OSSR: Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords

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Ancient History
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OSSR: Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords

Post by Ancient History »

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Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords

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You'd think this literary allusion would be all over this book, but it's not.

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The actual front cover of Tome of Battle is extremely uninteresting and you wouldn't think this would be one of the most important and divisive books of 3.5.

AncientH

The request was made, and so we answer it. Not without a degree of trepidation; Frank and I already suffered through an OSSR of Tome of Magic, and this book is arguably worse in many ways.

Frank

The Tome of Battle is a shovelware project nominally written for Dungeons & Dragons 3.5 and released in August of 2006. It contains 3 character classes and a single newish resource mechanic, all compiled into a sprawling piece of text bloat used to fill up a 158 page hardback. But despite the fact that it contains very little in the way of what you could generously call content, it was hugely controversial and considered extremely important by D&D enthusiasts both at the time and in retrospect. Structurally, it looks very similar to any of a number of bullshit books from late in the 3.5 development cycle like Dungeonscape or Races of Destiny, but this one was different and everyone knew it – though it wasn't actually revealed why it was different for a couple of years.

The obvious backstory is that Dungeons & Dragons has operated with a “Linear Warriors / Quadratic Wizards” paradigm for so long that it is the actual source of that description. Every level the Fighter gets measurably but slightly better at stabbing fools in the face, while the Wizard learns new spells which are substantially more powerful but don't lose access to their old spells. This makes them gain power and versatility as they go up in level. And the spells at higher level aren't more powerful in the sense of “being slightly better with a sword” but in the send of “turning elephants into mice” type shit. And people who played D&D had various ways of coping with this fact, which in many ways included either denying this obvious fact or claiming that it somehow wasn't a flaw in the system. Tome of Battle presented a paradigm with Quadratic Warriors – characters who were skinned like Fighters but who got to learn new vistas of special powers in a conceptually and mechanically similar setup as the Wizards. Obviously this is a potential solution to the Linear Warriors / Quadratic Wizards problem, but you can imagine how people who had convinced themselves that the previous paradigm was good would flip their shit. A lot of shit was flipped when this book came out.

The less obvious backstory is that Tome of Battle was cobbled together from an early draft of 4th edition D&D that was then scrapped. There's a bit of the backstory here, but basically the lead designer (Richard Baker) and lead developer (Mike Mearls) of Tome of Battle were on the Project Orcus design team and in February of 2016 they decided to convert the prototype of the Fighter, Swashbuckler, and Paladin from that edition-under-development into their 3rd edition as the Tome of Battle's Warblade, Swordsage, and Crusader (respectively). Two months later, Mearls and Baker convinced the rest of the Orcus design team to scrap Orcus entirely, but they still went ahead and published the bits they'd co-opted into the Tome of Battle under their own names four months after that.

As you might imagine, Tome of Battle caused an incredible amount of controversy, much more than some random piece of decadent late period D&D 3.5 shovelware typically did. While the WotC forums had the occasional person who just couldn't shut up about Psionics or kept writing about Magic of Blue or whatever, but mostly those books got tossed into the pond, made a few ripples, and were mostly forgotten about except as dumpster diving fodder for obscure and dubious builds on the char-op forum. But Tome of Battle made big waves. It came out swinging with some slaughtering of some sacred cows in order to address actual known problems of D&D. But it was also weirdly clumsy.

The conversion to 3rd edition rules wasn't actually complete, and the whole book didn't quite gel. Also it was still a shovelware book that had expanded a design document that was maybe 30 pages at most to a sprawling 158 shelf breaker by filling it up with ramble text. There was certainly ample ammunition for the haters – but there was also ample ammunition for the supporters. The Orcus project was obviously concerned with addressing actual problems that D&D actually had – and even this watered down bit of castoffs shows that there was some real design going on in WotC R&D before they scrapped it all and made the trainwreck that was 4th edition D&D.

So as we go through this book, we'll try to highlight areas where the pedigree becomes obvious – rambletexts added to pad page count, pieces where the proposed mechanics weren't 100% converted to be 3.5 compatible, and glimpses into what the Orcus project might have delivered as a 4th edition of Dungeons & Dragons had the creators of this book not managed to convince the rest of the team to abandon the project and make a half-assed incomplete game with bad math in a tremendous hurry now that their entire design and development time was less than 2 years.
AncientH

Being a wizard is a power fantasy. The original concept of the mage in D&D was a bookish nerd whose vast intellect unlocked the ability to change the world around them - to restructure reality to suit their needs. And D&D delivered on that fantasy. There are relatively few high-level fighters in the NPC roster for the first three editions, but even a mid-level wizard could potentially dabble in things humans were not meant to know or breed red dragons and shih tzus together or something. Owlbears don't just happen: a wizard did it.

A wizard did it.

In the fantasy fiction that fed into D&D, warriors are usually killing evil wizards and sorcerers. Conan the Cimmerian made a habit of this, and he wasn't alone. Magicians were often allies or NPC-types rather than the main protagonists, because magic was usually mysterious and powerful and rare. This played into the power fantasy, and still does. So when D&D let players be wizards, they had an immediate issue: the balance point between what a fighter could do versus what a mage could do.

At the low-end, they tried to make the wizard weaker by giving them shittier attacks and fewer hitpoints. As thing progressed, fighters got more HP, better attack bonuses, sometimes access to fighter-only feats/proficiencies/etc. Every class could fight, but the Fighters were the best at fighting.

Well, nominally. Until the wizard could fry them before they could get close, or summon something that the fighter couldn't beat. Because the higher up you go in level, the greater the threats - and there are some things that can only take damage from magic. A magic weapon might help balance things out, but a Fighter is has to rely on luck for one of those to drop into their laps. The higher up you go in level, the worse the Fighter gets. Until at 21st level they get 3 hit points.

The magic-vs.-mundane fight is an old one in RPG circles; a lot of simulationist-minded types dislike the idea of mundanes needing magic to stay relevant...and it's not restricted to RPGs. Plenty of people wonder why the Avengers has a supersoldier, a god of thunder, a guy in power armor, a Hulk and...two human spies with some gadgets. There's a disconnect there, and not all the team members are able to contribute equally against all threats.

Which a lot of people are surprisingly okay with, to a point. That point is usually Superman. Once you have a character that is better at all the other characters at whatever it is they're supposed to do, you wonder why the hell you're here. Fighters don't want to just be the guys that pick up the kryptonite cursed items so the wizard doesn't have to do it. They want to contribute. And that's a tricky proposition, without nerfing wizards entirely - which is in part what Tome of Magic was trying to do: work on a way to have something that felt like a wizard but with less versatility and raw overpoweredness at high levels. The other side of the equation is to boost Fighters to the same point.

Earthdawn tried to get around it by giving everybody magical powers, and it worked okay. There was still a bit of a curve, especially at high Circles where the spells can get nuts, but it was an approach to a known problem.

This is another one.
Frank

After the un-numbered Introduction, the book contains 8 chapters. One of those chapters is the 48 page sprawling mess that is the maneuvers list. That one will probably take a post or two to rant about. The rest of the chapters are mostly pretty empty both conceptually and actually, and can be gotten through in much less than a post. For fuck's sake, the “monsters chapter” is literally just three monsters. I predict that the review will manage to put other bits into that part.

The Introduction of this book is three pages long, and is pretty much entirely made of lies. This book was an alternate path of development for a future edition that the lead designer and lead developer had already convinced the rest of the team to scrap. They were back converting it to an edition that they had already gotten the go-ahead from the higher ups to discontinue. It was, in short, a lame duck book in two ways. But the introduction does not say “This is a piece of design that we have personally lobbied to cancel that we are inadequately converting into an edition that we have also personally lobbied to cancel.”
AncientH

The world of the DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game is filled with characters who pursue the ways of battle. Barbarians destroy their foes in berserk frenzies, and rangers are masters of the hunt. Paladins rely on their virtue and courage to sustain them against their opponents. Fighters master an array of special maneuvers and attacks to overcome the monsters and villains they encounter. But the highest of a warrior’s arts is the Sublime Way—the secret
lore that teaches a fighting character how to meld his inner strength, training, and discipline into the perfect weapon.

The Sublime Way is not magical—at least, not in a normal sense. It is a fighting system that harnesses a student’s discipline and determination through knowledge, practice, and study. A master of the Sublime Way can perform martial exploits that are nearly superhuman—and, in fact, some of them actually transcend the natural.
Two things to point out here:

1) Despite multiple attempts over the years to pad out the initial roster of core classes with alternate (and arguably more interesting) characters like Dragon Shaman, Hexblade, Ninja, Scout, Divine Mind, Soulknife, Spellthief, etc. none of them are presented here - and that's typical of the edition. Bloat had gotten to the point that nobody even bothered to try to promote the various options that were out there, either because they were too shit or marginal to bother with.

It's interesting to think what a D&D 3.75 soft reboot would have looked like if underperforming classes like the Fighter were retired and in its place you had options like Psychic Warrior, Hexblade, and Soulknife - classes still focused on combat, but with individual gimmicks and abilities. It doesn't solve the linear/quadratic problem, but it would have muddied the waters a little - especially if Sorcerer/Wizard had been retired in favor of Warlock, Shadowmage, and Dread Necromancer.

2) The emphasis on not magic is to maintain the mundane/magic divide, which is a token out there for fans that have sand in their craw about that. Which is weird, because if you dig into European history and mythology and suchlike, there's a fair number of warriors that learn how to cast at least one or two spells and have magic weapons and do impossible feats. But you get people that declare all such fantastic martial arts crap smacks of anime and manga...and so there's a weird almost racist undercurrent to the detractors.

Because D&D is traditionally set in a quasi-medieval Europe, and that is White Mythic Space. It's not like there weren't plenty of black people in medieval Europe - Moors in Spain, Turks in Eastern Europe, traders from Egypt, North Africa, and the Levant in pretty much all the major cities, some from as far away as India or potentially China - and there had been for centuries. There were black Africans in Roman Britain. But Tolkien doesn't have any in Lord of the Rings (the Southrons being explicitly invaders), and Robert E. Howard's Conan stories have the racial politics of 1930s Texas, so...it gets weird. Fans, sometimes without realizing it, get an image in their heads of a setting where everybody is white and doing their own European culture thing with no foreign influences whatsoever. Which is a racialist fantasy. And they resist anything that they think doesn't fit into that fantasy...which, because of the prominence of super-powered martial arts in anime and manga, they associate with Asia.

But, c'mon. Have you read some of the shit in Irish legends?
Frank

Perhaps the biggest negative reaction to the Book of Nine Swords was people who felt that it was obviously unbalanced. Certainly anyone who had convinced themselves that Fighters and Barbarians were a reasonable balance point to have would be given clear evidence that the characters in this book were more powerful than that. The characters in this book are more powerful than the Fighters and Barbarians of the 3rd edition PHB. That's not a qualified statement on my part, they simply are more powerful, in a simple and fairly dramatic fashion. They start pretty similar, and then when Fighters get their equivalent of three hit points the Warblade gets to gain access to new vistas of power and ability. You might think then that the introduction would be a good place to head off criticism of that sort, perhaps by explicitly drawing parallels to Druids and Wizards for whom this Linear/Quadratic growing power imbalance with the core swordsmen already existed. Instead, they fanned the flames of that sort of dissent as badly as if that had been their actual goal. The very first non-italicized paragraph explicitly states that warriors of the “Sublime Way” (that is: characters from this book) are “higher” than Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians. Explicitly. It calls out specific character classes from the PHB and mentions that the character classes in this book are better.

I'm really not sure what the hell they expected to happen at this point. You can rather easily make the case that the Sublime Way isn't a bad thing to put into Dungeons & Dragons. Indeed, you can make a pretty compelling case that the Warblade is still significantly less powerful than any of the full casters that players normally play. At high levels the Wizards are summoning demons and teleporting across the continent, and while the Sword Sage is doing things far more impressive than hitting people with his sword now with an extra 2 points of damage, he isn't mastering time and space and collecting a harem of demon wenches or whatever. The authors of Tome of Battle decided not to do that. They played up the fact that they were making a power creep book – and then immediately get lost in the weeds about how they never came up with particularly satisfying fluff for fucking any of this shit.

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You don't need to use magic to set your sword on fire in a fantasy setting.

The second paragraph pitches us the thing that would go on to being the Martial Power Source in 4th edition – a vague idea that some people would get vanilla action hero abilities instead of having an actual reason that they had superheroic abilities. So you can do level appropriate stuff that's nominally on par with what the wizards and psychics and shit are doing, but you aren't channeling divine energies or using magic or focusing your own psychic power or being a supernatural creature or anything. You are able to threaten metal giants that are one hundred feet tall because you are skilled with a sword and for no other reason.

There are obviously people who disagree with me, but the whole idea of warriors becoming “as powerful” as dragons and demons from a character level standpoint without letting them actually have powers is ludicrous. It created a world of cognitive dissonance. You tell me that these Martial Adepts can chop a stone wall in half, but they don't have super strength, they don't have magic sword swings. It's just the old adage “How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice.”

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There are many easy enough ways to have a warrior with a sword be as powerful as a dragon or a titan, but you kind of have to commit to them actually having that much power.

Now D&D has Cloud Giants who are twenty feet tall and live on solid clouds. And the level system directly tells us that every single 13th level character is supposed to be comparably powerful. It's not like there isn't room for swordsmen who fight at that level by having super powers. There are plenty of heroes and monsters in legend who can float around on their own clouds and punch out a giant. But the Martial Power Source – and its predecessor the Sublime Way – tried to get there without going there. You can win an arm wrestling competition with a giant, but you aren't actually as strong as a giant. How the fuck is that supposed to work? No one knows. No one could ever explain it, and only the shittiest of 4rries invading from Something Awful even pretended it wasn't a massive shit sandwich of cognitive dissonance.

This resulted in the second complaint leveraged against this book: that it was “Too Anime.” Which isn't precisely right. Characters in the Final Fantasy generally do just plain “have powers” as explanations for why they have powers. Crono explicitly has lightning magic, so the fact that he flies around and chops dragons in half with his katana isn't for “no reason.” But it's very telling that we are two paragraphs into the book and we've already given two big reasons for potential fans to slam this book shut.
AncientH

There is an organic way to approach this, and that's just to have a cut-off for (demi)human potential. If human strength caps off at 18, for example, 19+ is superhuman. Which isn't a stupid or weird thing. Anime actually embraces this basic concept all the time.

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Shonen Jump thinks you just aren't trying hard enough.

How you get to be superhuman isn't as important as the fact that you're there. That's what (Sp), (Psi), and (Su) tags on abilities are there for. Even the (Ex) tags are stretching things a bit. And it's not like D&D hadn't already embraced he idea that NPCs are crap, NPC classes are explicitly weaker than PC classes. So there's no reason not to embrace this as a way forward.

There were, of course, other ways forward. Sheer martial badassery has a certain appeal to it, and people that obtain superhuman skills and powers just by training hard is cool. But they could have gone other ways with it. You could be a Juicer who has special abilities based on steadily downing magical potions, and your body is changed to adapt to the strange and terrible chemicals you ingest regularly. You could be augmented with grafts and obtain superhuman powers that way. You could make a pact with a fae and instead of channeling your warlock invocations like they do, you channel them through martial invocations that give you superhuman powers. Maybe you willingly trap a demon within your body, and when you let it out during a demonic rage you transform into an infernal engine of destruction that's able to go toe-to-toe with dragons.

And those are still just a few possibilities. There are a shitload of potential ways to up your game...and they didn't want to go that route. It didn't fit with their conception of what a Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin could be.
Frank

The explanation for why Dungeons and Dragons uses charges for its spells and shit is not very deep. D&D came out of a table top wargame, and the magic users in that game had spell cards that they could play during the course of the battle. But that's not an in world explanation. Hell, it's not even an in game explanation. It's a historical explanation based on the context that Dungeons & Dragons used to be different and also used to be an outgrowth of a different kind of game altogether. And back in the 1970s, Gygax's explanations for why magic users used fire-and-forget spells was pretty bad. You “memorized” spells and then you forgot them when you cast them. And you could memorize the same spell more than once so you could cast it more than once. It was super dumb. And because that explanation was dumb, most of the D&D variants people made in the 1970s used some variant or another on Spell Points instead. It's not abstractly better or more balanced or anything, it's just that people were rebelling against a resource management system that had a clunky in-character explanation for how and why it worked the way it did.

Which gets to a larger point, which is that the explanations for these mechanics in-world matter in an RPG in a way that they don't in other forms of games. Like, in Monopoly the answer to why the Battleship isn't faster than the Flatiron is “Who fucking cares?” But in a roleplaying game, you don't have to keep moving in a clockwise fashion. You can stop and interact with the other characters and the environment. Because your pawns can move left or right just by you asking them to. Every part of the world is something that you could potentially focus on and interact with in novel ways. The question “how does this work for the characters in the story?” is absolutely crucial. It's a role playing game, you don't have to solve the riddle on the door, you can burrow in through the wall. Or whatever.

After 4th edition doubled and tripled down on ignoring in-character and in-world explanations for how or why anything happened, people came up with the fancy terminology “Dissociated Mechanics” to discuss this particular problem. But of course, when Tome of Battle came out in 2006, such terminology hadn't been invented to be discussed by the design community. Instead we were left with the simple fact that the explanation for how and why the resource systems of the character classes in Tome of Battle worked were inadequate and vaguely insulting.

In Orcus, characters work like a deck of cards. They have super powers that come online when they are drawn out of their deck and go into a used pile that gets reshuffled and managed in various ways under various circumstances. That's a perfectly reasonable way for a game to work, and there are certainly glimpses that show the game aspect of this might have worked pretty well if they'd spent more time listening to Gutshera and less time fucking around. But making this all work as a role playing game would have required the abilities to interact with the world. Ironically, the problem here was that it was too much Chess and not enough Anime. Can your superior martial arts strikes let you hammer in nails well? Can you use your leap attack to get boxes off of high shelves? What the fuck? When Ranma ½ isn't straightforwardly about puberty and gender dysphoria it's about using martial arts in novel ways to compete in bizarre contests of various sorts for comedic effect. Most adventures involve Ranma figuring out how to use their martial arts skills to make butter sculptures, ice dance, or play baseball. And while I doubt that those specific questions are ones likely to be asked in your particular dungeon crawl, the fact that you could answer such questions is what sets Dungeons & Dragons on a different level from board games.

In Tome of Battle, the character classes get resource management systems that have been lifted from the Orcus playtest package. And that's kind of it. The explanation for how any of it fits into the world when the characters are doing anything else than having swordfights with ogres is... pretty limited.
Book of Nine Swords wrote: the maneuvers of a Sublime Way master represent small moments of clarity, self-knowledge, piety, or perfection.
That's pretty much all you get. There are “small moments” of like insight or whatever and then those have game mechanical effects. It's not very inspiring, and was the kind of thing that ended up getting 4th edition accused of being “basically an MMO” two years later. And the thing is: it's not necessary. Coming up with explanations for resource management systems that aren't terrible isn't all that hard. 3rd edition D&D famously ditched the idea of “memorizing” a spell and called it “preparing” a spell. You didn't “forget” a “memorized” spell, you “used up” a “prepared” spell. The resource mechanic was identical, but the explanation was simple and easy to explain. And then the mechanic became an associated mechanic with verisimilitude and it was good. It wouldn't be very hard to come up with an explanation for why the Martial Adepts power system worked the way it worked, but Mearls and Baker weren't invested enough to even bother trying. And it definitely hurt this book's reception. How could it not?
AncientH

It's really weird to think that one of the primary stumbling blocks of D&D is a failure of imagination, but that's really what we have here. It's not even that Shadowrun already had physical adepts and Earthdawn already gave everybody magical powers, it's that the tiniest toe dipped into the idea that fighters can have nice things too was so fucking taboo that that they felt the need to load it up with restrictions and caveats instead of just embracing that shit.

Honestly, they didn't even need to create maneuvers and try to hamfistedly apply Vancian spellcasting to a martial milieu. If they just let caster level = character level and let Fighters dip into a small list of spells as they leveled so they could throw some fire and lightning on their sword, that would go a fair way to balancing things right there. But they wanted to do things the hard way, which is why we got Tome of Battle.
Frank

The Glossary defines 13 terms relevant to the Sublime Way (but does not attempt to define “Sublime Way” because go fuck yourself) and takes most of a page. Some of these concepts are somewhat pointless. Like, you have an “initiator level” that functions like your caster level for purposes of martial adept maneuvers, but pretty much everything about this system would be better if every single time Initiator Level was referenced it just made a function call to your character level or base attack bonus or something. It's best looked at as a fairly cargo cultish attempt to convert this into 3rd edition rules. Crap like caster levels getting way out of line with character levels was a known problem and despite the fact that this book was made from the corpse of playtest documents for a new edition, they didn't take any time at all to try actually address any of the problems that people knew 3rd edition had.

This is quite simply very low hanging fruit. But Mearls and Baker weren't really interested in trying to fix 3.5, they weren't even interested in getting playtest data from the people at large. Contrary to what they'd claim once this book proved unexpectedly popular, they weren't trying to float ideas to inform the development of 4th edition. This book was DOA and they'd already killed the project four months before it was even released. So you'd think they would be taking time like this to check to see if people would accept abilities that triggered off of BAB instead of class level or something equally obvious – and you'd be wrong. These people weren't looking for feedback at all. This isn't a matter of sending out test balloons, this is a matter of trying to look busy and still draw a paycheck.

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If you think of this entire event as The Producers, but for RPGs, a lot of decisions make a lot more sense.
AncientH

Key Skill: Every martial maneuver is tied to a skill, such as Balance, Concentration, or Jump. Sometimes key skills come into play in the initiation of a maneuver, but mostly they represent the ideals around which their respective disciplines are centered.
This as much as anything reminds me of part of the problem with Truenaming. The idea that skillchecks would somehow balance out the fact that powers were level-based disregards how badly served D&D3.5 was by its skill system, and the numerous and cheap boosts available. You can sorta see how in a different life they might have thought of this as something every class had to deal with - pay attention to what the key skills were for whatever your flavor of ability was - but again, it went nowhere. And we know what 4E did with skills.
Frank

I'm not going to bother giving you the play by play on the italicized story sections. The framing device of the book is that there are nine legendary artifact swords that people have based martial arts schools around. This is super dumb because it limits the scope of the book tremendously. Instead of being a basic alternate take on warrior characters, it's like Elothar Warriors of Bladereach.

The final bit in the introduction is a sidebar that rants about how they are taking bits from martial arts movies and anime and video games to make a blended genre that incorporates aspects of East and West. It's not exactly a bad sentiment, it's just extremely... Poochy the Dog. When this book tells me that it's “not your parent's D&D” I'm just like “Dude, my parent's D&D was heavily houseruled Caltech rules that was maintained in three ring binders, I haven't been playing my parent's D&D since 1989.” But for all they are talking a big game about inclusiveness, this is all just very tone deaf. The fact that you think it's weird to have ninjas and kung fu monsters alongside noble paladins is why you shouldn't have been allowed to write an edition aimed at a younger audience. For fuck's sake, the Monk was in the Player's Handbook in 1978 – before I was even born.

I think the big issue here is that no one on this project seems to have any idea what characters do in source material. They aren't name checking Hercules and Cú Chulainn or even characters in modern fantasy novels like Wheel of Time or Jhereg books. The only things they specifically name check are videogames: Soul Calibur and Final Fantasy. And while those are reasonable pieces of source material, they aren't weird or surprising. And more importantly, they don't extrapolate to what characters are actually supposed to do at high levels.

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Obviously, Soul Calibur is a reasonable piece of source material for D&D characters.
AncientH

I'm going to save my higher level rant for later, but I think it's worth emphasizing that D&D 3.x's focus on combat - especially square-based combat in a plot to sell minis - strongly emphasized a split between combat abilities and non-combat abilities which very much disenfranchises any character class which focuses almost exclusively on combat, because the majority of their abilities have no application outside of combat and any resource they spend on acquiring said abilities comes at the opportunity cost of their combat ability, which is their only fucking marketable ability. So you get trapped in a spiral where the Fighter is only good at fighting because if the Fighter does anything else then they're less good at fighting, and if the Fighter isn't good at fighting then what the fuck is the point of being a Fighter?
Frank

Next up: Chapter 1. That's the part where we actually talk about the character classes.
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Post by DrPraetor »

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Re: OSSR: Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords

Post by maglag »

Ancient History wrote: Because D&D is traditionally set in a quasi-medieval Europe, and that is White Mythic Space. It's not like there weren't plenty of black people in medieval Europe - Moors in Spain
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Napoleon also missed the memo that spanish did not take kindly to moors in their country, to the point they'll actually develop whole new styles of war.

Heck, even in modern Spain there's still the expression Hay moros en la costa which direcly translates to "There's moors in the coast" but the actual meaning is "there's dangerous people around" refering to moorish raids.
Last edited by maglag on Wed Dec 12, 2018 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by zeruslord »

Two months later, Mearls and Baker convinced the rest of the Orcus design team to scrap Orcus entirely, but they still went ahead and published the bits they'd co-opted into the Tome of Battle under their own names four months after that.
Do we know if they finished writing ToB before or after Orcus was scrapped? Given how long WotC's lead times seem to be, either option seems plausible.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

This oughta be good.

As I remember you even had stuff like black people being at King Arthur's round table (Sir Pellinore off the top of my head, but maybe I'm missing somebody). I don't remember people making a big deal out of foreign fighting styles - I think those guys just got labeled "knights" like the rest of the cast.

It wouldn't be inconceivable to me to see Malory write about a Samurai as "a Japanese knight".
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Post by Chamomile »

Sir Palamedes was Arab. Turns out characters whose main schtick is "from someplace exotic and exciting" have been popular for pretty much forever.

I forget the details, but there was a half-white half-black guy, but the medieval monks weren't super clear on how racial mixing worked, so they wrote about him as having splotches of white and black skin at random.
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Post by Username17 »

Chamomile wrote: I forget the details, but there was a half-white half-black guy, but the medieval monks weren't super clear on how racial mixing worked, so they wrote about him as having splotches of white and black skin at random.
Those people exist, although you don't get it from being half white and half black. You get it from being black and having vitiligo. It's an auto-immune condition that causes you to lose pigment in splotches across your body. In ye olde days, there was no cure or treatment, so some people would look splotchy.
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It's still visible, though much less noticeable, on white people. But it can be very obvious on people whose normal skin tone is dark.

In other news: Maglag, that picture is huge and you should spoiler it.

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Ignimortis
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Post by Ignimortis »

Ah yes, the best book of 3.5 which didn't get a thorough enough development. If they didn't just stick "blade magic" on full-BAB chassis and actually bothered with making up new uses for skills, worded some stuff better and ditched the dumb shit about Nine Swords, well, this could've been a good basis for 3.75 or something.

Just take Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader instead of Fighter/Monk/Paladin, dump all the corebook classes (except for Bard and maybe Rogue) in a ditch, make spellcasters more akin to Warmage and Beguiler, create analogues to Barbarian/Ranger and maybe 5-6 more disciplines (there are no ranged disciplines in this fucking book, what were they thinking), and rewrite skills to make for more animesque shit, and voila, you've got a better balanced and more reasonable 3.5. It's not perfect, but it could've been a good starting point which could've been expanded upon.

Instead we got 4e which took everything from ToB: Bo9S wholesale and made it worse, especially the disconnect between characters' powers and the actual game world.
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maglag
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Post by maglag »

Ignimortis wrote: Just take Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader instead of Fighter/Monk/Paladin, dump all the corebook classes (except for Bard and maybe Rogue) in a ditch, make spellcasters more akin to Warmage and Beguiler, create analogues to Barbarian/Ranger and maybe 5-6 more disciplines (there are no ranged disciplines in this fucking book, what were they thinking)
To be fair, it is called the Book of ⑨ swords after all, if nothing else melee stuff was to be expected.

Mind you even ranged character can benefit from the base schools, in particular there's several effects to get extra attacks that work with either melee or ranged.
FrankTrollman wrote: Actually, our blood banking system is set up exactly the way you'd want it to be if you were a secret vampire conspiracy.
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Ancient History
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Post by Ancient History »

OSSR: Tome of Battle

Chapter One: Disciples of the Sword

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Everyone's a disciple of somethin.
AncientH

Like Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum, this book principally covers three new main classes. There doesn't appear to be any reason they settled on three except that's what they had on hand, there's no special area of playspace covered - Rogues, Monks, Barbarians, and Rangers are left out in the cold, so to speak (to say nothing of Psychic Warriors, Knights, Scouts, Duskblades, Hexblades, Samurai, Soulknives, etc.)

Which is weird when you think about it, it's not like D&D had ignored the general idea of let's give Fighters some magic previously, they had just never seriously approached it from the standpoint of let's give Fighters their own magic. It actually gets worse when you look at their short descriptions of the three classes - keeping in mind that these assholes were just described in the glossary three pages back:
Glossary wrote: Crusader: The crusader is one of the three martial adept standard classes described in Chapter 1. Crusaders are warriors who use their devotion and zeal to power martial maneuvers.

Swordsage: The swordsage is another of the martial adept standard classes from Chapter 1. Swordsages are “blade wizards”—mystic swordfi ghters who can accomplish astonishing feats of martial prowess. They know more martial maneuvers than other martial adepts, and they have access to the most martial disciplines.

Warblade: The third of the martial adept standard classes described in Chapter 1 is the warblade. These pure warriors are ascetic champions who use martial maneuvers in place of the feats or rage that a fighter or barbarian would employ.
Disciples of the Sword wrote: Crusader: This holy (or unholy) warrior is devoted to the service of a deity or principle. Through exercises of faith and inner strength, she gains the ability to execute spectacular martial maneuvers and confront those foes that are anathema to her cause.

Swordsage: Also known as a blade wizard, a sword sage is a martial artist who has learned how to invoke a unique form of magic to accomplish truly super human (and supernatural) exploits.

Warblade: A warblade is an exemplar of pure martial skill. Though he lacks the supernatural power of the crusader or swordsage, he is fully equivalent to the barbarian or fighter in terms of combat skills, relying on martial maneuvers instead of rage or feats.
Aside from the repetition, there's a strong assertion here that somebody didn't get the memo; simultaneously trying to pretend that martial maneuvers were and weren't magic within the same paragraph.
Frank

This chapter is pretty much entirely the presentation of three classes: Fighter Warblade, Paladin Crusader, and Swashbuckler Swordsage. In any sane world, the entire chapter would be ten pages or less, but because there were page counts to fill, this chapter is padded out to 20 pages. That's almost seven pages per class. Is that because it loads up on all the class options? Oh hellz nah! The majority of abilities of all three classes are pointers to maneuvers, and the maneuvers have a 10 page chapter to explain how they work and a 38 page chapter to actually contain the fucking things. The Warblade also has bonus feats, which are of course in the Skills and Feats chapter (the feats get 9 pages), but honestly are mostly pointers to lists in other books altogether. However, while the capabilities of the bonus feats are contained in a great many pages spread throughout dozens of books, feats in 3.5 were generally pretty trivial and the bonus feats don't serve much purpose other than making the actual Fighter feel even worse.

The space in chapter 1 is chewed up by adding small chunks of shit no one cares about. There's a section on playing the class that's just a bunch of ruminations and advice. And there are formulaic headings. Each gets a “Playing a [This Class]” section with the following subheadings: Religion, Other Classes, Advancement, and a Starting Package. Then they get a “[This Class] in the World” section with the following subheadings: Daily Life, Notables, Organizations, and NPC Reactions. Then they get a “[This Class] Lore” section with some ideas of what people should get by making appropriate bearlore checks. And finally a “[This Class] in the Game” section with a subheading for Adaptations and a sample encounter. The exception of course is Swordsage, where for no particular reason the “Other Classes” subsection simply appears twice, because they wanted to have a bad joke about zen koans pissing off barbarians and they just couldn't bring themselves to put it in the “Other Classes” subsection they already wrote.

It's important to note that the value added by these subheadings is virtually zero. All the martial adepts use combat maneuvers to stab fools right in the face, so having separate “combat” subheadings where they remind you that you can use your martial adept maneuvers to stab fools in the face or in the butt or whatever is not insightful or interesting. None of these classes have any special requirement to join any particular church and have no special connection to any divine forces, so having a “religion” subheading is a massive waste of time all the time. And so on.
AncientH

Sadly, this kind of bloat was common at this point. And maybe if D&D had any kind of unified setting, there would be a point to all the ridiculous fluff and roleplaying guidelines...but it didn't. Lip-service to Greyhawk had fallen off at some point, and the writers had fallen into some weird, amorphous fantasy realm where they could plop down any legend or organization they pleased without reference to anything else.

It's really weird how they spent a lot of time and effort in early D&D3 to get a fairly dense amount of info-per-page in books, and how it just went the other way at some point. I think in terms of raw materials, Tome of Battle could have been squeezed into something the size of Sword & Fist pretty easily.

Let's look at some of the specific abilities of these three classes, though:
Steely Resolve (Ex): Your supreme dedication and intense focus allow you to temporarily set aside the pain and hindering effects of injuries. When an opponent strikes you, the injury does not immediately affect you.
This is kind of weird, in that you might ask "what's the point?" It lets you fight for one round longer, maybe. It's not quite the same as giving you temporary extra hit points like in a barbarian's rage, although I think that was the immediate mechanical forebear....and then they wanted to make a whole thing.
Furious Counterstrike (Ex): You can channel the pain of your injuries into a boiling rage that lets you lash out at your enemies with renewed vigor and power. Each attack that strikes you only pushes you onward to greater glory. During your turn, you gain a bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls equal to the current value of your delayed damage pool (see steely resolve, above) divided by 5, and rounding down (minimum +1). You can only gain a maximum bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls of +6 from furious counterstrike.
So, while you're getting wrecked (because let's remember, to max out that sweet +6 bonus you have to be getting 30 points of damage in a round at level 20), you also gain a temporary bonus. I'm not sure they thought out the timing of this very well, since the sequence of events seems to be:
Round 1
Turn 1: Kobold has initiative. Kobold stabs you in the balls. (5 points of damage tucked into your Delayed Damage Pool, +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls.)

Turn 2: Fueled by pain and fury, the Crusader stabs the Kobold in its balls.

At the end of their turn, the Crusader takes the 5 damage, the delayed damage pool resets to 0. Bonus disappears.

Round 2
Turn 1: Kobold has initiative. Kobold stabs you in the balls. <repeat until one of you is dead>
Indomitable Soul (Ex): <some bullshit> You add your Charisma bonus (if any) as a bonus on Will saves. This bonus does not stack with that from a paladin’s divine grace ability.
Because ghost forbid your should consider Paladin and Crusader are two great flavors that go together.
Zealous Surge (Ex): Once per day, from 3rd level on, you can opt to
reroll a single saving throw.
Okay? I mean, this seems more like something that should be a feat, but okay.
Smite(Ex)
Not, like, evil. Just Smite. Smite a pumpkin if you want to.

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Smite that ass
Die Hard (Ex): At 10th level, you gain Die Hard as a bonus feat
You are not John McClain, you do not save Nakatomi Plaza, do not pass Go, do not reconcile with your wife.
Mettle (Ex): Beginning at 13th level [...] If you succeed on a Fortitude or Will save against an attack that would normally produce a lesser effect on a successful save (such as a spell with a saving throw entry of Will half or Fortitude partial), you instead negate the effect. You do not gain the benefit of mettle when you are unconscious or sleeping.
This is a variant of the Rogue's Evasion ability, which the Rogue gets at 2nd level. Which begs the question of why they didn't make more attempts at Fighters-but-they-get-Roguelike-abilities, since those were pretty popular. Anyway, getting it at 13th level is a bit of an insult.
Frank

The conversion of the Orcus materials to the 3.5 rules is at times pretty inadequate. And it's simply obvious that no one bothered trying to actually make any of these characters. The emblematic bit of course is Devoted Spirit Stances. Devoted Spirit is a discipline available only to Crusaders, and Crusaders get new stances at levels 1, 2, 8, and 14. Crusaders explicitly cannot trade their known stances for other stances. There's a Devoted Spirit Stance called Immortal Fortitude that you need to be a 15th level Crusader to qualify for. Crusaders do not get a Stance at 15th level, and indeed never get a new stance after 14th level. That Stance is fake. No one can ever learn it without doing weird multiclass loopholes to count as a different level for different parts of the qualifying for stances equation.

Now because you learn new maneuvers and stances at weird and arbitrary levels in the different classes, and each maneuver and stance also has its own level requirement, there are really a lot of abilities that can't normally be taken until a level or two after their level minimum. Clear evidence that no one bothered to make any of this shit line up properly between classes and powers for classes. But the Immortal Fortitude thing is simply the most obvious and egregious – the Crusader keeps getting access to new stances after they stop getting slots to put new stances in. I know no one actually plays D&D 3.5 at high level and the tops of the progressions only exist for people on the old character optimization forum to masturbate to when making “20th level builds” but no one even checked to make sure everything in the book was even possible to take.

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AncientH

I guess since I did this for Crusaders I have to do this for Swordsages. Goddamit. Even the ability write-ups are padded as fuck.
AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. However, you lose this bonus when you are immobilized or helpless.
When in doubt, they just give you numbers to make your numbers better.
Discipline Focus (Ex): As a swordsage, you can focus your training to take advantage of each discipline’s fighting style. Each time you gain the discipline focus ability, select one of the six swordsage disciplines to which that focus applies.
Okay, so this is slightly more complicated: there are three "focus" flavors. Weapon Focus is just the Weapon Focus feat, but for all discipline weapons. Insightful Strikes adds a damage bonus equal to your Wis modifier to strikes for a chosen discipline. Defensive Stance gives you a +2 bonus on saving throws when you're in a stance. The way they've stacked this ability, you don't choose which flavor you want, you choose which discipline it applies to. So it's kind of a shitty specialization routine when you get down to it. It would be a lot nicer if they let you pick, and then you can just have Weapon Focus in five different disciplines' worth of weapons or whatever, but they explicitly don't allow that. Lame.
Quick to Act (Ex): You gain a +1 bonus on initiative checks. This bonus increases by 1 at 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level.
Numbers.
Sense Magic (Su): Beginning at 7th level, you can spend 10 minutes focusing upon a weapon or suit of armor. If you succeed on a level check (DC 10 + the caster level of the weapon or armor), you can identify the properties of that item, including its enhancement bonus and special abilities. This ability does not reveal the properties of artifacts or legacy weapons, though it does indicate that such items are significantly powerful.
This is nice. I mean, you'd really want this at about 3rd level when you're dying for a magic sword, but it is genuinely an ability that fighters should have, like Zoro being able to identify a cursed sword.

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Evasion/Improved Evasion are as the Rogue abilities, no real surprise there, and last...
Dual Boost (Ex): When you reach 20th level, you can use two boost maneuvers simultaneously. Whenever you initiate a boost maneuver, you can also initiate any other boost maneuver that you know as a free action. Both boosts you initiate are expended normally. You can use this ability three times per day.
Again, this is something that would have been much cooler much sooner. I don't know why they save these things for 20th level, when they know people aren't going to play to 20th level. Ever.
Frank

While the progressions of numbers and when you get new stances and maneuvers and shit were clearly just ass-pulls, the real meat of the class is the way they handle their decks. That is, each class has some maneuver cards and they can play them during combat to do stuff. Each maneuver card also has a regular action cost so you can't just play all your strikes in some sort of Time Killers style C-C-C-COMBO! You can play one or two of them per turn most of the time (some of the maneuvers take standard actions, and some of them are “Boosts” or “Counters” that can used in addition to your standard action). The classes differ in how they choose which maneuver cards go in your hand and how they recover them when they've been sent to the used pile.
  • The Crusader selects a deck of 5 cards and every turn they draw two cards from that deck. When they run out of cards (which they will do on turn 3), they reshuffle and start over. Now what happens to the maneuver cards still in your hand when you reshuffle isn't entirely clear, so what happens on turn three when you are asked to draw two cards from a deck of one is somewhat vague.
  • The Swordsage selects a hand of 4 cards with each short rest and gets to make a new hand from the deck and the used pile with a 5 minute short rest. So in essence, they have no access to the deck during the encounter and get to remake their hand entirely between encounters.
  • The Warblade selects a hand of 3 cards during short rests and gets to refill their hand from their used pile by spending one round using no maneuvers (they are still allowed to make basic attacks during this round).
Now there are some pretty basic questions about how the Crusader is supposed to work both in terms of the fact that the reshuffling mechanic is not explained clearly and the whole concept does not have any obvious means of adjudication outside of combat. But these are not difficult concepts to get across, and indeed I just explained them all to the point where you pretty much get them (save that I called out an explicit uncertainty as to how the designers thought the reshuffle worked on round three). The actual text in the book is much longer and harder to read. Indeed, I've already spent more words telling you that I wasn't sure how the writers thought the Crusader's reshuffle worked than it would have for me to just tell you whether the hand gets reshuffled into your deck along with the used pile and whether the last card in your deck is always in your hand on round three or gets shuffled before you draw it when you are asked to draw two from a deck of one – provided that I knew the answer to those questions, which I don't.

For obvious reasons, the Warblade was by far the most popular of these classes. The Crusader was too unclear in how it worked for people to really accept it. And the Swordsage is basically a 4th edition character, enough said. But the fact that the Warblade has a deck of cards at all isn't particularly important. Within the encounter they only move cards from their hand to the used pile and from the used pile to the hand. The rest of the deck is never accessed during encounters.

So despite sitting on this bad boy for 6 months between when they decided to plagiarize the playtest docs and when it actually got released, they managed to not figure out a way to explain fucking any of this shit in a way that was simple, clear, or particularly showed off the advantages of the system. It's all very strange. Still, we can see what the Fighter, Swashbuckler, and Paladin were like in Orcus. Of those, only the Paladin particularly played with their deck as a deck, the other ones moved maneuver cards around, but they always select, never shuffle.
AncientH

Despite the fact that the Warblade was explicitly differentiated from the Fighter by the Fighter relying on their feats...well, they technically aren't wrong. In 20 levels the Fighter gets 11 bonus feats, the Psychic Warrior gets 8, and the Warblade gets 4. The Warblade still gets dead levels (8th, 12th, 14th, and 18th), but fewer than Fighter. In exchange for not having as many feats, the Warblade gets maneuvers and...
Battle Clarity (Ex): You can enter a state of almost mystical awareness of the battlefi eld around you. As long as you are not flat-footed, you gain an insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus (maximum equals your warblade level) on your Reflex saves.
I always hate how they have to caveat that. You're never going to have a +10 Int bonus, so at mid-to-high levels the limit is pointless, and at low levels where it might make all the difference you're fucked.
Weapon Aptitude (Ex): You qualify for feats that usually require a minimum number of fighter levels (such as Weapon Specialization) as if you had a fighter level equal to your warblade level –2. [...] These effective fi ghter levels stack with any actual fighter levels you have. Thus, a fighter 2/warblade 4 would also qualify for Weapon Specialization.
Prerequisites for feats were structured badly, and that includes Fighter feats. The feats that often require levels of fighter, (in the main book, these are: Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization), aren't usually fucking worth taking anyway. Related to that:
You also have the flexibility to adjust your weapon training. Each morning, you can spend 1 hour in weapon practice to change the designated weapon for any feat you have that applies only to a single weapon (such as Weapon Focus). You must have the newly designated weapon available during your practice session to make this change.
I guess they didn't want to make Fighters feel too small in the pants, but this doesn't really address the issue that weapon focus/specialization is a feat chain which provides minuscule static bonuses that become progressively less impressive as you level up. Being able to switch some of those over once a day makes it a little more versatile, but doesn't change that fact (and potentially can mean you lose access to feats that have other weapon focus/specialization as a prerequisite, although I figure if that happens its your own fault). And remember, Warblades don't have a lot of feats to play with as it is.

Uncanny Dodge is as a barbarian or rogue.
Battle Ardor (Ex): The sheer love of battle lends uncanny strength to your blows. Starting at 3rd level, you gain an insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on rolls made to confirm critical hits.
I forget that you have to roll to confirm crits all the time. In fact, there are a lot of little fiddly bits in combat you don't normally think of, and the Warblade gets bonuses to several of them. I'm not sure how useful they are in total, but I guess it avoids more dead levels.
Battle Cunning (Ex): [...] insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on melee damage rolls against flat-footed or flanked opponents.

Battle Skill (Ex): [...] insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on any check made to oppose an enemy’s bull rush, disarm, feint, overrun, sunder, or trip attempt.

Battle Mastery (Ex): [...] insight bonus equal to your Intelligence bonus on melee attack rolls and melee damage rolls made whenever you make an attack of opportunity.
I mean, it's consistent, and if you were working your way through the Expertise feat chain you'd have the "smart Fighter" approach down...but then again, you don't really have the feats for that.
Stance Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, you can have two stances active simultaneously. When you use a swift action to initiate or change your stance, you can initiate or change one or both stances.
See above for dual boost. It's not that this is a bad ability, it's just not a wow ability. It's not like Kaio-Ken or Gear 2nd.
Frank

I just want to say that Warblade and Swordsage sound like names that were generated from those tables that tell you that your Werewolf name is Moon Moon.

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Crusader is a more contentious name. Obviously in English it means “someone with a cause” and you can be like a Crusader for Justice or a Crusader for Clean Water or a Crusader for Peanut Butter and Jelly with the Crusts Off or fucking whatever. But it also has a historical meaning that is less positive. There were these things called the Crusades in which large groups of Christians invaded various parts of the Mediterranean and committed a bunch of senseless atrocities. Thekilled and raped a lot of people, and some folks are still sore about that. “Crusader” is not considered a value neutral term by North Africans any more than “Storm Trooper” is considered value neutral by Jews. Calling a class “Crusader” is defensible, but only barely. If some Arab-American organized a boycott over that, they wouldn't be in the wrong.

And you can kind of understand why this is happening. They were backporting these classes into an edition that already had a Fighter, Paladin, and Swashbuckler. The Thesaurus runs out of words for “Warrior” fairly quickly. But there were still plenty of words they could have used. The Swashbuckler easily could have been the Buccaneer or the Duelist. The Crusader could have been a Champion or a Zealot. And so on and so on.

Part of the issue is that they had committed to the “Book of Nine Swords” framing before they even decided what the book was going to be about. So the thing where they write dumb shit like “How does a sword mean?” like it was deep rather than just ungrammatical was the part they committed to before they even decided to appropriate the Orcus character decks concept. The italicized content I've never read and am not even reading right now was the first part of the book, and the exploration of new mechanics is the part that the authors couldn't even be fucked to do original work on.
AncientH

I like to compare these classes to Psychic Warrior, because that was basically the Original Gimmick of "Fighter with less Fighty-ness but some cool powers." And the Psychic Warrior is Pretty goddman simple. They don't get the same BAB, feats, or access to weapon focus/specialization. They roll d8s for hp instead of d10s. But they get 8 bonus feats and a new psychic power with each level. They may not be anybody's flavor of exciting, but there are technically no dead levels in a Psychic Warrior. And yet the basic design takeaway from the Psychic Warrior seems to be that it was too powerful.

They would never make that mistake again.

Which is why Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade mainly focus on small, heavily-conditioned bonuses to largely peripheral combat things. Some of them are nice, things you would actually want. But they're all also a bit unfocused. You look at a class like Soulknife, and whether you think it's shit or not, that is a class that has one central ability and focuses intently on developing that ability. These three classes? More generic. Which is maybe weird until you stop to think about it.

The Fighter is a general class, the only thing it really supplies is a good BAB and lots of bonus feats. That's boring, and there's no reason they couldn't have filled out those empty levels with shit like "Choose from a list of abilities" including Evasion, Mettle, and Battle Skill. The very existence of all those feats encourages feat chains, and the fact that the first couple of levels are front-loaded with feats encourages dipping in for a level or two. If you want to be a Sorcerer that specializes in ray spells, it might be worth it to take the hit to dip into Fighter for 3 levels to pick up two feats and Weapon Specialization (Ray) before going into Eldritch Knight or something...and you can't really say the same with these three classes.
Frank

The concept of the Stance is that it's an ongoing buff that has an in-world explanation as to why you can't stack it with more of the same. Like, obviously you can't be in Crane Stance and Tiger Stance at the same time – and that provides solid game balance benfits, because it means that people can't make combinations the designers didn't think of. It's such a good and obvious idea that K and I wrote the concept several months before Tome of Battle came out. The Dungeonomicon Monk uses a very similar concept to Tome of Battle Stances called “Stances,” and of course it was publicly posted months before Tome of Battle went to print. It's good design, it's good “associated mechanics,” but at the end of the day it was already done – literally by me even – so I'm not actually willing to give the book much credit for this innovation.

It's like how people sometimes tell me that the Backgrounds in 5e are a great idea. And I'm like, “Fine, but you know I wrote the same thing for 3e, years earlier, and called them 'Backgrounds', right?”
AncientH

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The box isn't even that pretty.

At the end of the day, I don't think it's clear what the point of Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade are supposed to be. They're shuffling, lifeless husks for different maneuver/stance/discipline mechanics, but they don't fill any of the real idea-space that Paladin, Swashbuckler, and Fighter do. There's a couple good ideas buried in there, but no core concept as to how these guys are substantially different to play from any other class. A soulknife hits you with their mindblade, a Psychic Warrior combines mind and martial skill, a Hexblade curses you, and a Warblade...strikes a pose?

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Chapter Two: Skills and Feats
Frank

Tome of Battle is a 3.5 D&D book, and that means that it has a Skills and Feats chapter. Skills and Feats are a weird thing to talk about, because characters don't actually get any more of them if you write more of them to take. So by writing more feats, you are growing the absolute size of the feat pie, but each character's absolute pie slice doesn't change in size. So the more you expand, the smaller each player's pie slice is in relative terms. The Tome of Battle adds the skill “Martial Lore” but characters don't actually gain any more skill points. So the fact that it exists simply means that there is now stuff about swording that existing Fighters don't know. Every skill or feat that gets added is an unfunded mandate.

This chapter is 10 pages, and nine of them are spent on new feats. Characters normally only see three or four feats in an entire campaign, so nine pages of feats is normally “nine pages of feats you will never take.
AncientH

To be fair, they also give a new use for the existing skill Intimidate: the 'Duel of Wills.' This is a lot like the 'Psychic Duel' in Oriental Adventures where you manfully try to stare each other down. Whatever.

I'm going to differ with Frank on Martial Lore, since it's specifically about identifying martial maneuvers which didn't exist until this book. That still makes it fucking useless, but it at least explains why existing Fighters have never heard of it.

There are 38 feats and they are...well, fucking awful, really. You've got a couple designed for people to dip into martial maneuvers out of morbid curiosity, and each discipline gets one or two designed to do something for whomever takes some of their maneuvers - that's the equivalent of there being feats that care which spells you have known for sorcerers, incredibly small pool of potential users there - and a couple gish feats for doing things if you have martial maneuvers plus something - turning undead, for example.

There's a few feats that don't require maneuvers and which might be of general interest, but these are things like Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick which are yet more attempts to work additional martial arts crap into feats. It's really hard to justify why "Snap Kick" is a feat instead of a maneuver, for example - and then tactical feats are another layer of weirdness on top of that. Does anyone remember Style Feats? Same basic concept: you have a feat that gives you some extra special combat maneuvers options.
Frank

While most of the feats in this book are worthless – just trivial numeric bonuses with bizarre conditionals attached – there are a few that directly modify how the game works. These are “feat taxes” for the ones people want to take. They are all deceptively simple, but because of the way the decks work, they have really quite significant effects. So the Crusader can spend a feat on starting with 3 maneuver cards drawn instead of 2. And that sounds small, but remember that your whole deck is 5 cards, so starting with three means you empty the deck in 2 rounds instead of 3. The Swordsage can spend a feat on having an extra card in their hand – which means running out of juice in 5 plays instead of 4. And anyone take a feat to be able to re-assign the cards in your deck and hand as a full-round action, which technically allows you to do it during combat rather than between encounters. This bit is basically mandatory for Swordsages.

There are also some feats that let you dip into Martial Adepting if you weren't a member of any of these classes. These are fairly incoherent. If you spend a feat on getting access to a maneuver off someone else's list they become 4e style Encounter Powers and ignore all the redraw or reshuffle methods. Encounter Powers aren't defined in 3rd edition, because that was a concept they were throwing around for 4th edition. So the people in the office made shit like the Factotum and Martial Study that do things “per encounter” because that's how they were running things in-house. But none of that has any meaning in-world. It was the beginning of the complete disconnect between the game they were writing and the role playing that was to go along with it. The characters aren't dividing their lives into “encounters” the characters have periods of danger and periods of assumed safety but really it's just hours coming one after another.

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If you fail a spot check, do you still get your maneuver back? No one knows!
AncientH

There's an item creation feat "Inscribe Martial Script" which is as ominous as it sounds, and there are a couple of Psionic feats, one of which literally lets you trade psi points for new uses of maneuvers. I'm not against that in concept, I just think if they were going to do it they should have just gone whole hog and given some alternate class abilities so your Soulknife could pick up some maneuvers or something.
Frank

Tactical Feats were an answer to the fact that most feats were trivial conditional bonuses no one would care about even if the conditions came up frequently by bundling them together in a thematic package. In essence, it was tacitly admitting that feats were too small and conditional for the number of feats you got. Tactical Feats run the gamut of “four things you don't care about” to “four things that are individually not that exciting but synergize into a pretty sweet package.”
To use this option, you must damage, disarm, or trip an opponent. On your next turn, you can make a DC 20 Intimidate check against your opponent as a free action. If this check succeeds, your foe takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls for 1 round.
Some of the options are so lame that you don't even care that they come in a package of 3 or 4.

Ultimately, this was the kind of thinking that convinced K and I to make Tome Feats, and it was wrong. Big sprawling feats with a lot to keep track of are big sprawling things with a lot to keep track of. They are really complex to adjudicate and select. And they aren't balanced and lead to a lot of feel bads because characters who selected the “wrong” bundle feats are then way behind the characters who selected the “right” ones.

My eyes are glazing over trying to make sense of the Tactical Feats in Tome of Battle, because they are more loopy and conditional than most. Like, there's one where if your opponent misses you because they couldn't see you then you have the option of making a hide check and if it succeeds then your opponent can't see you. I... don't think that does anything at all, but it's very wordy. The larger point is that the correct solution to feats being relatively trivial facets of the character like Educated or Moil Touched is to just give people more of them. Feat bundling has all the problems of feat trees (where you can end up screwing yourself over for many levels at a time by not taking the feat you were supposed to) and all the problems of massively long lists (because all the feat bundles do a lot of things). It wasn't the way forward, and these incredibly verbose and complex tactical feats serve as a proper underline to that statement.
AncientH

Special: Shadow Blade can be used in place of Weapon Finesse to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other special ability. If this substitution allows you to gain a benefit that normally applies to all finesse weapons (those described in the Weapon Finesse feat description), it instead applies only to the Shadow Hand discipline’s preferred weapons.
You see something like this written into a handful of feats, and I think this is actually a reasonably good design approach for expansion material. The thing is that you start off writing the Core Books, and everybody uses them, and all of the expansion material is written based off of those core mechanics. Which means that feats in the Player's Handbook have an outsized influence on all subsequent materials, and it can be hard for peripheral expansions to get much play because all of the mechanics in other books tie back into the core books, not your special mechanic.

So having a feat which can stand in for another feat for all purposes of qualifying for prerequisites for classes and other feats is a good idea. It lets your new stuff integrate with the old stuff in an interesting way. Whether it works is a matter of the design space: Weapon Finesse is only a feat prerequisite for two obscure style feats plus Duelist and a few relatively obscure classes like Whisperknife...but the basic idea is sound, and if they did a 3.75 version of D&D I could totally see something like Evasive Reflexes and Combat Reflexes side-by-side in the Player's Handbook.
Frank

Next Up: Blade Magic!

That's the part where we actually trot out the part of the book anyone cares about.
AncientH

I'll be honest, I was never about anything more than dumpster-diving this book for feats when I cared about these things. But sure, we can look at the not-magic of blades.
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Post by nockermensch »

maglag wrote:
Ignimortis wrote: Just take Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader instead of Fighter/Monk/Paladin, dump all the corebook classes (except for Bard and maybe Rogue) in a ditch, make spellcasters more akin to Warmage and Beguiler, create analogues to Barbarian/Ranger and maybe 5-6 more disciplines (there are no ranged disciplines in this fucking book, what were they thinking)
To be fair, it is called the Book of &#9320; swords after all
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Chamomile wrote:I forget the details, but there was a half-white half-black guy, but the medieval monks weren't super clear on how racial mixing worked, so they wrote about him as having splotches of white and black skin at random.
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Post by Emerald »

Ancient History wrote:Like Tome of Magic and Magic of Incarnum, this book principally covers three new main classes. There doesn't appear to be any reason they settled on three except that's what they had on hand, there's no special area of playspace covered - Rogues, Monks, Barbarians, and Rangers are left out in the cold, so to speak (to say nothing of Psychic Warriors, Knights, Scouts, Duskblades, Hexblades, Samurai, Soulknives, etc.)

[...]

At the end of the day, I don't think it's clear what the point of Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade are supposed to be. They're shuffling, lifeless husks for different maneuver/stance/discipline mechanics, but they don't fill any of the real idea-space that Paladin, Swashbuckler, and Fighter do. There's a couple good ideas buried in there, but no core concept as to how these guys are substantially different to play from any other class.
As far as I can tell, the Crusader, Swordsage, and Warblade basically were supposed to replace the Paladin, Rogue/Monk, and Fighter, and they weren't supposed to play differently from those core classes, and that seems to be the general forum consensus as well. When people in a ToB thread whine about the warblade being "the fighter, but better" the usual response isn't "No, the Warblade does X, Y, and Z but the Fighter still does W!" it's "Well, yeah, because the fighter sucks, use the warblade instead." The flavor and idea-space coverage may have been lackluster because the book was thrown together and because they didn't want to come out and say they meant to replace the core classes, but the mechanics are there.

And I said Rogue/Monk above instead of Swashbuckler because the Swordsage is really a closer fit for those two, even if the original 4e class it was based on was the latter. Because really:
AC Bonus: Starting at 2nd level, you can add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus to Armor Class, so long as you wear light armor, are unencumbered, and do not use a shield. This bonus to AC applies even against touch attacks or when you are flat-footed. However, you lose this bonus when you are immobilized or helpless.
When in doubt, they just give you numbers to make your numbers better.

[...]

There's a few feats that don't require maneuvers and which might be of general interest, but these are things like Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick which are yet more attempts to work additional martial arts crap into feats. It's really hard to justify why "Snap Kick" is a feat instead of a maneuver, for example
Swordsages get Wis to AC, can take Superior Unarmed Strike to improve their unarmed damage (and there's an Adaptation section for Unarmed Swordsage that straight-up gives them the monk's unarmed attack progression) and Snap Kick to get an extra unarmed attack with any other attack (and so is basically Flurry of Blows, but works with standard attacks, maneuvers, and other not-a-full-attack attacks so the swordsage can actually be a decent mobile skirmisher as the core monk claims it can), and have the entire Setting Sun discipline of unarmed throws, fancy dodges, and other very-stereotypical-monk abilities.

On the Rogue side, swordsages get Evasion and Improved Evasion and have the entire Shadow Hand discipline that's all about stealth, attacking flat-footed targets, and similar roguish abilities (including Assassin's Stance, which straight-up gives them +2d6 sneak attack), and the Shadow Blade feat--which requires Shadow Hand access--grants Dex to damage so you can build a "rogue" who only cares about Dex and not about Str.

Also:
My eyes are glazing over trying to make sense of the Tactical Feats in Tome of Battle, because they are more loopy and conditional than most. Like, there's one where if your opponent misses you because they couldn't see you then you have the option of making a hide check and if it succeeds then your opponent can't see you. I... don't think that does anything at all, but it's very wordy.
The actual text of the first two options of the Gloom Razor feat is thus:
Lingering Gloom: To use this option, your opponent must miss you due to concealment. On your next turn, you can make a Hide check opposed by your foe’s Spot check as a swift action. If this check succeeds, you gain the benefit of an invisibility spell against that foe until the end of your turn.

Moving Shadows: To use this option, you must deal damage to an enemy with a melee attack and move at least 10 feet during your turn. On your next turn, you can treat that enemy as fl at-footed against the first melee attack you make in that round.
The first one, the one Frank mentioned, is basically another one of those sneakily-fix-the-core-classes things in this book. There are a bunch of threads on this forum about how Hide doesn't actually let you sneak around as you'd expect, and this feat lets you turn someone missing you due to concealment (because you're in a Shadow Hand stance that grants concealment, because you're in darkness but someone saw you, etc.) into invisibility, which actually does let you sneak around unseen. Only for one round and against one creature, granted, but they did try.

The second option, likewise, provides a much easier way to get some flat-footed than surprising them, hiding, feinting, etc., the better to trigger Sneak Attack and the bunch of Shadow Hand maneuvers that require a flat-footed target. And for all the TWFing rogues out there, the Tiger Claw school is all about TWFing, jumping around, and insta-kills, so between that and Shadow Hand you can make a very ninja-y rogue.

(Tiger Claw was also probably an attempt to cover the other two, Barbarian as a Tiger Claw-focused Warblade with the discipline's bestial/rage theme, the Warblade's d12 HD, and the Bloodclaw Master PrC granting Rage and Ranger as a Tiger Claw-focused Swordsage with the discipline's "easier TWF" maneuvers and a few maneuvers that actually work with ranged weapons, the d8 HD and light armor, and the Wis focus, but those didn't work nearly as well.)
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Post by Ancient History »

Well, Crusader stands out to me - like the Incarnate, they don't have the same overtones of holy warrior that a Paladin does, and they lack the key features of a Paladin that define that role - limited divine healing and spells, etc. They are more varied in that you don't have to just be Lawful Good to be a Crusader, but it's not quite the same ideological or play niche.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

They actually almost included fluff about the crusader looking for a holy land until they realized what an awful idea that was.
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Post by jt »

This and the 4E OSSR at the same time? It's like Christmas. Which I guess is seasonally appropriate.
Ignimortis wrote:Just take Warblade/Swordsage/Crusader instead of Fighter/Monk/Paladin, dump all the corebook classes (except for Bard and maybe Rogue) in a ditch, make spellcasters more akin to Warmage and Beguiler, create analogues to Barbarian/Ranger...
Yeah, if you just took tier 3 off of JaronK's list, renamed a few things, and filled in the obvious gaps, you'd get by far the best game in this rules-heavy D&D-clone space. There's lots of important design work that could and should be done to improve on 3.5's formula, but you wouldn't have to, because the competition is not even close. Which after a decade just makes me feel embarrassed for everyone involved.
FrankTrollman wrote:Ultimately, this was the kind of thinking that convinced K and I to make Tome Feats, and it was wrong. Big sprawling feats with a lot to keep track of are big sprawling things with a lot to keep track of. They are really complex to adjudicate and select.
On the contrary, I think bundling related abilities is a great idea. It's such a great idea that it already exists in the system as class levels.

Solving the same problem two times using the same approach and two different implementations is terrible design though. You could replace classes entirely with Tome Feats or Tactical Feats or what-have-you, but including them in the same game as class levels doesn't work.

I guess this implies you could also address the problem by making everything class levels? And you could make everyone gestalts of a combat-oriented class and utility-oriented background that both use class and level systems. Which is okay; I'm not terribly excited by that idea but it sounds playable.
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Post by Username17 »

jt wrote:On the contrary, I think bundling related abilities is a great idea. It's such a great idea that it already exists in the system as class levels.
The issue is that Class Levels ideally give you a "total package" that includes basic defenses, level appropriate attacks, and so on and so forth. A lot of classes are poorly designed, but that's the intention and it's possible to achieve. A bundle of selectable abilities is never going to do that. If you pick three Rock Lobsters you're going to die like a dog the first time someone calls Paper on you.
You could replace classes entirely with Tome Feats or Tactical Feats or what-have-you, but including them in the same game as class levels doesn't work.
The thing is that replacing everything with tactical feats and tome feats and shit doesn't work, and can't work. It's just like how you can't salvage 3e Open Multiclassing. There's just no way to let people pick three things that are real big but noticeably different off a big list and have the end results be remotely balanced. There's going to be synergy and counter-synergy between these things, and if the effects of the individual lego blocks are large those synergy effects are going to be large as well!

If we were playing a competitive game, the fact that one set of selections is much better than another would be fine - building an effective character would be part of the competition. But in a cooperative storytelling game, the fact that Dread Necromancers are almost literally unplayable without taking Moil Touched is real bad. And if you make individual feats big, you make shit like that ubiquitous.

Imagine for the moment that you have three Archery feats, and Archery feats are worth about +1 because feats are trivial bullshit. Obviously a dedicated Archer is going to want to take all three Archery feats, and doing that is going to be worth abotu +3. You'll notice that sort of thing, but whatever. Now let's make feats big instead, and now they are worth the equivalent of +5 each. The dedicated Archer still wants all three, and it puts them at +15. That's something the game can digest, you can set enemy armor class to whatever number you feel like. But the game can't digest a player deciding that they want to be a little bit Archerish - if they take just one Archery Feat they'll be behind by -10 relative to the player who took all three Archery feats. There's no way to sculpt opposition that is competitive against the dedicate and dilletente Archer - they are different by most of the fucking die!

If you want your game to be balanced on characters being able to plausible have or not have a particular bonus, that bonus has to be small. Otherwise the RNG will be broken and you can't do it. Things that work like 3e Feats have to be trivial, because if they aren't trivial the game has to be balanced against the players having the "right ones" or the "wrong ones" and can't be both. But it's virtually inevitable that in RPG groups where players make their own characters that the level of optimization will be different for different characters.

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Post by Foxwarrior »

And then, because you give out tiny feats like candy, and people keep writing more feats, at some point you have 10 archery feats, and the archer player takes all 10 of them, and has a net +10 over people who just want to use a bow sometimes.

cont.: but now instead of having two nice +5 feats with situations worth keeping track of, you have ten +1 feats, each with slightly different situations in which they apply, and the game crashes to a halt.
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Post by Ancient History »

As a caveat to what Frank is saying, the alternative is for feats that don't give bonuses at all. Feats like Blind Fight, Die Hard, and Improved Feint give the players expanded options, but not specific numerical bonuses. Feats like Combat Expertise let you play around with numbers, but again without giving explicit bonuses - you're just trading off 1-for-1 on a case-by-case basis, up to a limit.

D&D3 explicitly didn't follow that design philosophy, there are a shitload of feats that give bonuses of various sizes to different actions. Many of them are incredibly minor in the grand scheme of things, but there are other feats and abilities that build off of those actions and so some subset of your characters are going to want them. And there are also a shit ton of false paths. Case in point: most of the feats that derive from Combat Expertise have nothing to do with what Combat Expertise itself does.

The problem you're going to run into is like someone that tries to build an elf deck in Magic: the Gathering by putting every "elf" card they own together in a deck - just because they all say "elf" doesn't mean they actually go together very well, and just because you spend a lot of time and effort making a character with the full Combat Expertise feat chain doesn't make your character super-good - because the feats themselves don't interact. There's no synergy between Combat Expertise and Improved Feint or Improved Disarm. Yeah, you get a pile of bonuses to various combat actions, but those actions don't really go together into specific combos, like doing a feint then grabbing your opponent's weapon and stabbing them with it.

So one of the problems with feats isn't just bundling them together into synergistic effects, but preventing well-intentioned idiots from taking feats that don't provide comparable benefits. And that's super tricky, as Frank pointed out.
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Post by maglag »

Ancient History wrote:
Steely Resolve (Ex): Your supreme dedication and intense focus allow you to temporarily set aside the pain and hindering effects of injuries. When an opponent strikes you, the injury does not immediately affect you.
This is kind of weird, in that you might ask "what's the point?" It lets you fight for one round longer, maybe. It's not quite the same as giving you temporary extra hit points like in a barbarian's rage, although I think that was the immediate mechanical forebear....and then they wanted to make a whole thing.
Furious Counterstrike (Ex): You can channel the pain of your injuries into a boiling rage that lets you lash out at your enemies with renewed vigor and power. Each attack that strikes you only pushes you onward to greater glory. During your turn, you gain a bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls equal to the current value of your delayed damage pool (see steely resolve, above) divided by 5, and rounding down (minimum +1). You can only gain a maximum bonus on attack rolls and damage rolls of +6 from furious counterstrike.
So, while you're getting wrecked (because let's remember, to max out that sweet +6 bonus you have to be getting 30 points of damage in a round at level 20), you also gain a temporary bonus. I'm not sure they thought out the timing of this very well, since the sequence of events seems to be:
Round 1
Turn 1: Kobold has initiative. Kobold stabs you in the balls. (5 points of damage tucked into your Delayed Damage Pool, +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls.)

Turn 2: Fueled by pain and fury, the Crusader stabs the Kobold in its balls.

At the end of their turn, the Crusader takes the 5 damage, the delayed damage pool resets to 0. Bonus disappears.

Round 2
Turn 1: Kobold has initiative. Kobold stabs you in the balls. <repeat until one of you is dead>
Thing is, the crusader has an exclusive school full of vampiric effects that heal you when you hurt stuff so that extra round before the damage applies makes all the difference as it gives the crusader a chance to patch themselves up and what happens is something more like:
Round 1
Turn 1: Kobold has initiative. Kobold stabs you in the balls. (5 points of damage tucked into your Delayed Damage Pool, +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls.)

Turn 2: Fueled by pain and fury, the Crusader stabs the Kobold in its balls , self-heals and removes the damage from the delayed damage pool.

At the end of their turn, the Crusader takes the 5 damage, the delayed damage pool resets to 0. Bonus disappears. Delayed damage pool already empty so crusader still at full.

Round 2
Turn 1: Kobold has initiative. Kobold stabs you in the balls. <repeat until one of you is all the kobolds are dead>
Really crusaders are crazy tanky with Steely Resolve+vampiric maneuvers, and specially at low levels they can just chew through mooks all day long without pausing, in particular since they auto-recover their maneuvers, randomness be damned. The feat that grants one extra readied maneuver is basically an auto-take.
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Post by Koumei »

When I was doing volunteer work, I met someone just out of highschool who was getting into D&D and... thankfully he explained his favourite things before I got to the point of offering to run a game, because he has played "two Paladins and a Fighter that was played like a Paladin, all as Crusaders out to take the Holy Land from the Saracens". And that weirded me out. A lot.
Ancient History wrote:As a caveat to what Frank is saying, the alternative is for feats that don't give bonuses at all. Feats like Blind Fight, Die Hard, and Improved Feint give the players expanded options, but not specific numerical bonuses.
You're still falling into a problem (albeit lesser) where if a regular archer character takes Blind Fight people say "okay... was there nothing better available?" and if a close combat character who took the "you can cast Darkness. No you don't ignore your own Darkness." ability doesn't take Blind Fight things get embarrassing. And Improved Feint is a feat you take if (and only if) you have some kind of useful ability used as a Standard Action that requires your foe be denied their Dex Bonus to AC.

I mean, at some point "Yeah, genius, don't take Improved Summoning if you can't summon, I can only offer so much advice" has to apply, but you want to avoid trap options, redundancies, overpowered combinations and absolutely required selections.
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Post by Orca »

The warblade getting to swap their focus/spec feats to a new weapon is an obvious workaround to the 'This greataxe we took off the undead antipaladin would be cool, but my feats are for a greatsword' annoyance that D&D players have run into many times.

The name crusader having unfortunate connotations is something that at least some people are simply too unaware of other cultures to know about. I've had such conversations online, I know that people can refuse to believe that others may still care about the Crusades or whatever (but God forbid you should diss the American Civil War.)
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Post by Thaluikhain »

Eh, looking at this more from a AD&D perspective, bit old fashioned me, when I think about a fighter but with magic stuff, my first thought would be the Paladin. Couldn't you just give the Paladin more abilities to make it competitive with wizardy types, keep the concept, just expand and improve it? And given that Paladin abilities tend to be more focused on demons and undead than say, lobbing fireballs, you could adjust the proportion of demons and undead to balance Paladins with fireball mages.

Though, you are stuck at lawful good, you'd might end up cheapening the concept by letting evil players have their version (and neutrals, or just not allow neutral players).

EDIT: Also, tags.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

Thaluikhain wrote:Eh, looking at this more from a AD&D perspective, bit old fashioned me, when I think about a fighter but with magic stuff, my first thought would be the Paladin. Couldn't you just give the Paladin more abilities to make it competitive with wizardy types, keep the concept, just expand and improve it? And given that Paladin abilities tend to be more focused on demons and undead than say, lobbing fireballs, you could adjust the proportion of demons and undead to balance Paladins with fireball mages.

Though, you are stuck at lawful good, you'd might end up cheapening the concept by letting evil players have their version (and neutrals, or just not allow neutral players).

EDIT: Also, tags.
How does that fix the fighter?
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Post by JonSetanta »

I love ToB, and adore this OSSR. Thank you for the wonderful Christmas/Hannukah gift you two!


I say, fully embrace the inner weeb and start making abilities that mimic your favorite anime warriors. Shonen Jump is a great source for this but I read manga and manhwa online.

The Breaker series is one of my favorites, great inspiration for Monks, but there are some weapon users in there too.

Tenjho Tenge has many weapon users and chi-powers that border on magical right up to bringing the dead back to life and animating particles of perfume or dust into full telekinetic blades.

Mearls needs to read more manga. He's probably... not a martial artist anyway, judging from his appearance.
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