Trying to tie Earthdawn to Shadowrun got a few diehard fans super interested, which was fun for a while, but didn't actually add anything to the game (other than games are intended to be fun).
The systems were very different, the magic was different, the races were different, the premise is different... Saying the story ends with "then nothing changed and Earth became the Earth you know today" just means you can't make any lasting changes. Now that the properties are separate, they'll hopefully be able to develop more.
Earthdawn
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Nothing I've said refutes myself. I only have two points:FrankTrollman wrote:You seemed to be busily self refuting your own statements as hard and fast as you could.
1) The historical record is incredibly sparse, and it's not difficult to make a secret history that fits it with plausible deniability.
2) Earthdawn didn't do that.
No. Proto-germanic tribes in Northern Europe left historical and archeological evidence, and Romans left histories that said Rome was sacked by dudes who came from the North. Occam's razor says the dudes who came from the North were the dudes who lived in the North, but Occam's razor also says demons don't exist. I can literally just say Vandals = demons, Lugii = proto-germanic tribes and my secret history is close enough to actual history to actually be called a secret history. Is it water tight? Almost certainly not. Will it pass willing suspension of disbelief? Almost certainly yes.FrankTrollman wrote:The Vandals did leave historical and archeological evidence of their presence and of their passing. Obviously the archeological and historical record would be different if the Vandals were an army of demons. Because obviously.
There are innumerable "secret histories" about the JFK assassination and that has video evidence from less than 100 years ago. And the majority of them are completely plausible if you ignore obvious counter arguments like "that is a work of fiction" and "time travel isn't possible". But in a fictional narrative where time travel is possible JFK shooting himself for the good of the timeline fits enough facts to suspend disbelief and create a secret history.
There's actually a lot of room for secret histories in the fossil record because, as I said before, the fossil record is incredibly sparse. Lost cultures don't have to leave no evidence they just have to leave evidence consistent with "Seven teeth, five hand and foot bones, and a partial femur". The fact that Earthdawn didn't pass this incredibly low bar is just further evidence for your own theory that Earthdawn was actually some dude's homebrew D&D setting and "actually, it's a secret history of Shadowrun" was stapled on near the end of the project.
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deaddmwalking
- Prince
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- Joined: Mon May 21, 2012 11:33 am
It is difficult to make a GOOD secret history with plausible deniability.
It's a fact that certain people are going to have more trouble with verisimilitude than others - some people will be just fine with giant hamsters side-by-side with Roman legions or some such, but many are not. And fundamentally it is CONSTRAINING. If you have an awesome idea but it is impossible to explain in a way that is consistent with what we THINK WE KNOW about history, that's a problem - but one that is easily solved by setting your story somewhere where nobody knows the actual facts (like in a fictional world).
It's a fact that certain people are going to have more trouble with verisimilitude than others - some people will be just fine with giant hamsters side-by-side with Roman legions or some such, but many are not. And fundamentally it is CONSTRAINING. If you have an awesome idea but it is impossible to explain in a way that is consistent with what we THINK WE KNOW about history, that's a problem - but one that is easily solved by setting your story somewhere where nobody knows the actual facts (like in a fictional world).
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If you're willing to have your secret history far enough in the past, then you can hide the evidence of almost anything. Although at that point it's so disconnected from any human history that it might as well just be set on a different world.
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Thaluikhain
- King
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- Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2016 3:30 pm
While I don't think the Vandals works as secretly being demons or anything, you might get away with the Sea People who attacked Egypt millennia ago being demons, in that they are obscure and modern historians argue about where they came from.
OTOH, they are probably obscure enough that most players haven't heard of them and thus don't care anyway.
OTOH, they are probably obscure enough that most players haven't heard of them and thus don't care anyway.
The coolest thing Earthdawn does is probably the way magic weapons and armor level up with you.
The stupidest (I would be surprised if it doesn't get houseruled constantly) thing I've seen in Earthdawn is the prices for improving magic items. Sure, starting at level 1 every time is the expectation, but you can easily come up with a way to start everyone at a higher circle level.
Each item has a maximum level. The cost to upgrade each level is based on what the maximum level is. Legend Point (XP) costs are 100, 200, 300, 500, 800...(add the previous 2 numbers). If an item can go up to level 4, you use that set. You start at 200 if it can go up to level 6, 300 if it can go up to level 8, and 500 if it can go up to level 10. That's a fairly massive penalty to pay for a weapon that won't be any better until at least level 5. At level 4 the costs are 1100, 1800, 2900, and 5700 for items which may be functionally identical, because some have more potential.
But surely more expensive items are more powerful? Nope, abilities are level-gated. Up to level 4 is stuff like +1 to a stat or +1 damage. More powerful abilities show up at level 5, and the best stuff comes online at level 7. And nothing is retroactive.
The stupidest (I would be surprised if it doesn't get houseruled constantly) thing I've seen in Earthdawn is the prices for improving magic items. Sure, starting at level 1 every time is the expectation, but you can easily come up with a way to start everyone at a higher circle level.
Each item has a maximum level. The cost to upgrade each level is based on what the maximum level is. Legend Point (XP) costs are 100, 200, 300, 500, 800...(add the previous 2 numbers). If an item can go up to level 4, you use that set. You start at 200 if it can go up to level 6, 300 if it can go up to level 8, and 500 if it can go up to level 10. That's a fairly massive penalty to pay for a weapon that won't be any better until at least level 5. At level 4 the costs are 1100, 1800, 2900, and 5700 for items which may be functionally identical, because some have more potential.
But surely more expensive items are more powerful? Nope, abilities are level-gated. Up to level 4 is stuff like +1 to a stat or +1 damage. More powerful abilities show up at level 5, and the best stuff comes online at level 7. And nothing is retroactive.