever tropes from L5R that you feel worked OK. Using the setting but dumping all the characters and events by playing in an undefined other time period means you're accepting the setting's baggage but depriving yourself of the actual draws of the setting in particular.

-Username17

[Omegonthesane]

There's a lot of fiction that would provide really good settings for RPGs as long as you don't actually set them during the fiction.

Is there?

I mean, if you're not playing during the actual Wheel of Time books, what is actually in the setting that you'd care about? Honestly, I'm pretty much over Star Wars precisely because it turns out that when they make trilogies about other time periods I don't like them very much. There's Harry Potter material set in the past somewhere, but no one likes it and I haven't bothered watching or reading any of it.

Basically, you can make an RPG setting that is "similar" an existing property with various changes that make it work better (or at all) as an RPG. But if those changes involve making the things people like in the setting not be there, why are you fucking bothering?

This argument only holds weight if you assume "the things people like in the setting" are exclusive to the era in which the original story takes place. In the case of Star Wars, do you imagine the KOTOR games would have become internet famous if people didn't like the Jedi and the Old Republic?

Indeed, clearly enough people who share your disdain for the prequels and the Disnequels don't extrapolate it to disinterest in all Star Wars stories that don't intersect with the original trilogy for such EU material to work.

I'm not that invested in the shit the Aes Sedai do or the way their magic works or the Seanchan or the Forsaken or... whatever any of the fucking nations on the main continent was called that I'd be the target audience for a WoT RPG set other than during Rand al'Thor's campaign, but it's not somehow unimaginable to me that anyone else could be. And full disclosure, I haven't even set eyes on one of those books since I was like 13.

Or to put it another way: there's no particular gain in doing "L5R,butina different time period where we've changed a bunch of the setting assumptions" when you can just make your own Orientalist Fantasy Heartbreaker and use whatever tropes from L5R that you feel worked OK. Using the setting but dumping all the characters and events by playing in an undefined other time period means you're accepting the setting's baggage but depriving yourself of the actual draws of the setting in particular.

I don't think anyone was proposing we do that with L5R in particular.

[souran]

There's a lot of fiction that would provide really good settings for RPGs as long as you don't actually set them during the fiction.

Is there?

I mean, if you're not playing during the actual Wheel of Time books, what is actually in the setting that you'd care about? Honestly, I'm pretty much over Star Wars precisely because it turns out that when they make trilogies about other time periods I don't like them very much. There's Harry Potter material set in the past somewhere, but no one likes it and I haven't bothered watching or reading any of it.

Actually, I think that the just about any time except when Rand and Co. are around would be pretty good for story telling in the WOT world.

There are significant segments of the history that have enough bad shit happening without detail on what actually happened to you could have big important adventures.

Additionally, during the novels all the secrets get uncovered and all the characters have multiple long lost talents.

If you set the WOT rpg between 500 and 50 years before WOT novels you could have each character have one of the super special powers (channeling, wolf brother, be a Ta'veren, dreamwalking, crafting) and that would be be a big fucking deal. Hell evening having a character who is an Aeil would be a big deal.

Anyway, while I think that WOT is not a great example for your point, I think your broader point stands. I think the WORST time and place to play star wars is when the the main trilogy is, but everything that is not when the main trilogy is eventually ends up in "who gives a shit" territory. I liked KOTOR but honestly the only thing that was particularly "star wars" about it was the jedi themselves.

[Longes]

I'd actually argue that KOTOR as a period was successful because it took everything people liked about Star Wars and doubled down on that. People like jedi, so there's a ton of jedi running around. People like sith, so there's a whole sith empire and sith academy. Because if you are playing in the Republic period then there are no dark side users unless you homebrew your own not-sith, and if you are playing in the Original Trilogy period then there are no jedi or sith at all and the purists complain at you.

It's not really surprising in retrospect that much of the discussion about Tome of Battle was "how anime" it was. Obviously that book wasn't especially anime in any real terms, but it was different from the "gritty realizarm" of Gygaxian Tolkienism.

In the other hand, Tolkien wizards can do little more than fireworks magic wise, and when the going gets tough Tolkien wizards just pull swords designed by ancient smiths to stabs their enemies. Sharp implements are the way to go for dealing with most Tolkien threats actually.

Tolkien wizards can do a lot more magic than fireworks, but they choose not to because the last time divine powers threw down - they destroyed an entire continent. Gandalf sticks to swords and flashbangs because he can achieve more with less. Saruman's favorite magic is science which is why he builds fucking bombs and breeds super-orcs. But across Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion people have:
* Commanded an army of the dead (Aragorn, Witch-King)
* Put an entire castle and god of evil to sleep (Luthien)
* Resurrected (Beren, by Luthien)
* Maintained and nourished a community for centuries (Galadriel, Elrond)
* Controlled water to murderize evil ghosts (Elrond)
* Talked to animals (lots of people)
* Made impenetrable doors (Dwarves of Moria)
* Had bardic rock-offs with army-shattering side-effects (Finrod vs Morgoth)
* Enchant grenades (Gandalf)
* Conjure fires of varying intensity (Gandalf)
* Blow up bridges (Gandalf)

Really, Lord of the Rings magic works under FATE rules rather than D&D rules. Magic-users don't solve every problem with magic - they spend a fate point on bringing it under dramatic circumstances.

[maglag]

I'd actually argue that KOTOR as a period was successful because it took everything people liked about Star Wars and doubled down on that. People like jedi, so there's a ton of jedi running around. People like sith, so there's a whole sith empire and sith academy. Because if you are playing in the Republic period then there are no dark side users unless you homebrew your own not-sith, and if you are playing in the Original Trilogy period then there are no jedi or sith at all and the purists complain at you.

Another recent example, 30k became quite popular since it's even more different flavors of the favorite faction of sphech merines with sphech merines on top and a side of sphech merines.

It's not really surprising in retrospect that much of the discussion about Tome of Battle was "how anime" it was. Obviously that book wasn't especially anime in any real terms, but it was different from the "gritty realizarm" of Gygaxian Tolkienism.

In the other hand, Tolkien wizards can do little more than fireworks magic wise, and when the going gets tough Tolkien wizards just pull swords designed by ancient smiths to stabs their enemies. Sharp implements are the way to go for dealing with most Tolkien threats actually.

Tolkien wizards can do a lot more magic than fireworks, but they choose not to because the last time divine powers threw down - they destroyed an entire continent. Gandalf sticks to swords and flashbangs because he can achieve more with less. Saruman's favorite magic is science which is why he builds fucking bombs and breeds super-orcs.

So why couldn't Sauruman science up anything anymore when he took over the Shire with just normal thugs?

But across Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion people have:
* Commanded an army of the dead (Aragorn, Witch-King)

Magic sword power.

* Put an entire castle and god of evil to sleep (Luthien)

Putting other people to sleep by singing is something even real people can do.

* Resurrected (Beren, by Luthien)

She just traded her immortal life for mortal lifes for them both, which was a net negative trade (infinite time for some decades). And she specifically had to negotiate with the gods of the afterlife to make it happen.

* Maintained and nourished a community for centuries (Galadriel, Elrond)

Humans have maintained and nourished communities for longer, weaksauce.

* Controlled water to murderize evil ghosts (Elrond)
* Talked to animals (lots of people)
* Made impenetrable doors (Dwarves of Moria)
* Had bardic rock-offs with army-shattering side-effects (Finrod vs Morgoth)

Fancy, but all well below defeating a Balor which only works with swording.

* Enchant grenades (Gandalf)
* Conjure fires of varying intensity (Gandalf)
* Blow up bridges (Gandalf)

Fireworks by any other name, and still inferior to swording.

Really, Lord of the Rings magic works under FATE rules rather than D&D rules. Magic-users don't solve every problem with magic - they spend a fate point on bringing it under dramatic circumstances.

Gandalf literally runs a magic firework business, that's hardly "dramatic circumstances only".

But a Balor shows up? Now that's a proper dramatic event, and also sweet swording time!

[Longes]

But across Lord of the Rings and Silmarillion people have:
* Commanded an army of the dead (Aragorn, Witch-King)

Magic sword power.

Literal witchcraft on the side of witch-king (it's in the name for Eru's sake!). And Aragorn's army of the dead was a result of Isildur cursing kings who didn't honor oaths of fealty to him.

* Put an entire castle and god of evil to sleep (Luthien)

Putting other people to sleep by singing is something even real people can do.

Next you'll be arguing that flying isn't magic because people can jump.

* Resurrected (Beren, by Luthien)

She just traded her immortal life for mortal lifes for them both, which was a net negative trade (infinite time for some decades). And she specifically had to negotiate with the gods of the afterlife to make it happen.

Resurrection is resurrection.

* Controlled water to murderize evil ghosts (Elrond)
* Talked to animals (lots of people)
* Made impenetrable doors (Dwarves of Moria)
* Had bardic rock-offs with army-shattering side-effects (Finrod vs Morgoth)

Fancy, but all well below defeating a Balor which only works with swording.

* Enchant grenades (Gandalf)
* Conjure fires of varying intensity (Gandalf)
* Blow up bridges (Gandalf)

Fireworks by any other name, and still inferior to swording.

Really, Lord of the Rings magic works under FATE rules rather than D&D rules. Magic-users don't solve every problem with magic - they spend a fate point on bringing it under dramatic circumstances.

Gandalf literally runs a magic firework business, that's hardly "dramatic circumstances only".

But a Balor shows up? Now that's a proper dramatic event, and also sweet swording time!

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.

‘You cannot pass,’ he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. ‘I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.’

The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

From out of the shadow a red sword leaped flaming.

Glamdring glittered white in answer.

There was a ringing clash and a stab of white fire. The Balrog fell back, and its sword flew up in molten fragments. The wizard swayed on the bridge, stepped back a pace, and then again stood still.

‘You cannot pass!’ he said.

With a bound the Balrog leaped full upon the bridge. Its whip whirled and hissed.

‘He cannot stand alone!’ cried Aragorn suddenly and ran back along the bridge. ‘Elendil!’ he shouted. ‘I am with you, Gandalf!’

‘Gondor!’ cried Boromir and leaped after him.

At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog’s feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness.

Like thunder they broke upon the enemy on either flank of the retreat; but one rider outran them all, swift as the wind in the grass: Shadowfax bore him, shining, unveiled once more, a light starting from his upraised hand.
The Nazgul screeched and swept away, for their Captain was not yet come to challenge the white fire of his foe.

But not Gandalf. Bilbo’s yell had done that much good. It had wakened him up wide in a splintered second, and when the goblins came to grab him, there was a terrific flash like lightning in the cave, a smell like gunpowder, and several of them fell dead.

He raised his hand, and spoke slowly in a clear cold voice. ''Saruman, your staff is broken.'' There was a crack, and the staff split asunder in Saruman's hand, and the head of it fell down at Gandalf's feet.

But Gandalf sprang up the steps, and the men fell back from him and covered their eyes; for his coming was like the incoming of a white light into a dark place, and he came with great anger. He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.

"Come back Saruman!" said Gandalf in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned again, and as if dragged against his will, he slowly came back to the iron rail, leaning on it, breathing hard. His face was lined and shrunken. his hand clutched on his heavy black staff like a claw.

In the wavering firelight Gandalf seemed suddenly to grow: he rose up, a great menacing shape like the monument of some ancient king of stone set upon a hill. Stooping like a cloud, he lifted a burning branch and strode to meet the wolves. They gave back before him. High in the air he tossed the blazing brand. It flared with a sudden white radiance like lightning; and his voice rolled like thunder.
''Naur an edraith ammen! Naur dan i ngaurhoth!'' he cried.
There was a roar and a crackle, and the tree above him burst into a leaf and bloom of blinding flame. The fire leapt from tree-top to tree-top. The whole hill was crowned with dazzling light.

[FatR]

Gandalf sticks to swords and flashbangs because he can achieve more with less.

Gandalf sticks to swords and flashbangs because he abstains from ever using magic to directly kill or mind control weaker orders of beings. There is no reason to assume that there is a physical, instead of a ethical limit that made him instantly lit up a circle of trees to illuminate a werewolf pack, instead of spending the same amount of power to roast them directly (Bayaz from the the First Law trilogy provides some nice illustrations of how terrifying a magic user with a small portion of Gandalf's power but more ruthlessness can be). As about fighting the balrog, Gandalf only sworded him in the movie. There is a short, vague description of their battle in the book, that involved fighting for days and reducing a part of the mountain to rubble.

Anyway, the whole argument is stupid, particularly in relation to a supposedly eastern setting, where the distinction between punching stuff and doing some fancier stuff with no non-magical equivalent is completely different from the distinction between having overt, explicitly supernatural powers and not having them, and had been ever since Sun Wukong (who, accidentally, also could delete mooks by just conjuring storms or whatever magical SFX he pleased, but had to fight practically every serious opponent hand to hand).

[Thaluikhain]

At the risk of getting further off-topic, I think the ability to make items like purses talk and warn people about burrahobbits would be very useful.

[Chamomile]

In the movies, Gandalf does use his sword at all on the balrog, but he also calls a lighting bolt down on it. It's hardly out of the question that other overt magical powers were used as part of the same battle.

[Username17]

Public Health isn't flashy, but despite modest budgets it literally saves more lives than all other medical disciplines combined. Influenza kills more people than firearms, and evidence based food safety standards save more lives by themselves than all the police forces together. I don't really know what the vague "kingdom prosperity" magic powers actually do in Tolkien-land, but Tolkien himself seemed to think they were a pretty big deal and there's plenty of room for that kind of effect to be larger in aggregate than any reasonable amount of pyromancy. If you have kingdom management and army generaling going on, then there's actually plenty of place for semi-mystical leadership abilities to be real good.

But yeah, back onto the more pressing concerns. The L5R decision to use animal clans rather than real world peoples or made-up words you probably wouldn't remember was inspired. That worked well. And while L5R obviously didn't invent the concept (it's been used in Shaw Brothers movies for decades), it was effective for a game setting.

The issues that L5R and Avatar have as RPG settings are quite similar. Here are the key points that I think both settings don't hit:

• You need more than 4 character types.
• You need the expectation that characters of different types will work together closely.
• You need to have all of the character types be plausibly on Team Protagonist.

You can't have "Rat Clan Lands" where everyone is Rat Clan any more than you can have an Earth Nation where everyone is an Earth Bender. It's fine to have Rat Clan and Boar Clan, but people of both clans have to exist in positions of power in the same cities and people of both clans have to get together in adventuring groups that pursue joint goals.

-Username17

[shinimasu]

Would Legend of Korra's model of a post-clan integrated world be more useful when looking for a setting that does Asian fantasy without the rigid oil and water dynamics of Fire Benders vs Everyone Else? It seems like all you need is just a premise where maybe the time when things were that strict is still in the recent-but-distant past so everyone still has a strong sense of clan identity but cranes are also marrying scorpions and no one under 50 really flinches at it.

[Username17]

Would Legend of Korra's model of a post-clan integrated world be more useful when looking for a setting that does Asian fantasy without the rigid oil and water dynamics of Fire Benders vs Everyone Else? It seems like all you need is just a premise where maybe the time when things were that strict is still in the recent-but-distant past so everyone still has a strong sense of clan identity but cranes are also marrying scorpions and no one under 50 really flinches at it.

Legend of Korra's model is clearly made to make storytelling easier, which happens in all ways to line up with making a better RPG setting. I have a lot of reservations about Legend of Korra, but almost all of it is attributable to plotting, which in turn is apparently largely attributable to the fact that the number of episodes in the season was being radically changed while the season was being made. But also because there were some genuine disagreements about where the story was going and you had episodes literally walk back declarations of other episodes.

Anyway, while that's true, you don't actually need to have the clans have been regionally segregated particularly recently. Ideally the clans are like ethnicities in American cities - where the "heritage" part is distant enough that it's not really an issue but you still have family contacts and specialty food and stuff.

So it's good if being a member of the Boar Clan means that if you run into a random Boar Clan merchant that you're probably like 4th cousins or something. But it's bad if there's any reason that being a member of the Boar clan means that people would find it in any way weird for you to be a co-worker with a member of the Serpent Clan.

The fact that the regional Daimyo is a member of one of the clans can be important without that having any special expectation that characters who aren't of that clan wouldn't be working for them.

-Username17

[deaddmwalking]

It's time that we address the elephant in the room. Actually, not specifically an elephant, but any real world animal.

Assuming a fantasy world with Kirins and Dragons and stuff, does crab and scorpion make sense? At some point you'd think that real world animals would stop mattering when you've got fantastic beasts that are better in every way you could possibly care about and you know where to find them.

[Longes]

It's time that we address the elephant in the room. Actually, not specifically an elephant, but any real world animal.

Assuming a fantasy world with Kirins and Dragons and stuff, does crab and scorpion make sense? At some point you'd think that real world animals would stop mattering when you've got fantastic beasts that are better in every way you could possibly care about and you know where to find them.

The answer is simply and obviously yes.

Firstly, Putting an animal on your heraldry doesn't make that animal literally connected to you. In L5R every clan is named after an animal their founder deity liked and sought to emulate, except for Dragon clan where Togashi is an actual dragon. But scorpion clan doesn't have an affinity for scorpions and ki-rin don't give the Unicorn clan any special favor. William the Conqueror had lions on his crest, that didn't make him a master lion tamer.

The second point is that the animals get chosen as symbols because of association with their attributes, not because of their power. In L5R the Phoenix clan reveres the phoenix's honor and insight, not its ability to burninate ten men at once.

Thirdly, just because you have fantasy animals doesn't mean mundane animals are less special. One of the better-known L5R tales featuring ki-rin is that of a ki-rin getting trolled and murdered by a scorpion for shits and giggles.

[Username17]

It's time that we address the elephant in the room. Actually, not specifically an elephant, but any real world animal.

Assuming a fantasy world with Kirins and Dragons and stuff, does crab and scorpion make sense? At some point you'd think that real world animals would stop mattering when you've got fantastic beasts that are better in every way you could possibly care about and you know where to find them.

There are certainly ways you can make it make sense. But whether it makes sense or not, it's factually correct that calling something "Lion Clan" is good world building and calling something "Dragon Clan" is shit world building.

Whatever special language you use, whether they are re-purposed English words or borrowed Chinese words or just straight up made up word, they need to have consistent meaning. If you're going to use the names of beasts as an adjective to define the ethnicity of characters, you'd better be sure that none of those beasts are magical beasts that might themselves be characters. The idea of saying "Togashi is a Dragon Dragon Samurai" makes me physically ill. It's fucking unacceptable for the adjective "Dragon" to refer to a Clan Affiliation and to a Race where individual characters might have one or the other or both. It's just fucking awful.

Which brings us to the next point, which is that if you're going to have beast folk, they should be considered honorary members of whatever clan their animal type is. The Nezumi are honorary members of the Rat Clan. Tengu should be considered members of the Raven Clan. Naga should be considered members of the Serpent Clan. Bandar should be considered members of the Monkey Clan. And so on and so on. Because again, saying "He's a Snake Samurai, but not that kind of Snake Samurai, the other thing that's a Snake Samurai" makes me want to punch a wall.

-Username17

[Chamomile]

One of the worst things about Tomb of Annhilation was their insistence on using bizarre fantasy animals nobody had ever heard of for their trickster gods. What otherwise would've been a pantheon with internal rivalries who could've provided a reasonably compelling backdrop for the final stages of the adventure were instead impossible to keep straight because no one could remember what a jaculi or a zorbo is.

[Dean]

I think Clans should in general be a statement about a persons bloodlines and culture but they should also refer to a specific organization with specific goals. It should be something like the difference between being a Sicilian and a member of the Sicilian Mafia. A random person who's a member of the Scorpion clan isn't any sneakier than anyone else he just eats lots of fish based dishes and cares more about Scorpion myths and culture heroes. But "The Scorpion Clan", meaning a much smaller organized group of powerful Scorpion Clan members who pursue objectives to further their own interests and the interests of "The Scorpion Clan" at large can and absolutely should have powerful identifying characteristic like probably being an assassin.

The importance and cultural weight of being a clan member seems like it would vary enormously between one person and the next and that difference seems to map exactly to whether they're a part of the clan in the extended family sense or if they're part of the Clan in the headquarters and inner leadership sense.

That way you can have it be known and true that Rat Clan is full of thieves but no one has a problem hiring a Rat clan butler because this butler is not a member of the organized leadership of the Rat Clan which does in fact train and employ lots of thieves.

[OgreBattle]

Clans seem too tied to absolute loyalty, even if you do something different when I hear 'clan' I think of a social/family/political organization like sengoku warlord factions and yakuza.

I could see a replacement being 'cult' or religious affiliation. So you can be from not-China, give offerings at your local fox shrines, then travel to not-Japan and give offerings to the local fox shrine that does things somewhat differently but you're all part of the fox cult.

You can (and probably should) associate different shrines with different professions or aspects that are relevant to your story. Like Fox god Inari is a patron of some sword smiths and farmers and so on.

You can then have certain clans (as in a faction to belong to) venerate certain gods or prefer certain shrines, but the shrine they venerate can be venerated by outsiders too.

In dynastic political hijinks Chinese history you've got Daoist, Buddhist, Confucian groups with their own shrines and temples who vie for political influence over the emperor and the hearts of the common folk.

[FatR]

English translations of Chinese fantasy typically use the word "sect" to describe associations of non-blood-related practitioners of whatever gives the chosen few magic in their particular setting.