How did they make 4e treasure even more complicated than 3e?

[Fwib]

Better hope that your DM ignores the (apparent) rules and gives out treasure so that there is enough for everyone of appropriate level, and enough of the items are (by GM fiat) sufficiently class-specific that the group is forced to share them out 'properly'

[Talisman]

Better hope that your DM ignores the (apparent) rules and gives out treasure so that there is enough for everyone of appropriate level

Imagine...that's what my group does already.

It occurs to me that the real path to Wealth and Success in the world of 4e is as a magic item salesperson. You could quite easily pay more than the going rate of 1/6 value...say, 1/3 to 1/2. You could also sell for less than the standard 2x...say, 1.5x. This would still allow you to turn a tidy profit, and if the GM has any sense of real-world economics, other adventurers should begin seeking you out.
The only problem, I guess, would be avoiding retribution from the all-powerful Magic Item Sellers' Guild.

[Harlune]

The only problem, I guess, would be avoiding retribution from the all-powerful Magic Item Sellers' Guild.

Well, it would be your own fault for not paying your monthly fee for that special magic Keep PC's from Robbing or Killing Your Libertarian's Wet Dream Ass Field spell that they cast on every vender's store.

[Prak]

Except that really doesn't make any sense beyond a certain (and low) level, and the party can always do things in a clandestine fashion. If the merchant exists, and you can rob him without any moderate side effects, robbing him is really the way to go.

I wonder if they'll put Entice Gift in again... that's a fun one to pull in magic shops.

The fact that it screws over organic characters is secondary to the fact that is screws over ungrateful players.

Why does this call to mind my old monk that used a greataxe because it dealt more damage than his fists? That was actually something I walked into the game with, the dm fiatted it away because he thought it was stupid, which, in retrospect, it was.

Better hope that your DM ignores the (apparent) rules and gives out treasure so that there is enough for everyone of appropriate level, and enough of the items are (by GM fiat) sufficiently class-specific that the group is forced to share them out 'properly'

better hope everyone got a bag of holding from the local adventurer's guild at level one.

[JonSetanta]

The only problem, I guess, would be avoiding retribution from the all-powerful Magic Item Sellers' Guild.

Well, it would be your own fault for not paying your monthly fee for that special magic Keep PC's from Robbing or Killing Your Libertarian's Wet Dream Ass Field spell that they cast on every vender's store.

Remember that feat back in 3.0 "Tome and Blood" called Sanctuary Spell?
Hold Person and similar could be made effective in item shops as lower level spells, either put on a localized mini-mythal (haha) or readied in an unlimited use item activated by the owner's hand sign or vocal command.

But a extremely cautious merchant might instead want to Antimagic Field the entire shop since, you know, there are powerful magic items lying around.
If you think toddlers or drunks in a glass animal art shop is dangerous, try toddlers or drunks playing around with your Staves of Power or Necklaces of Fireballs.

[CatharzGodfoot]

How is anyone supposed to know if an item in an antimagic shop is a powerful artifact or a paperweight?

[Voss]

Because according to the new article on magic items, it only takes 5 minutes (a 'short rest') to identify an item. So you can just toy with it for a few minutes in a shop. Except for special exceptions, like cursed, nonstandard items and artifacts.

It also gives some numbers for costs of items if anyone wants to play with them- disenchanting into handwavium yields the exact same results as selling: 20%.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20080516a

Just at a glance, it takes 25 +1 flaming swords to make 1 +2 flaming sword, and you have to be 10th level to do it yourself. And this would be true for selling/buying or disenchanting and enchanting. And since you just can't get a pile of low level items to disenchant... well.
Though it implies that you can use gold or handwavium interchangeably when enchanting things yourself.

And player crits are going to be... rather large as you go up in level.

[Talisman]

Just at a glance, it takes 25 +1 flaming swords to make 1 +2 flaming sword, and you have to be 10th level to do it yourself.

Ah, yes. Makes perfect sense now. :
After all, you certainly wouldn't equip your fellow PCs, your cohorts, your hirelings, and assorted allies with those 25 flaming swords...when you could trade them all in for a mighty +1 to hit and damage!

Maybe the real route to power is to simply hand out your weenie items to slightly-lower-level NPC adventurers...the loss of 1/5 cash will be offset by the gratitude of people not having to pay the exhorbitant prices of the Magic Item Sellers' Guild.

Which is more dangerous: one Ultimate Badass, or 25 Not-Quite-Ultimate-But-Extremely-Dangerous Badasses?

[SunTzuWarmaster]

This "you don't get items you don't care about" thing is really driving me nuts with 4e. For instance, in an old campaign, my party (and associated hirelings/army/fort) was assaulted by a drow raiding party. Although we had ~ +3 weapons, and they had +1, they were able to kill 2 named NPCs. However, we took their +1 weapons and equipped every mining guard with them. It's not like you can't find a use for 15 +1 weapons, and just because you don't care about them to fight with doesn't mean that they aren't directly tradable for the farmer's daughter as a sex slave / pack mule.

[Draco_Argentum]

In addition, each character can only activate a few different magic item powers in a given day, so the guy who brings a loaded pack full of flashy items doesn’t get as much bang for his buck.

This is going to make quite a difference to the winning strat people have been touting.

[Leress]

In addition, each character can only activate a few different magic item powers in a given day, so the guy who brings a loaded pack full of flashy items doesn’t get as much bang for his buck.

This is going to make quite a difference to the winning strat people have been touting.

Link please?

[MartinHarper]

Does anyone know what real historical markup rates were like on buying and selling? My gut instinct is that the 4e x6 markup is more realistic than the 3e x2 markup. Points of light is hardly a capitalist's "ideal market".

[Username17]

Historically there was no such thing as a markup because the idea of fixed value currency comes in several hundred years after the development of firearms. Currencies were just guaranteed metal purities and weights, and everything was handled as a form of barter. And as you know, there is only one rule in Bartertown: you break a deal, you spin the wheel.

-Username17

[Voss]

Just at a glance, it takes 25 +1 flaming swords to make 1 +2 flaming sword, and you have to be 10th level to do it yourself.

Ah, yes. Makes perfect sense now. :
After all, you certainly wouldn't equip your fellow PCs, your cohorts, your hirelings, and assorted allies with those 25 flaming swords...when you could trade them all in for a mighty +1 to hit and damage!

Maybe the real route to power is to simply hand out your weenie items to slightly-lower-level NPC adventurers...the loss of 1/5 cash will be offset by the gratitude of people not having to pay the exhorbitant prices of the Magic Item Sellers' Guild.

Which is more dangerous: one Ultimate Badass, or 25 Not-Quite-Ultimate-But-Extremely-Dangerous Badasses?

In 4e, assuming everyone is within a reasonable amount of levels of you? 25 fairly competent guys. At least, as long as they aren't minions. But it won't be because of the extra +1 to hit and damage.

[JonSetanta]

How is anyone supposed to know if an item in an antimagic shop is a powerful artifact or a paperweight?

Ask the vendor.
Or check the label on the shelf, yarharhar.

Wait. Why would merchants be selling powerful artifacts?
I was thinking in a sense that tiny trinket items like potions, +1 bonuses, "weapon crystals" and expendables would be mass-produced in any dynamic, competent, well-off magical society.
Just like you don't try every device in a Best Buy, not everything would be all "Here try a free sample of our Spider Climb arm patch!"

But yes as Voss mentioned 5 minutes will tell you all you need to know, and that's fine by me. Identify was such a waste of time, even with me as DM, that my friends and I assumed anyone with previous exposure to similar items could identify them in a matter of minutes (might have been an untrained Spellcraft/Intelligence check, not sure)

Of all utmost importances I shall state once more: non-casters must be able to create magic items for their own class in the least. Currently in 3.x with warriors relying on the mages for every sword and suit, I will not be very pleased in 4e if that Sacred Cow is kept alive.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Seriously, the ancient dwarven ritual to produce the hammer that Wulfar wields should be doable ingame.

Agreed.

[Voss]

Its quite possible that rituals can be taken by anyone (and enchant is a ritual). Not sure if you'll have to burn a feat to do it, but probably.

I think the preview on rituals is up late next week, but given the way some of these preview articles have gone, its a crapshoot if there will actually be useful information.

Here's a fun wacky fact. The first module (really 1/3 preview material, all of two weeks in advance because of the way they compacted then buggered up the release schedule), mentions 3 rituals: Raise Dead, Cure Disease and... Gentle Fucking Repose. Teh Powah!

[Koumei]

Identify was such a waste of time

I think even WotC figured that one out - the Dragonfire Adept in "Fanboy Magic" can take an Invocation which is Detect Magic, except as a full-round action, can end the effect and Identify something. So if you had one of those as a follower or something (1st or 2nd level is all that's needed), then it takes 12 seconds to identify something.

I want to see something on the addictiveness of magic potions. Adventurers raiding magic item vendors to get all the potions of Haste and Bull's Strength, and addicts intentionally doing stunts that cause injuries so they can get their fix of Cure Moderate Wounds.

[Draco_Argentum]

This is going to make quite a difference to the winning strat people have been touting.

Link please?

Voss' link, the paragraph just before the heading "Magic Items"

[Edit]Frigging tags.[/Edit]

[name_here]

Actually, if i understand points of light correctly, the source of the items must be from monster civilizations, because humanity doesn't seem coherent enough for mass producing magic items, unless they reduced the time it takes. this, naturally, makes very little sense when combined with the omnipotent magic item sellers guild.

you see, if somthing is hard to get, that inflates values in the market for it. so, a +1 rapier is worth quite a bit, and can be bought for around 1.5 times that bit, because going into the magic item shop buissness is risky too, since instead of putting, "magic item shoppe" on your sign, you might as well say, "low-magic bandit target."

also, since anyone in the magic item shop must be hardcore enough to beat off bandits, it stand to reason that they are high-CR.

[Talisman]

Actually, if i understand points of light correctly, the source of the items must be from monster civilizations, because humanity doesn't seem coherent enough for mass producing magic items.

Of course! All (or nearly all) the magic items are made by monsters! Good job WotC; it's...

...what's the word I'm looking for? Brilliant? Stupid? Visionary? Insane?

...I know it's one of those.

[Jerry]

I'll pick "Insane," because it takes out some (under-used) character concepts : Gnome inventor, mad alchemist, forge master that makes kewl swords, etc.

[name_here]

I'll pick "Insane," because it takes out some (under-used) character concepts : Gnome inventor, mad alchemist, forge master that makes kewl swords, etc.

no, it isn't impossible to have those, they just live in the few and far between fortresses, and no one can drag their wares out to the tiny villages. plus, there aren't enough of them to mass produce magic items in quantities large enough to mass-distribute them even if they could get them out of the fortresses.

[JonSetanta]

Actually, if i understand points of light correctly, the source of the items must be from monster civilizations, because humanity doesn't seem coherent enough for mass producing magic items.

Of course! All (or nearly all) the magic items are made by monsters! Good job WotC; it's...

...what's the word I'm looking for? Brilliant? Stupid? Visionary? Insane?

...I know it's one of those.

... obvious.

There they go again, drawing imaginary lines in the grey area of defining monster from PC.

[Absentminded_Wizard]

So if the monsters have 90% of the magic items, how did they manage not to wipe out the rest of the humans, elves, dwarves, etc.?