Demographics and Urban Fantasy

[Omegonthesane]

I was going to edit in another facetious line of "Van Helsing, why does your hunting kit include a 5 year old dressed as Superman?" but then Dean reminded me why, if I ever smoked enough crack to run a Vampire campaign, priority one would be jettisoning True Faith altogether.

[Pariah Dog]

If scientologists start making movies where zombies are naturally repelled by copies of Dianetics you shouldn't struggle to figure out how you can get that really great piece of worldbuilding in more of your stories.

The idea that christian symbols protect you from vampires because christianity is good for you should obviously be chucked. It's a valueless idea that was written into vampire myths by zealous christians which was then expanded by more accepting modern christians to the idea that all religion is good for you. It's a stupid notion that has never added anything to the concept of vampires because its only purpose in the narrative was demagoguery.

One of the things WW got right. 9 times out of 10 you could yank the holy symbol out of the guy's hand and beat him to death with it. It was only those with true faith in their beliefs who could repel vampires with a symbol, it was more just a focus for their faith than the symbol itself.

[Thaluikhain]

wasn't there a Doctor Who episode where a Soviet soldier could repel vampires using the symbol of a hammer and sickle?

"Curse of Fenric", a 7th doctor story towards the very end of old Doctor Who.

Also notable that:

he later gives the symbol away, and runs into the vampires again, they point out he's not got his symbol, but he says he's still got his faith, and it works. Ace and the Doctor also have faith in things so it works for them as well.

A priest repels vampires with a crucifix, but is unable to stop the vampires reminding him of all the German kids killed by British bombing and thus weakening his faith to the extent he can't repel them any more.

[Mask_De_H]

Someone denouncing religious demagoguery with a big red badge that says Atheist on their posts is funny. So is the idea of prospective Van Helsings keeping kids with them to drive back the monsters (which can also give a Monsters and Other Childish Things angle). Scientologists making movies about the power of Dianetics compelling you is no more or less crazy than anything else they do, either.

Generic faith, channeled properly and believed in strongly enough, is basically how 20th/21st century magic works anyway. It'd definitely make sense as a flavor of Muggle magic and probably make sense as a flavor of Witch. It's also a thing in Dresden Files, but since DF is some dude's Mage-focused oWoD fanfic, True Faith only (mostly) works for Jay-Hova.

[Username17]

Generic Faith is gibberish. Crucifixes work on Vampires in the stories the work in because those Vampires are the work of Satan. If your Vampires aren't literally the servants of literal Satan, there's no reason for them to care about crucifixes. And if they are, then there's no reason for them to care about any other holy symbols because they are specifically enemies of Jesus, not enemies of Buddha or whatever.

Similarly, Vampires can't cross running water in the stories where that applies because the Vampires in those stories are metaphorically contagion. If you aren't using your Vampires as a plague metaphor, there's no reason for them to care about running water.

In general, you should consider what your Vampires are supposed to be before figuring out what disadvantages would be remotely appropriate. And the thing with holding crucifixes out while in a state of grace is extremely specific to a kind of religious parable that doesn't have a lot of reach outside the Christian fellowship. And attempts to genericize it don't actually make any sense and aren't nearly as inoffensively group huggy as the people proposing them think they are. Non-Christians don't recognize the state of grace, because it's a nonsense concept outside the religious assumptions of the Christian faith.

If you say "In our setting, Buddhism works exactly like Christianity." that's offensive. It's offensive in a way that just having Jesus be the literal son of God who died and was reborn to forgive the sins of mankind in your setting wouldn't be. Having an explicitly Christian setting is fine if you want to do that. It's like Pence's decision to have one of the Jews For Jesus come out and pray for the victims of the synagogue attack at his campaign rally. That's super clueless and offensive, but just bringing out an actual up-front Christian minister to pray for people in a recent massacre wouldn't have been offensive or weird at all. Telling people that their religion is a subset of Christianity is cultural appropriation and deeply insulting. Telling stories about your own religion is simply normal and expected.

-Username17

[kzt]

I did mention that there was no there there in Laurel K. Hamilton's books. It's all plot, there are no underlying rules about how it works. And there was no exploration of 'OK, so x is true, what does that imply?' It's all "what is the most convenient way for this to work today?". However she did sell a lot of Urban Fantasy books.

[hyzmarca]

Generic Faith is gibberish. Crucifixes work on Vampires in the stories the work in because those Vampires are the work of Satan. If your Vampires aren't literally the servants of literal Satan, there's no reason for them to care about crucifixes. And if they are, then there's no reason for them to care about any other holy symbols because they are specifically enemies of Jesus, not enemies of Buddha or whatever.

"Generic Faith" works as an aspect of the victim that gives them defenses against vampires, rather than an objective truth. I'd put it in the same category as people who are in love being immune to seduction powers. If you try to make it a centerpiece of world-building it gets stupid. It probably shouldn't be setting vampires on fire from a distance, but it works as a quirky limitation

[Mask_De_H]

I was taking a backhanded shot at modern magical belief and didn't mean to be offensive.
The whole idea of Will is just generic faith that the universe will give you cake and blowjobs if you believe it hard enough (and do the right superstitious tics). Putting it like that, it does seem pretty shitty to people of all faiths.

Religious monster hunters are pretty cool though, and it'd be nice if they could use the symbols of their faith for magic, but that's a separate thing.

[Username17]

"Generic Faith" works as an aspect of the victim that gives them defenses against vampires, rather than an objective truth.

But it happens to work exactly like the Christian concept of the State of Grace that protects you from the forces of evil, and not at all like the Buddhist concept of enlightenment to the center of the eightfold path. It's all very well and good to pat yourself on the back for being open minded by claiming that all faiths work, but if all faiths work exactly like your faith you haven't actually done any outreach at all.

When nWoD said you could have any moral beliefs you wanted as long as they worked exactly like pre-modern Christian sin theory, that wasn't open minded or accepting of other cultures and beliefs. That was the other thing, where it aggressively dismissed and shat on other belief systems.

"You can believe in the teachings of Guru Nanak, as long as those teachings are indistinguishable from the teachings of Jesus" is not real open mindedness. It's fake open mindedness. People from different cultures and different religions actually believe different things, and having them all work the same way is dismissive and offensive.

-Username17

[Niles]

Similarly, Vampires can't cross running water in the stories where that applies because the Vampires in those stories are metaphorically contagion. If you aren't using your Vampires as a plague metaphor, there's no reason for them to care about running water.

You're probably right a good portion of the time but sometimes the undead (and or the devil) just can't cross property lines. In that case it's the same limit as keeps them from crossing the threshold of your house uninvited. also a reason to bury a murderer on the crossroads, it's a small space outside of everybodies real estate that minimizes the trouble they can cause if they come back.

yeah it's kinda alien and stupid sounding but it seems to be a real thing.

[Jason]

But it happens to work exactly like the Christian concept of the State of Grace that protects you from the forces of evil, and not at all like the Buddhist concept of enlightenment to the center of the eightfold path. It's all very well and good to pat yourself on the back for being open minded by claiming that all faiths work, but if all faiths work exactly like your faith you haven't actually done any outreach at all.

You can also look at it from this perspective:

All religions older than scientology have some way to deal with evil spirits.

Christianity/Judaism/Islam - Prayers
Buddhism - Chanting Sutras
Shinto - Harae Rituals/Ofuda
Hinduism - Kirtan, Punja, Prayers
Taoism - Chanting, Blood Talismans

You can continue this list at your leisure. Fact remains, they are all tied to belief and granted protection. The type of protection varies, the nescessary gestures and rituals vary but the Basic concept remains because it is a deep psychological need.
It is not coincidental that religions all have exorcisms, it is a nescessity, part of their raison d'être. Beliefs in exorcism serve to relief their believers of anxiety in the face of uncertainty, a safety anchor to hold on to when all else around them seems to be in constant flux and out of their control.

In light of this context it does indeed make sense for "true faith" to offer protection against vampires.

[Korwin]

Similarly, Vampires can't cross running water in the stories where that applies because the Vampires in those stories are metaphorically contagion. If you aren't using your Vampires as a plague metaphor, there's no reason for them to care about running water.

You're probably right a good portion of the time but sometimes the undead (and or the devil) just can't cross property lines. In that case it's the same limit as keeps them from crossing the threshold of your house uninvited. also a reason to bury a murderer on the crossroads, it's a small space outside of everybodies real estate that minimizes the trouble they can cause if they come back.

yeah it's kinda alien and stupid sounding but it seems to be a real thing.

We had so many discussion in our Group (in D&D), about what is the definition of running water and if an bridge helps, if yes what about flying. If flying helps, why is that limitation even there?

[Omegonthesane]

gonna need some citations on that, 'cause it sure looks like you're trying to tell all religions that they work like Christianity as far as vampires are concerned

[Longes]

gonna need some citations on that, 'cause it sure looks like you're trying to tell all religions that they work like Christianity as far as vampires are concerned

I'm pretty sure that what Jason is saying is that most religions have magic spells for dealing with magic spirits and that in general being more pious makes those magic spells work better. The specifics of spells and spirits differ. Yes, a Christian might do a necromantic ritual to have an ancestor spirit channel YHVH's power against the spawn of Satan, and a Kannushi might place an order to the local spirit police asking for protection from the spirit mobsters, and they won't recognize each other's rituals as being anything alike.

But they are still both magic rituals for protection from magic spirits.

[Omegonthesane]

Similarly, Vampires can't cross running water in the stories where that applies because the Vampires in those stories are metaphorically contagion. If you aren't using your Vampires as a plague metaphor, there's no reason for them to care about running water.

You're probably right a good portion of the time but sometimes the undead (and or the devil) just can't cross property lines. In that case it's the same limit as keeps them from crossing the threshold of your house uninvited. also a reason to bury a murderer on the crossroads, it's a small space outside of everybodies real estate that minimizes the trouble they can cause if they come back.

yeah it's kinda alien and stupid sounding but it seems to be a real thing.

We had so many discussion in our Group (in D&D), about what is the definition of running water and if an bridge helps, if yes what about flying. If flying helps, why is that limitation even there?

If copying the Bram Stoker "original", flying doesn't help and bridges only allow your servants to physically carry your coffin across - Drac had to be loaded as cargo onto and off the ship from Transylvania to London.

[Niles]

You're probably right a good portion of the time but sometimes the undead (and or the devil) just can't cross property lines. In that case it's the same limit as keeps them from crossing the threshold of your house uninvited. also a reason to bury a murderer on the crossroads, it's a small space outside of everybodies real estate that minimizes the trouble they can cause if they come back.

yeah it's kinda alien and stupid sounding but it seems to be a real thing.

We had so many discussion in our Group (in D&D), about what is the definition of running water and if an bridge helps, if yes what about flying. If flying helps, why is that limitation even there?

If copying the Bram Stoker "original", flying doesn't help and bridges only allow your servants to physically carry your coffin across - Drac had to be loaded as cargo onto and off the ship from Transylvania to London.

Also look at the Headless Horseman, of course a bridge doesn't heip.

[Jason]

gonna need some citations on that, 'cause it sure looks like you're trying to tell all religions that they work like Christianity as far as vampires are concerned

Longes hit the nail on the head. Of course their exorcisms don't work the same, but they all have magical rituals to deal with evil presences that are fueled by the belief of the Person performing them.

In regards to citations:

Exorcism in General (Wikipedia)
Buddhist Mantras to exorcise evil Spirits
Jewish Exorcism
Muslim Exorcism (Wikipedia)
Shinto Exorcism

I am not making a specific scientific claim here, rather a general observation and a conclusion based on my own professional experience and knowledge. Is there a chance that a fringe religion exists without any form of exorcism? There might. It's unlikely for old religions, though. The psychological need for a means to combat uncertainty and to deal with traumatic experiences and hardship is too central to human experience not to be a major part of any religious underpinnings. Even scientology has it's form of exorcism through auditing, to cleanse you from those pesky thetans.

So, in short: part of the purpose of religion is to provide safety and protection from the uncertainties of life, which are often described as malignant entities from which believers need protection through their faith. Whether that is through summoning the power of their loa, through trapping the entity in a physical object, through evocing the power of archangels, through citing holy scripture or through enlightened conviction is besides the point and irrelevant in regards to "true belief" as a mechanical representation of this observable fact.
They all have means of protection against evil spirits and all of those means of protection work stronger, the more faithful their practitioner is.

[Longes]

fueled by the belief of the Person performing them.

I think this is where people lose you. This is all very Mage the Ascension/Unknown Armies style postmodernism. Actual Christians and Shintoists will of course tell you that belief has nothing to do with anything - Christian ancestor spirits objectively exist and you can cash in your God Boy Points for them to do favors for you, and Shintoists will tell you that they are just following proper protocol and asking the correct authority for dealing with the problem.

"Belief" would only come into play when you are developing a universal magic system that covers everyone, and will offend everyone.

[Jason]

fueled by the belief of the Person performing them.

I think this is where people lose you. This is all very Mage the Ascension/Unknown Armies style postmodernism. Actual Christians and Shintoists will of course tell you that belief has nothing to do with anything - Christian ancestor spirits objectively exist and you can cash in your God Boy Points for them to do favors for you, and Shintoists will tell you that they are just following proper protocol and asking the correct authority for dealing with the problem.

That's a fair Point. I could use "fervent practice" instead of "belief" but it's just semantics when all we talk about is a mechanical representation of the various different practices that achieve the same end goal.
Even within their own tradition, if an exorcism would fail, even though the practitioner used the "proper method"(TM) the blame usually falls to "your god/deity/kami is upset with you and therefore declines to help", which is essentially a faith statement, or they fall into the category of "you must have done something wrong", which is a mechanical Statement.

You can cover both those mases with a "faith" roll. Higher faith means higher success chance, failure at high faith means failure to execute.

Does it really matter whether you call it "true faith", "fervent practice", "knowledge: religion" or "Connection"?

"Belief" would only come into play when you are developing a universal magic system that covers everyone, and will offend everyone.

But isn't this what we are talking about in this context? A universal mechanic to deal with vampire-repellants? I doubt it would serve a meaningful purpose in a game System to add multiple mechanics that all achieve the exact same goal.
Also, if we are at a point where we generalize "vampires" into one category it feels bizarre not to treat religious belief as one category, either. Why have two different levels of abstraction? Why go into minute detail when it comes to religion but at the same time state "vampires are..."?

P.S.: I apologize for my horrendous capitalization and the resulting amount of nescessary edits. My browser at work is driving me insane with is "spell checking", randomly capitalizing words with no sense or Guideline. I hope it remains readable.

[Omegonthesane]

Yeah any syncretic set of underlying physics is going to offend true believers. Speaking for myself, left unchecked I tend to bias in favour of contradicting true believers as an end in itself rather than as an acceptable cost of good design, but that isn't the same as thinking it's something that should end up in the final product.

Having now satisfactorily* established that we could add a paragraph to explain how shoehorning in True Faith isn't automatically cultural appropriation depending on how you do it, you then still haven't answered why we should want to include it at all. What does it add to vampire stories if you can repel them by having strong convictions and optionally waving around a symbol of those convictions while chanting magic words?

I mean come to think of it there probably are stories you could tell where vampires fear anyone who really and truly believes in something nigh regardless of what the thing is, but that's probably if your vampires are capitalists or feudal lords rather than contagion or drug addiction.

* I'm not 100% on the idea that most religions have a thing you do to banish immaterial spirits adequately explains why such meditations should impact flesh and blood vampires, but it's close enough for government work

[Jason]

Having now satisfactorily* established that we could add a paragraph to explain how shoehorning in True Faith isn't automatically cultural appropriation depending on how you do it, you then still haven't answered why we should want to include it at all. What does it add to vampire stories if you can repel them by having strong convictions and optionally waving around a symbol of those convictions while chanting magic words?

It depends of what theme you're going for. Do you want priest able to repell vampires with their holy cross? Do you want Onmyouji to banish vampires with Magic sigils? Do you want loa to provide a magical barrier against the attacks of a vampire?
All those stories appear in common folklore in regions across the globe. Depending on how close to actual folklore you wish to theme your game (a question quite relevant to the subject of urban fantasy) you Need mechanics to facilitate those stories.
You can choose to ignore them, you can create your own mythology, you can mash several mythologies all together, that's up to you as the designer. But if you want common Folklore to work, even in part, you Need mechanical representations for those story effects.

I was working of the base of a global urban fantasy Setting trying to remain as close to regional folklore as possible. That requires some abstraction to remain feasible and as such combining several effects that are similar in outcome into one mechanic makes sense.
You can, of course go into more detail, describe several functionally different types of vampires, with different strengths and weaknessess, even to specific religious practices and beliefs and in such a case it would indeed make sense to provide different systems for each. At that point it becomes a question of return on investment, though.

Ultimately, I see no ideal solution, as it's all highly depenent on the thematic goal you are aiming for. I just objected to the outright refusal of the idea on the grounds of "it's culturally offensive", where it's not nescessarily.

[Thaluikhain]

If it's just belief, can the vampires that really believe in culling the lesser races dominate the ones that are ambivalent?

[Longes]

YHaving now satisfactorily* established that we could add a paragraph to explain how shoehorning in True Faith isn't automatically cultural appropriation depending on how you do it, you then still haven't answered why we should want to include it at all. What does it add to vampire stories if you can repel them by having strong convictions and optionally waving around a symbol of those convictions while chanting magic words?

Because a priest holding off a vampire with a cross is badass and established fiction and some people will want to do that.

[Korwin]

We had so many discussion in our Group (in D&D), about what is the definition of running water and if an bridge helps, if yes what about flying. If flying helps, why is that limitation even there?

If copying the Bram Stoker "original", flying doesn't help and bridges only allow your servants to physically carry your coffin across - Drac had to be loaded as cargo onto and off the ship from Transylvania to London.

Also look at the Headless Horseman, of course a bridge doesn't heip.

Underground river, how deep does he have to be?

Edit:
Also, is this running water?
https://www.photocase.de/fotos/780381-s ... stock-foto

[Longes]

If copying the Bram Stoker "original", flying doesn't help and bridges only allow your servants to physically carry your coffin across - Drac had to be loaded as cargo onto and off the ship from Transylvania to London.

Also look at the Headless Horseman, of course a bridge doesn't heip.

Underground river, how deep does he have to be?

Edit:
Also, is this running water?
https://www.photocase.de/fotos/780381-s ... stock-foto

The general rule seems to be that a vampire can not cross running water willingly and of his own power.

But really you are getting into the extremely modern comparative mythology rule sussing that doesn't show up in actual mythology.