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tussock
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Post by tussock »

See, Tiefling art in 4e, it's not just that they dumped the rather eclectic nature of Tiefling appearance in Planescape and 3e, with their range of identical to human all the way to cloven hooves and vestigial wings.
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And were often a bit succubus/incubus, because of course they are. I mean, sometimes when you work off DiTerlizzi's art, you gotta thicken it a bit, but ... 4e Tieflings have a tail thicker than their thigh, often emerging at quite an angle from just below their ribcage, because it's too fucking long and would drag on the ground otherwise.
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That's the spinal column! It should replace the coccyx, and the asshole is going to need shifted, and ... also the hips, like, there's just not room for a tail that big in a biped, it just doesn't fucking work. It's like a sauropod tail, but just stuck on any old place.

Not to mention the balance, that thing must weigh up like 10kg, it's huge, and there is no way that guy's centre of mass is between his feet. And the space constraints, it's all of five foot long, heavy, unbalancing, just get it cut off so you can fight and run and shit. I mean, it can't have your spine in it, because your hips need that.

Plus! Those horns, that's where the brain goes. You know, the brain. Do I need to explain how important the brain is, how you can't just replace a third of it, symmetrical on both sides, with horn and just be fine like nothing happened. That's not fine, they need way more skull somewhere for their brain to be. Sheep are not smart, Ibex are not smart.

Plus! with the giant, highly flexible (it's like a gods damned snake) tail that is obviously prehensile, and you can't do anything with it! It's huge and the rules just ignore it. I hate that shit. D&D will, at least up to 2007, give things two horn attacks for having pointed horns, don't skimp on mechanics for stuff. Especially in an edition where they wanted a unique little mechanic for every race. It's right there, that gigantic fucking snake thing sticking out of their back.

Like a minor action encounter power, Str vs Fort, prone your opponent. Easy.

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Interesting both because some 4e art doesn't have the tail, at all, shows up without one quite often, half the tails that are here seem like they were pretty random late additions to the art, just strewn about any old place. Also that 5e vaguely fixed those anatomy problems, though quite how the legs and tail all fit together at the business end is anyone's guess.

PS: 4e's Tiefling is fluffed as being a lost empire, ... yes, like everyone else is a lost empire. The Dorfs, lost empire, Eladrin, lost empire, .... Half the stuff in the monster manual was at one point an empire, which then was lost.

But the Tiefling art and fluff changes are, all up, pretty minor compared to a lot of stuff in this game. Much bigger horns and the giant sketchy tail and now remnants of a fallen empire, yeah, that's pretty much every single thing in the game, got off light compared to giants and outsiders and elementals and goblins and gnolls and all the undead, ... carrion crawlers! Just this one's in the PHB art all over the place, puts it all up your face.

3.5 Dragonborn already had boobs, maglag, because they were not lizards, they were people who had been given a regular assortment of dragon characteristics by the god of good dragons. All those races in the race books were pointless and sad and very rarely used, even stuff like the Goliath that had something going for it didn't suddenly show up everywhere. I'm not sure anyone noticed 3.5 Dragonborn, other than to call them dragonboobs, which they were duly called all over again when 4e turned up.

They do have much longer snouts in 4e though, so they can leap snarling at the artist in half their pictures, mouth agape, as if to bite, with their bite attack they don't have.

Hmm. To me, WoW Night Elves are 100% a rip-off of 3e's Drow. The very long ears, the purple skin, the spiky armour, femdom stuff. Eladrin just, if anything they're a replacement for Aasimar. But there's no real direction, it's just a random grab bag.

I'm working on that Warcraft angle too. Really this game is the 3e miniatures game turned into an RPG, that's its closest ancestor. A lot of rules, art, already changed there, 28mm stuff needs thick, flattened horns and big snouts so you can see it and also not have it break off.

4e's got, like, a sprinkling of WoW in it, but it's very superficial, and none of it works the same at all. The artists might have been influenced more, but I don't think the designers had played much of it, anything they dragged in by name is all quite flawed, like they'd heard of it but that was about all.

Or they're just super shit at this rules thing, which, hmm. I don't think they're this bad, this development has gone very, very wrong, 4e got quite a bit better as it went on in parts, it's not really like other editions, the worst of it is right here.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

Gnome is a WoW race, which is the silly part of this whole thing.

The WoW echoes are reminiscent of people not really understanding wow either, because WoW characters have much more out of combat utility than 4e characters. Mages can just teleport to cities wherever they feel like it. Death knights can walk on water...whenever they feel like it. Druids can just shapeshift at will, including into utility forms like flight or underwater.

The 4e devs were absolutely terrified of noncombat abilities to the point that when familiar rules came out they explicitly said your familiar wasn't allowed to interact with the real world, because fuck you.

I honestly do not understand the mindset of these people, but my guess is Dunning-Kruger all the way down.
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Post by RobbyPants »

Every gaming table has a story about how a clever use of an ability either saved the day or bypassed the whole adventure. These seem to be the most remembered stories. Apparently, the 4E devs hated that.
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Post by Username17 »

Tussock wrote:Hmm. To me, WoW Night Elves are 100% a rip-off of 3e's Drow. The very long ears, the purple skin, the spiky armour, femdom stuff. Eladrin just, if anything they're a replacement for Aasimar. But there's no real direction, it's just a random grab bag.
The Eladrin are Blood Elves. They look exactly like Blood Elves, and their back story that they are filled with even more magic and had to leave the magic land due to excessive magic but are now on team good guy is exactly the backstory for the WoW Blood Elves if you were writing middle school quality fanfiction.

The remaining Elves have been made more like the WoW Night Elves, but there are certainly remnants of previous D&D Elfiness that you can detect. The 4e Eladrin simply are WoW Blood Elves. The only reason for the new race is that someone really liked Blood Elves in World of Warcraft.

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The strangest thing to me about the Dragonborn is that of all the Dragon races you could have picked, the Dragonborn are near the bottom in terms of history and cool factor. Like, the Lizardfolk and Draconians are so much cooler. If you said "It's Dungeons & Dragons, people want to play Dragons" why not give them some raptile races with a bit of fucking history?

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Post by maglag »

FrankTrollman wrote: The strangest thing to me about the Dragonborn is that of all the Dragon races you could have picked, the Dragonborn are near the bottom in terms of history and cool factor. Like, the Lizardfolk and Draconians are so much cooler. If you said "It's Dungeons & Dragons, people want to play Dragons" why not give them some raptile races with a bit of fucking history?
Although they did come out late in 3.5, Dragonborn did become pretty popular since they could be applied to any other race and got a fair bit of nice abilities and didn't have any RHD/LA. If you wanted to play a dragon-flavored anything without crippling yourself, dragonborn was by far the easiest way inside the rules.
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Post by Chamomile »

Re: Dragonborn, I think lizardfolk and draconians were disqualified for unrelated reasons. Lizardfolk are insufficiently draconic (no breath weapon or other connection to dragon color coordination), and draconians were disqualified by virtue of proximity to kender and gully dwarves having poisoned all things Dragonlance. I wasn't making a particular effort to keep my finger on the pulse of the greater tabletop community back in 2008, but I seem to recall kender hate was at its strongest at around that time. Dragonlance's actual fandom was pretty much completely withered, but the backlash against its stupider concepts was still in full swing.
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Post by FatR »

Honestly, a break with the tradition, and trying to update DnD to be more in-line with the currently popular fantasy products was not a bad idea.

But the new stuff they replaced old stuff with needed to not be shit. And over-enthusiastically aping WoW and WoW alone demonstrated shallowness of their thinking.
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Post by TiaC »

I liked 3.5 Dragonborn, but almost entirely due to the transformation. I wrote three backstories that hinged on it. One was an old wizard, long retired, who decided to undergo the ritual because it would make him young again, in exchange for having to fight evil. One was a former crusader who had been infected with lycanthropy and had transformed to overwrite it before it turned him evil. The last was from an evil culture, although I don't remember which one, so he transformed to break away from them.
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Post by jt »

Yeah, 3.5 dragonborn were popular over here too. First game of it I ever played had a dragonborn dragon shaman, so you can get more dragon in your dragon. I don't think anyone who liked the original wanted yet another lost empire though.

I like the idea of splitting elves into high elves and wood elves, since that's the core split in elf fans I've seen (woodsy vs better than you), and I don't mind stealing a name from some less popular piece of D&D history to make it happen. Does 4E claim the eladrin are from a lost empire? High elf fans are like the only people who actually want that sort of thing.

And I get why you'd include tieflings. They're demon people. A lot of the target audience are teenagers. Makes sense to me.

These are all decisions where I can imagine someone with a decent understanding of marketing, the game's history and brand, what the audience wants, and what's possible within the IP - that is, someone competent - would create an outline that looks like this. I think where it falls flat is that whoever was writing flavor text was asleep at the wheel and going on full autopilot. And the artists (and art directors) were clearly looking at more WoW than D&D, so you get things like copying the weird anatomy of the dranei onto tieflings. Or maybe tussock's miniatures hypothesis is what caused it.

Actually, a lot of these art direction decisions make sense if you're trying to design for a 3D character's silhouette, which is a good idea for both videogames or miniatures. But D&D art is all static images and imagination, so there are a lot of good shortcuts you can take. Pokemon has some of the best silhouettes out there but the difference between grimer and muk is that muk happens to have its hand raised.
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Post by OgreBattle »

"Has demon blood" is broad enough to include more than one specific look. So some tieflings having goat legs, some having man legs, some having Etna tails is all reasonable.

On scaly dudes to play as, I lean more towards "monster" than "six pack furry". Like Warhammer saurus and skinks, hunched over, relatively short legs for a long core and arms. Draconians also had the benefit of very very nice Keith Parkinson artwork and were like 28mm heroics in proportion.

If you're going full humanoid tall upright stature I prefer a humanoid face with horns and fins and whatnot around the side or replacing primate ears.
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Post by Ignimortis »

OgreBattle wrote:"Has demon blood" is broad enough to include more than one specific look. So some tieflings having goat legs, some having man legs, some having Etna tails is all reasonable.

On scaly dudes to play as, I lean more towards "monster" than "six pack furry". Like Warhammer saurus and skinks, hunched over, relatively short legs for a long core and arms. Draconians also had the benefit of very very nice Keith Parkinson artwork and were like 28mm heroics in proportion.

If you're going full humanoid tall upright stature I prefer a humanoid face with horns and fins and whatnot around the side or replacing primate ears.
So basically FF XIV Au'ra? That's a neat look, I guess, and they actually work well enough for Tieflings too.
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Post by GâtFromKI »

Yesterday's Hero wrote:
jt wrote:I never noticed that the penalty damage for ignoring a mark isn't as much as a striker's damage. That's hilarious. That's awful.
The mark doesn't penalize damage, it is a -2 penalty on attack rolls. Still awful, though.
It's a bit more complicated than that.

Every Defender has a way to mark opponents and, you're right about it, the effect of the mark itself is a -2 penalty to hit anyone else. But every defender has also an interruption to punish anyone who defy his mark (ie, a marked opponent who attack someone else); and then there are the encounter and daily power, some of those may start with "when an opponent you marked attack someone else" or a rider like "if the target attacked someone else in the last turn" or "until end of turn, if the target attack someone else". So in the end, it's not uncommon for a defender to have a high damaging combo on people ignoring his mark - but as I said, I don't remember the details of my combo, but it was less than the rogue's combo, so whatever.

----

If you think about it, this mark mechanic is a strong mechanic.

As Tussock explained, too many interruptions break the flow of the game and is awful design. In PF2Playtest, there's a complaint about the interruptions being punitive instead of strategy-inducing: since you have no idea if the enemy has an interruption and what is the trigger, you act as if he doesn't have any (so no strategy induced) and sometime, the opponent says "haha you activated my trap card" and punish you for doing some mundane shit.

In the other hand, with mark, you know the opponent has now an interruption with trigger "you attack anyone else". You don't know what the interruption will be, you're not even sure it can activate at range, but you know the trigger. It doesn't affect the flow of the game that much, because you don't wait after each action to see if the monster can interrupt you: only if you activate the trigger (and you know the trigger) you ask "OK, what does he do ?". Mark is really an elegant mechanic to have an interruption with the target knowing what to do to avoid it.

Of course, when the 4e has an elegant mechanics, the implementation is pure shit. See also: parangon classes, roles...
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Post by tussock »

So many distractions. WoW Blood Elf are just regular 3e Elfs. Warcraft3 is 2002 and WoW is 2004 and it all completely just rips off 3e art for it's new things.

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That's 3e's no-pupil angelblood guy, and he totally has pointy ears, that's your Eladrin. He looks like he does because he looks like a 3e Eladrin from the same book. Elf-angels is the only place they had left for an angel-touched race too, and then they stuck them all in the Feywild, all the way up to the Bralani and Ghaele.

Yes, there are lots of Lizardfolk types around. Kobolds started being little dragons in 2000 with a mild makeover, having Lizardfolk become little dragons in 2008 with a mild makeover, seems fine. They don't suit being +Str, +Cha, but neither do Dragonborn.

Anyway, Defenders. They don't work. The two Fighters here are either action economy junkies, or punching bags, while Paladins split into a punching bag or a Leader type.

In World of Warcraft, the principle of character niche protection is reasonably simple, there is none.
  • Builds for each class choose between DPS/Healer/Tank, this is gear and hotkey based changes, so you can respec.
  • Every class can be a DPS, because that's what most people want to be, and yet people are picky about what class they play while doing it.
  • Half the classes can be Healers, because the party needs at least one healer. Healing has thematically appropriate fluff.
  • Half the classes can be Tanks, because the party needs at least one tank. Tanking has thematically appropriate fluff.
  • Classes that can't Tank or Heal can all Scout or Pull, and so can some of the others. This is MMO terms for finding and drawing out some monsters without activating everything for miles around.
  • Every class has Crowd Control, just against different numbers of targets, by different means, and often thematically limited. This means calming mobs so they will not attack if no one attacks them, or at least kiting them away in a big loop.
  • All the mobs regenerate pretty fast, so only the ones you're focused on are gunna go down, incidental damage elsewhere never really adds up in fights you care about.
Then you let the Tank grab Aggro and take all the damage, the Healer gets a simple and efficient single-target job, and the DPS all plink away to avoid stealing Aggro. Enough control is established to keep the Tank up and hold any fast stragglers still long enough for the Tank to collect them. When the target monster runs, everyone nukes it to avoid it waking friends. Then you wait for all your timeouts to finish as the next mob is targeted.

A 4e D&D model for that could be your scout finds you a fight, earns you surprise or initiative, then your high-defence guy with a shield compels the monsters to attack him only, while the healbot keeps that PC up and active so their compulsions stay refreshed, and everyone else carefully avoids aggro and holds the nova damage for when the monster tries to run away and wake up the whole dungeon. Whoever has appropriate controller powers might keeps a few monsters stunlocked until the party is ready for them.

And none of that happens in 4e. 4e Defenders are not Tanks, 4e Leaders are not MMO-style Healers, 4e Strikers are not holding back for a late Nova or pacing themselves to avoid drawing aggro like DPS do. 4e Controllers are not doing Crowd Control at all, no one is, because there's no wake up function for being attacked.

And they did not mean them to work like that. As much as the terminology here is copying MMOs, the mechanics just aren't. It's not that they couldn't figure out how to count threat to see who drew aggro, it's that they thought of all that stuff as the DM's job, and they obviously didn't want tanking to be anything like reliable, nor healing to be unlimited on one. They rejected how MMOs function, and gave us 4e instead.

But even in 4e, it's pretty simple to give those four types of classes something to do that mean you need one of each. If they wanted us to have 1-2 Defenders, 1-2 Strikers, 1 Leader, and 1 Controller, like they say right here in this book, they can do this, as an example.

Defender: nearby allies gain power bonus to defences, at-will. "Shielding blow".
Striker: targeted enemies take penalty to defences, at-will. "Crippling strike".
Controller: areas of enemies take penalty to attacks, at-will. "Entanglement".
Leader: whole team gains power bonus to attacks, at-will. "Prayer".

Or, like encounter spells that have sustain-standard, it works much the same, but can limit unneeded weirdness out of combat. Parcel it out to suit your desired adventuring day.

Two Defenders can then help each other, or help a spread out party, two Strikers can work on one lowering defences and the next bringing the damage, then swapping as the per encounter damage powers run low. Two Leaders don't stack at all, the Leader is already helping himself. More controllers could work but only against much bigger fights.

And that they fucked up. You don't need Defenders, because one of them maybe giving a monster -2 to hit, it doesn't matter, from there they can never match the Strikers, and they don't do anything else.

Instead of any of that, we got "Leaders", for both the PC classes and the monster manual as (leader) subjobs, which follow the rules of D&D Minis "Commanders" from 2003. Exactly those rules, even though they don't fit here. They give bonuses to allies nearby and Commanders can't normally gain Commander bonuses (some much weaker commanders can).

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Aside: Minions also started in D&D Minis (well, for D&D products, at least), they're 5hp monsters that do 5 damage (everything does damage divisible by 5, so 5hp always dies in 1 hit), and they're often free with other things, and they don't count toward the normal unit limit. And who designed the 2003 D&D Minis game that sold so well that he got put in charge of 4e development? That's right, Rob Heinsoo did.
The 1-liner descriptions, the everything-right-here stat block, the barely recognisable powers that all do damage with a rider effect, nothing happening outside the skirmish game, all D&D Minis, the only thing I'm missing on that is was it Heinsoo who decided that was the way to go, or some higher corporate accountant looking at Minis sales vs D&D sales trends in about mid-2005.

Whatever it was, 4e doesn't even work as a fancy D&D Minis game, it would've been a bad direction anyway, but the execution was terrible.

Fighters, it turns out, will be tomorrow. They can at least protect any ranged strikers, if they are in a 10' wide corridor, until something puts one of many conditions on them, and only if they can hit the monster, which ... yeah. One thing they can't do is actually make the monsters attack them, though quite often the monsters will and then they die. This game, eh.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

The amusing thing about tanks v DPS in wow is that a DPS will fucking die if they pull aggro, full stop. 4e strikers are fairly durable due to padded sumo and interrupts, but the same things mean you can't burn your cooldowns to kill enemies before they escape and raise the alarm. It's less an MMO battle and more a JRPG random encounter.
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Post by Username17 »

While Heinsoo was a dude in D&D Miniatures, the important part for Minions is his work on Feng Shui in the 1990s. That game has "Mooks" who are unnamed characters that can be removed in a single attack by hitting their arbitrary defense value and don't track hit points. It's an RPG about action movies, and the conceit usually works pretty well, with the caveat that elite mooks slow the game to a crawl and are really frustrating and the additional caveat that some players feel viscerally offended that Big Bruiser characters who have big powerful attacks that miss a lot are actually terrible at Mook fighting. But for the most part, it's a very functional and in-genre mechanic that goes over well and does its job. These Mooks are fucking exactly the Minions from 4th edition.

And in 4th edition, they are a trainwreck. I have nothing nice to say about them, even though it is the same mechanic.

The key is that Feng Shui is a game which functionally does not have an advancement scheme. I mean, technically it does, but don't use it ever. People play Feng Shui as one shots. And in a one shot game, there are indeed some enemies that are conveniently simplified to one-shot enemies. But in a game that's supposed to have persistent worlds and character power growth and zero to hero shit going on, fucking none of that is OK.

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Post by maglag »

Is there any table tactical rpg that does the tank/healer/dps thing? Because in MMOs that's directly tied to having aggro mechanics for the enemies, but in basically all table tactical rpgs there's the human DM to decide who the enemies attack next.

Like in MMOs a PvE build will be completely different from a PvP build because fellow human players don't care about aggro.
CapnTthePirateG wrote:The amusing thing about tanks v DPS in wow is that a DPS will fucking die if they pull aggro, full stop. 4e strikers are fairly durable due to padded sumo and interrupts, but the same things mean you can't burn your cooldowns to kill enemies before they escape and raise the alarm. It's less an MMO battle and more a JRPG random encounter.
Heh, in WoW DPS/healer classes also have some tricks if the aggro goes the wrong way. WoW Rogues can go all dodgy for a few moments and WoW Paladin have their bubbles. It's not sustainable for a whole fight yes, but may be enough to get things back on track.
Last edited by maglag on Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by tussock »

Original D&D had DPS Wizards, Tank Fighters (in ablative form), and Healer Clerics. The reason the monsters had to hit the tanks was there was a lot of them and the corridor was 10' wide and leaving melee through them was simply not an option. You did lose Fighters over time though, poison saves and such.

Right, thanks for the comments/corrections all, as always any and all is appreciated, continuing the review. But one last interlude first.

The fights in 4e with unintelligent monsters are largely uninteresting. The DMG says they just attack the nearest person, or maybe whoever hit them last. There's not much to game there, and you don't even need Defender marks, because they do that themselves, they are largely immune to the very concept of the marking mechanic, though you can pull a bit of extra damage out of it.

The game itself is just asking you to balance out healing surge use, and there's only so much a few slides and conditions can trouble a very simple PC victory plan there if the fight is near enough to your level.

Where smart monsters come into it, the DMG suggests using the Soldiers or Brutes against ... the party Defenders. Which ....

There's a split here. If you do that, the Defender is a concept that, uh, mostly they get their ass kicked as a public service. They want shield AC or high Con or both.

But if you have the monsters not do that, and instead just swarm past and fucking nova-murder a Leader, or a Striker, or a Wizard, then the Defender can't do more than maybe hold one of them off, while taking not terribly much damage at all. shield AC and Con both are wasted.

There's groups of monsters suggest the bottom way, and groups suggest the top, but everything works much better at actually winning fights if they use the bottom, and I'm conflicted about sandbagging like that.

This game should expect the smart monsters to use good tactics. And it doesn't. It repeatedly tells you that smart monsters do stupid things to make Defenders work at all. And I hate that. There's no good thing to do there as a DM, it feels bad for the DM and ultimately the players understand there's sandbagging going on and they feel bad too.

Then if you don't sandbag, Defenders don't really work!

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Fighters can't respond to that sort of stuff anyway. Not only is it otherwise weak builds that can actually stop a rush past reliably, even in part, they're different to what you want vs dumb monsters. It's that the change from "hurty things pile on the Fighter" to "hurty things ignore the Fighter" is largely a matter of using both hands on a weapon or putting one on a shield.

And that's a thing Fighters can't do. The simplest of responses to things happening around them is beyond them. At first level, you have to pick if you want +1 to hit for always and forever using a shield, or +1 to hit for never using a shield at all, and untyped +1 to hit is huge in 4e.

4e class builds in general face this, but Fighter builds day one, basically get locked into one weapon/shield choice and soon are much worse with anything else.

:rant:
This shit still pisses me off. 1985's Unearthed Arcana for AD&D gave Fighters and Rangers weapon specialisation. But it was just to bump their attack and damage and rate of attacks up, and the only place to slip it in as an option was the weapon proficiency slots, as that was the only option Fighters got in AD&D.

It was supposed to be folded into the class for 2nd edition (along with tougher monsters to take some of the hits better). And it's still fucking here in 4th edition. The eclectic "Weapon Proficiency" abilities of 2e got replaced with Feats in 3e, still making you pick a one weapon to be good at (often just being good at using it one particular way!), and 4e fucking thinks this is what Fighters are! :disgusted:

Since fucking 2nd edition, the people who love Fighters even more than me, have been saying what they want from weapons is that you change your weapon to suit the circumstances, so you pull out a bow against the fliers, and a pick axe for the stone golem, and a crow's beak for the tin can, and a sword for cutting through the chaff, and a big shield against archers, ... and you can just use all of them because you're a fucking fighter! How the designers keep not hearing that is a mystery to me.

Though of course, the treasure system in 3e and 4e suck for people wanting an in-play weapon change option. :cry:
Anyway, their basic power, is they get a interrupt attack on marked things that shift away, and anything shifting or moving past that they hit, must end that move action immediately. They can also hit marked things that ignore them as a target, but it barely adds up. Mainly, they're trying to stop things getting past, and they're just not good at it, and even if it works it doesn't really help much.

The three builds are basically
[*]A bastard sword guy who is better at marking more enemies and following tricky ones around (smart monsters should be ignoring him as much as possible)
[*]A maul guy who hopes to eat a lot of party healing or have an unlimited supply of potions (he's a tar-baby ideally, but is mostly too easy to ignore or crush, either way).
[*]The Longtooth Shifter one, misses out on other things, but holding a Solo or Elite or even high level normal Soldier or Brute for a bunch of ranged Strikers and a Wizard is a functional piece if the DM won't give it to you for free. Plus Will defence.

They're extremely unresponsive to party composition, to monster types or behaviour or strength of the encounter, they have perhaps the least real options of almost any class because so much relies on their 2nd stat and on top of that their weapon/shield choice.

There's huge trap options because it offers you something for having Wis, and suggests a bit of Con, and you might try shooting a bow like the guy in the picture, and the Con build is very prone to either falling over because low AC or no one caring it's even there because can't hit often enough and no damage anyway. Plus, you might use a Dwarf!

You'd think the Con guy would get healer support, but that's needed far more on classes with less healing surges, if you can save a surge on a Rogue with a boost, you might get a bit further on without taking a long rest. Or just long rest always, and burn the healing potions to keep yourself in it. It does work as a basic attack target with like a Minotaur and enough shouty Warlords, but so do a lot of things.

How many healing potions you get to buy and carry, mmm, good luck there.

Their Prestigue Classes Paragon Paths are ...
Iron Vanguard who ... tries to help the poor Con fighter, but does so with low multipliers to weapon damage. :sad:
Kensai says "My weapon and I are as one" and gets bonuses to hit and damage and some more attacks. This is good. Random stacking +1 to hit is the business in 4e.
Pit Fighter is trying to help out the terrible Wis build by giving +Wis damage. Which, actually, helps quite a bit. 16th level, so, lotta not much happening to get there.
Swordmaster says you and your blade are one. Hmm. Mostly can get an encounter power back off a crit, which ... that's just cheesy enough to work, if someone gives you enough basic attacks between turns. Shame it's 16th level again, much better at 1st.

So they can build for damage and kinda suck at it, but maybe encourage things to hit them. Or they can build for attack generation, keep them mobile, work for maximum creatures marked. Or they can build for AC and single creature stopping odds in 10' wide corridors, which yeah, keep a big Brute off the low AC people mostly.

You need infinity potions and stupid monsters on the Con guy, you need terrain assistance or few opponents on the Wis guy, and you need interesting terrain and mobile monsters for the Dex guy. And they all need to start with 20 Str.
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Gods forbid anyone turns up with a ranged attack!

At mid levels when things all have over a hundred hit points, you can have 1[W] damage to creatures starting adjacent. A very high levels, long after the regular monsters have stopped appearing and it's all Solos and Elites, they give you a power to mark lots of monsters very easily. This game, man. All of it is bad.

They needed way better marking powers, they needed to be able to respec at all, they needed more options for self-healing for all the builds, and there was a lot more room for them having powers that actually pushed stuff around while still doing even modest damage, and maybe caused a few more conditions off their secondary stats, given how little damage they do.

And the entire concept of Daily Martial Exploits with you know "You crack your foe upside the head", it doesn't make any fucking sense for that to happen exactly once between long rests. There's not even the slightest attempt to explain any of that.

Plus there's obviously room for a proper Striker option on the two-handed split, where it drops their AC. I know they didn't want to do that, but they totally should have. Even in the way they split them it's so bland and ineffective.

Class rating: D. Minimal functionality, poor participation, often a drain on the group, dying is not a super-power.
PC, SJW, anti-fascist, not being a dick, or working on it, he/him.
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Yesterday's Hero
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Post by Yesterday's Hero »

I played 4e 3 times, always as a fighter. The first time was a one shot with a shitty DM, core only. Played a dragonborn.

The second time was with a much less shitty but still very inexperienced DM, he ran a short campaign (6-7 sessions). PHB2 had just come out and I played a Goliath. I only remember 2 encounters, one where I saved the party and one where I realized that defenders are shit.

I saved the party when we had to cross a corridor that had like 20 kobold minions on platforms set to throw spears at us when we appeared. I activated my racial power (DR 5 for 1 round) and triggered all the attacks of opportunity, receiving 0 DMG (kobold minions deal 5 DMG). On the next round I activated a fighter power that gave all adjacent allies my shield bonus to AC and protected them against a bunch of damage until we crossed the room.

I realized defenders where shit on a later encounter when we were surrounded by flaming skeletons. I had just received an armor that gave me both fire and necrotic resistance. I engaged one skeleton but it just ignored me (since it couldn't hurt me effectively) and focused on the DPS party members. I did paltry damage and couldn't even finish it on my own.

Looking back on it, the mark should work like the one on the Tome Knight, giving you a big bonus to dmg if the enemy doesn't attack you, rather than a paltry penalty to its attack roll. It even makes more sense flavorwise.

The last game was another one shot with the same character as last time (I think lvl 7). We had the “Enemies have ½ HP and deal x2 the damage” houserule. It was more fun but strikers dominated and I felt even more useless.
Did you ever notice that, in action movies, the final confrontation between hero and villain is more often than not an unarmed melee fight? It's like these bad guys have "Regeneration 50/Unarmed strikes".
Whiysper
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Post by Whiysper »

I do love how often we come down to:

"everything good about 4e was done better in the Tomes. Before 4e even dropped"

No sarcasm - it's good to see different approaches to the same basic problems, with the exception that one actually... like... worked.
CapnTthePirateG
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

The amusing thing about the pit fighter is that it's much better in the hands of a melee cleric who fights with Wis and weapons already. As I recall the Essentials cleric has a bunch of Wis powers that use weapons that you can pit fighter through.

It's a recurring theme in this edition, where the paragon paths supposedly custom-built for your class don't actually work well with it at all.
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Ghremdal
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Post by Ghremdal »

We played the heroic tier when 4e came out, and I played the bastard sword fighter. Also with a rock he picked up on the first adventure that he used to throw at the start of each encounter hoping to get a minion and thus show the absurdity that is 4e.

Anyway he was pretty effective and fairly sticky, in comparison to the rest of the party (though that could be explained by the fact I was the only one smart enough to put a 20 in the prime stat). That and the opportunity attacks work per opportunity, instead of per round.
pragma
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Post by pragma »

One note about the 1[W] aura of the fighter is that it was great at marking enemies. Anything you did damage to became marked, so the aura was a really important tanking trick. Similarly, the at will abilities that just poked adjacent enemies also helped the fighter distribute marks. I would have liked to see more high level sweeping strikes to help the fighter distribute marks further.

Of course, the fact the fighter got one reaction per round (which I think may have been unintentional in the 4e core book; I suspect some confusion between round and turn made it into the final draft) meant the fighter couldn't do much to act on his mark unless it was against a single target.
Ghremdal
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Post by Ghremdal »

Was it not that you had to attack to mark (but not hit), so the [1W] power did not mark (though the Come and Get It! power did)?

And I remember that as a fighter you could make a attack for every opportunity, per monster turn. So if you had 4 guys run past you, you got to make 4 opportunity attacks and if you hit that would stop their movement. It could be that I am mistake, but that is how I remember it playing.
Pariah Dog
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Post by Pariah Dog »

From the 4E PHB:

Code: Select all

You gain a bonus to opportunity attacks equal to your
Wisdom modifier. An enemy struck by your opportunity attack stops moving, if a move provoked the
attack. If it still has actions remaining, it can use them
to resume moving.
Come and get it was a 3 square AOE that moved targets 2 squares if they would end adjacent to you then hit them for 1W + stuff damage.

Edit: To show the absurdity of the AoO rules and minions, in one of the 4E games I played had a guy parked on the other side of a door and as the mindless minions came through, AoO chopped them to death.
Last edited by Pariah Dog on Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
pragma
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Post by pragma »

Ghremdal: You are right and I was wrong, you put up marks on attack and not on damage. I remember my players loving Come and Get It! + the aura, but had forgotten which of the two provided the mark.

Pariah: on 4e PHB p269 "you can take one immediate action per round" and on 4e PHB p266 "In a round every combatant takes a turn." So you only got one reaction/interrupt between your own turns. I think that was an obvious mistake because it renders defenders unusable, your murder conga line sounds like an improvement on the rules as written.
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