D&D 3.X/Pathfailure Making Crafting Less Retarded

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:21 pm

So I was writing an excessively long e-mail bitching at my DM about the crafting rules in Pathfinder and I remembered that this place exists.

So anyway yeah, it looks like now I'm playing Pathfinder. It's not my first choice. It's not even my first choice for a flavor of D&D (I still prefer 3.5), but it is the only thing anyone that will game with me is playing so I've got to grin and bear it for now.

I made a 5th Level Catfolk Alchemist. Alchemist in general seems like a pretty solid class but that might be an idiotic statement--I have not been thinking about charop in D&D for a very long time. I like how they can leave extract slots open to prepare whatever is needed, it sort of struck me as a kind of best of both worlds between Wizard prepared casting and Sorcerer spontaneous casting, although obviously it's limited by their spell list which is limited to things you could make extracts (potions) of. For offense they have a separate pool of bombs--I get nine firebombs per day in addition to my extracts. The bombs improve in damage and in other ways you choose as you go up in level, much like a Warlock's Eldritch Blast except they're splash attacks instead of ranged touch. You can add your relevant "casting" stat, your Int bonus, to the damage you do with any thrown splash weapon which is nice, and you get Throw Anything at first level. And then you get mutagens, which are kind of eh, but honestly without them it seemed to me like a decent enough class.

But unfortunately what the Alchemist class absolutely CANNOT do in any reasonable manner is CRAFT ALCHEMICAL ITEMS.

What follows is an excerpt from my e-mail to my DM. Now 75% of the gaming I've done with this guy I've been the GM and more importantly he's a big fan of my games, otherwise I wouldn't be using quite such a Dennish tone with him (cause his PF games are the only game in town, so to speak, even though they're not actually IN town, but in any case I don't want to get booted or ragequit). Apologies, this is kind of long.

And now Gest tries to use his Craft Alchemy to craft alchemical items and finds out that crafting in PF is just as much of a trash fire in 3.5.

Pathfinder's rules for crafting items.
I immediately see that the PF rules for crafting your own items haven't changed much from D&D's rules for crafting your own items, which as I recall were a thousand or so words that essentially amounted to "you want to craft your own items? Well FUCK YOU, BUDDY, YOU CAN'T DO THAT." (Warning, Tasteful Understated Nerdrage ahead.)

---

1. Find the item's price in silver pieces (1 gp = 10 sp).
2. Find the item's DC from Table 4-4.
3. Pay 1/3rd of the item's price for the raw material cost.
4. Make an appropriate craft Check representing ONE WEEK'S worth of work. If the check succeeds, multiply your check result by the DC. If the result x the DC equals the price of the item in sp, then you've completed the item. OR make an appropriate Craft check bonus, multiply by DC, and divide by seven if working by the day.

Gest begins crafting alchemical items and poisons. If I can take a 20 on this, that will change all check results to 39 which will would result in an alternate outcome described below.

My Swift Alchemy class feature says it takes me "half the time" to make alchemical items. I'm not really sure how to apply that to the crafting system. I guess I will treat it as letting me make a craft check twice per day. That seems the most logical.

---

Day One, Morning: 3 gp, 3 sp, 3 cp towards Flask of Acid. Rolled 19 + 19 = 38 x 10 = 380 sp/7 = 54 sp towards a flask of acid.
Day One, Afternoon: 2 + 19 = 21 x 10 = 210 sp/7 = 30 sp. 84/100sp of crafting towards making a 10 gp flask of avid. My 5TH LEVEL ALCHEMIST WITH MAX RANKS IN CRAFT ALCHEMY has just spent his entire day making PART of a 10 gp alchemical item. With a nat 19. SAD.
Day Two, Morning: 4 + 19 = 23 x 10 = 230 sp/7 = 32 sp. Yay. He has finally completed a 10gp flask of fucking acid.
Day Two, Afternoon: Aw Jeez. 16 gp, 6 sp, 6 cp towards a flask of antitoxin. 7 + 19 = 26 * DC 25 = 650/7 Sp = 93 sp towards making a single 50 gp vial of antitoxin. ALMOST A FIFTH OF THE WAY THERE!!
Day Three, Morning: 8 + 19 = 27 * DC 25 = 675/7 Sp = 189/500 of the way towards making a single vial of anti-toxin. ALMOST TWO FIFTHS.
Day Three, Afternoon: 9 + 19 = 28 * DC 25 = 700/7 so = 289/500 towards making a single 50 gp vial of anti-toxin. Oooh, more than halfway! Ooo la-la. Two days of work and I've almost built the ability to give a single character a +5 Fort save towards poisons they may or may not get stuck with in the next hour after drinking it! Bravissimo! Surely this class is balanced with the Wizard, the Druid, the Cleric, or even the FUCKING FIGHTER!
Day Four, Morning: : 7 + 19 = 26 * DC 25 = 650/7 = 382/500 towards making an antitoxin. A FULL WEEK of plying his trade and my Fifth Level Alchemist with a +19 Alchemy Bonus has made a 10 gp flask of acid and almost 80% of a 50 gp antitoxin! Wow!!!
Day Four, Afternoon: Day Eight: 13 + 19 = 32 * DC 25 = 800/7 = +114 Sp = 496/500 towards making an antitoxin. Oh...so close yet so far.
Day Five, Morning: 8 + 19 = 27 * DC 25 = 675/7 Sp = +96 Sp = Three days of work and I've managed to make a 50 gp antitoxin! Ooh la la!
Day Five, Afternoon: Alright, going to attempt to make something I really want. Time to stop bitching and make some poisons. Oh wait...poisons have no Craft DC. Um...so I can't...make...poisons? WTF? I have Poison Use as a class feature. Swift Alchemy lets me poison a weapon as a move action. Next level I get swift poisoning which lets me poison a weapon as a swift action. I have Alchemy +19 (Int + 4 plus 8 ranks (max) + class level + 2 for alchemy lab). Why the FUCK can't I make poisons???? Oh okay...okay...the Craft DC equals the fort save. I see it now. Let's get poisoning! Hmm...which one. Blue whinnis isn't going to help me out against anything that doesn't have a crap fort save or roll really badly, but a young poisoner's gotta start somewhere.
40 gp for raw materials to get started. Nat 1. Loverly. I'd have poisoned myself if I didn't have Poison Use! 1 + 19 = 20 * DC 14 = 40/1200 sp towards a complete dose of Blue Whinnis. Le sigh.
Day Six, Morning: 7 + 19 = 26 * DC 14 = 364/7 = +52sp = 92/1200 sp towards a complete dose of Blue Whinnis. Wow.
Day Six, Afternoon: 15 + 19 = 34 * DC 14 = 476/7 = + 160/1200 sp towards a complete dose of Blue Whinnis.
Day Seven, Morning: 7 + 19 = 26 * DC 14 = 365/7 = +52so = 212/1200 sp towards a complete dose of Blue Whinnis.
Day Seven, Afternoon: 18 + 29 = 37 * DC 14 = 518/7 = +74 sp = 286/1200 sp towards a complete dose of Blue Whinis.

So let's review. In a FULL WEEK of plying his trade, my Level 5 Alchemist with a +19 Craft (Alchemy) bonus has managed to make: a single 10 gp flash of acid, a single 50 gp antitoxin, and is ALMOST 25% of the way towards completing a single dose of a basic poison with a Fortitude save of 14. SOMETHING IS VERY WRONG HERE!!!! We need some house rules STAT!

SERIOUSLY, IF THIS WAS HOW ALCHEMY WORKED, ABSALOM WOULD FALL APART. The average alchemist running a shop full of infinite alchemist's fire, smokesticks, tindertwigs, tanglefoot bags, and thunderstones for you to buy doesn't have my absurd +19 bonus. And he is most likely an Expert, so he definitely doesn't have Swift Alchemy. With a +10 bonus, an alchemist can make two flasks of acid per week, and that's it. How the fuck is that going to keep up with the demand from adventurers? It isn't!!

Day Eight, Morning: 7 + 19 = 26 * DC 14 = 364/7 = +52 sp = 338/1200 sp towards a dose of Blue Whinnis.
Day Eight, Afternoon: 14 + 19 = 33 * DC 14 = 462/7 = +66 sp = 404/1200 sp towards a dose of Blue Whinnis.
Day Nine, Morning: 17 + 19 = 36 * DC 14 = 504/7 = +72 sp = 476/1200 towards a dose of Blue Whinnis.
Day Nine, Afternoon: 10 + 19 = 29 * DC 14 = 406/7 = +58 sp = 534/1200 towards a dose of Blue Whinnis.
Day Ten, Morning: 10 + 19 = 29 * DC 14 = 406/7 = +58 sp = 592/1200 towards a dose of Blue Whinnis. Holy assfucking shit, four and a half days and I am ALMOST HALFWAY to making a poison with a Fort Save DC of 14.
Day Ten, Afternoon: NAT 20 + 19 = 39 * DC 14 = 546/7 = +78 sp = 670/1200. With the BEST POSSIBLE ROLL, a character with Craft (Alchemy) +19 can produce a single dose of mediocre poison at a rate of +6.5% per day.
Day Eleven, Morning: 3 + 19 = 22 * DC 14 = 308/7 = +44 sp = 714/1200
Day Eleven, Afternoon: 3 + 19 = 22 * DC 14 = 308/7 = +44 sp = 758/1200
Day Twelve, Morning: NAT 20 + 19 = 39 * DC 14 = 546/7 = +78 sp = 836/1200
Day Twelve, Afternoon: 19 + 19 = 38 * DC 14 = 532/7 - + 76 sp = 912/1200
Day Thirteen, Morning: 15 + 19 = 34 * 14 = 476 = +68 sp = 980/1200
Day Thirteen, Afternoon: 13 + 19 = 32 * 14 = 448/7 = +64 sp = 1044/1200
Day Fourteen, Morning: 11 + 19 = 30 * 14 = 420/7 = +60 sp = 1104/1200
Day Fourteen, Afternoon: 10 + 19 = 29 * 14 = 406/7= +58sp = 1162/1200

ONCE AGAIN, LET'S REVIEW: My 5th Level alchemist with max ranks in Craft (Alchemy) and access to an alchemist's laboratory has now spent an entire WEEK trying to finish a SINGLE DOSE of a mediocre poison he had already been working on for two and a half days...AND FAILED. For this failure I have been required to do ALL OF THE ABOVE math and book keeping. If I had just rolled for Blue Whinnis as a weekly check, I'd have gotten:

First Half Of Week: 19 + 19 = 38 * 14 = 532/1200 Sp towards 1 Dose Blue Whinnis
Second Half of Week: 1 + 19 = 20 * 14 = +280 Sp = 812/1200

Less dice rolling, less math, still just as fail. We are beginning to see the problem, yes?

Day Fifteen, Morning: 11 + 19 = 30 * 14 = 420/7 = +60 sp = GLORY GLORY HALLELUJAH it only took me 10 Days but I made a single fucking dose of poison that probably won't even work against a level-appropriate enemy.
Day Fifteen, Afternoon: Hey, that ultimate equipment guide has got a lot of cool alchemical stuff. Let's make something from there. Hmm...meditation tea sounds good, I do have a very weak Will save. And it's just 30 gp. So, 10 gp of raw materials spent. Nat 1 + 19 = 20 * DC 20 = 400/7 = 57/300 sp towards making meditation tea.
Day Sixteen, Morning: 5 + 19 = 24 * DC 20 = 480/7 = +68 sp = 125/300 sp towards tea.
Day Sixteen, Afternoon: 13 + 19 = 32 * DC 20 = 640/7 = +91 sp = 216/300 sp towards tea.
Day Seventeen, Morning: 7 + 19 = 26 * DC 20 = 520/7 = +74 sp = 290/300 sp towards tea. So close, yet so far.
Day Seventeen, Afternoon: 10 + 19 = 29 * DC 20 = 580/7 = +82 sp = Two and a half days of effort, one cup of Meditation Tea, and an extremely short lived one time +2 alchemical bonus to saves against mind-affecting spells.

Day 18: Gest realizes you are not allowed to craft items in Pathfinder, and goes to just buy the rest of the stuff he wants like he didn't have a +19 bonus in Craft Alchemy.

---Alternate Outcome (Not Good, Or Even Balanced, But A Little Better)---

Assuming we allow Take 20 every day (which I believe is NOT RAW):
Day 1A +390/7 = + 55sp. 55/100 Acid Flask.
Day 1B +390/7= +55 sp. Acid Flask done.
Day 2A: 39 * 25 = 975/7 = +139 sp. 139/500 Antitoxin.
Day 2B: 39 * 25 = 975/7 = +139 sp. 278/500 Antitoxin.
Day 3A: 39 * 25 = 975/7 = +139 sp. 417/500 Antitoxin.
Day 3B 39 * 25 = 975/7 = +139 sp. Antitoxin done.
Day 4A: 39 * 14 = 546/7 = 78/1200 sp towards Blue Whinnis
Day 4B: 39 * 14 = 546/7 = +78 sp towards Blue Whinnis
Day 5A: 39 * 14 = 546/7 = +78 sp towards Blue Whinnis
Day 5B: 39 * 14 = 546/7 = +78 sp towards Blue Whinnis.
Day 6A: 39 * 14 = 546/7 = +78 sp towards Blue Whinnis
Day 6B: 39 * 14 = 546/7 = +78 sp towards Blue Whinnis
Day 7A: 39 * 14 = 546/7 = +78 sp towards Blue Whinnis.
Day 7B: 39 * 14 = 546/7 = + 78 sp towards Blue Whinnis. At end of week: 624/1200 towards Blue Whinnis.

Day 8A + 78 sp towards Blue Whinnis.
Day 8B + 78 sp towards Blue Whinnis.
Day 9A + 78 sp towards Blue Whinnis
Day 9B + 78 sp towards Blue Whinnis
Day 10A +78 sp towards Blue Whinnis
Day 10B +78 sp towards Blue Whinnis
Day 11A +78 sp towards Blue Whinnis
Day 11B +78 sp towards Blue Whinnnis and it's finally done. So even with the house rule of taking 20...my Alchemist still spent 8 GODDAMN DAYS to make a single dose of an underwhelming poison that will almost certainly not work on level appropriate enemies.
Day 12A : 39 * 20 = 780/7 = 111/300 Meditation Tea.
Day 12B: +111 sp towards Meditation Tea.
Day 13A: +111 sp towards Meditation Tea. Meditation Tea Complete.
Day 13B: You know, that Suspiraedaemon we killed was tough. Wish I had some more reliable way to harm evil outsiders than my CL1 wand of Magic Missile. Ah ha! Holy water. Oh....even though Holy Water is classified as an alchemical item in the UEG, looks like Alchemists can't actually make it. You just need to cast bless water on regular water. So this is an alchemical item that clerics and paladins can make, but alchemists can't. Groovy. Well in that case back to fucking poison. As we've established, a HIGHER target number seems to get an item done faster. Let me cross-reference the highest Fort Save DC for a poison with the lowest cost. Dragon Bile is tempting but Purple Worm Poison hits the sweet spot with a Save DC of 24 and a cost of 700 gp. I'll lay out the 233 gold, 3 silver, and 3 copper for raw materials.
Day 14A: +134 sp towards PWP.
Day 14B +134 sp towards PWP.
Day 15A: +134 sp towards PWP.
Day 15B: +134 sp towards PWP.
Day 16A: +134 sp towards PWP.
Day 16B: +134 sp towards PWP
Day 17A: +134 sp towards PWP.
Day 17B: +134 sp towards PWP
Day 18A: +134 sp towards PWP
Day 18B: +134 sp towards PWP
Day 19A: +134 sp towards PWP.
Day 19B: +134 sp towards PWP.
Day 20A: +134 sp towards PWP.
Day 20B: +134 sp towards PWP.
Day 21A: +134 sp towards PWP.
Day 21B: +134 sp towards PWP leaving me 1,876/7000 towards PWP. Extrapolating, using the weekly rate, I get 1,872 the second week and each week thereafter. It takes an even month to craft a SINGLE DOSE of a moderately dangerous poison. And I don't know if this game is going to be downtime city or something, but I've never played in or run a D&D campaign where you could reliably expect to have a month of downtime to do ANYTHING.

CRAFTING: HOW TO FIX?

I have a list of alchemical items/poisons I want to buy but I want to hold off to see if we can together come up with a houserule that makes crafting them myself a thing, considering it kind of seems like one of if not THE core feature of my class.

So, after all that... What is a good way to make crafting less absolutely fucked that my DM is likely to accept?

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:49 pm

You make a craft check. If you succeed you buy the item for half price. It takes an amount of time 1 week - 1 day for each five points you beat the DC by (ie, with +19 you take 10 for a 29 against DC 15 and save 2 days) before the item is ready. Each day you spend 1 hour working on it.

If you fail your check you spend 1 quarter the item cost and you get nothing. If you fail by 5 or more you can't try again until the item would be finished.

Trying something you're likely to fail gets expensive.

merxa · Post by **merxa** » Fri Oct 26, 2018 12:05 am

To fix crafting you pretty much need to go into home rules territory.

I let those with 5 ranks calculate value in gp instead of sp. 10 ranks calculate in pp.

Remember you can also add intervals of +10 to the DC to increase the multiplier. Typically you can take 10 but not 20 since there is a failure condition. For swift alchemy I double the resulting value created, it amounts to the same thing and makes the math easier.

You'll also want to take advantage of spells like Crafters fortune.

If your DM totally adverse to making a sweeping change you can beg him to let you use the unchained skill unlocks, hopefully without burning a feat. Good luck.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:29 am

What the!?

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Fri Oct 26, 2018 1:39 am

He's being pretty cool about it, he immediately realized it was a problem, his words:

Second, I'd put money on the design logic here being a reaction to the same kind of munchkinry that lead to PunPun or the commoner railgun, the logic here being that, no matter how you cook the numbers, no you don't have functionally infinite alchemist's fires, Dave. Clearly they've erred a bit too far on the other end. I'm going to do some digging and see what kinds of alternate systems have been proposed.

Typically you can take 10 but not 20 since there is a failure condition.

Right, poisons being one of the exceptions.

For swift alchemy I double the resulting value created, it amounts to the same thing and makes the math easier.

Yeah that is much easier, thanks/I feel dumb. Although it still (if done daily, which again in my experience is often the scale for downtime in which you would do things like crafting) requires you to multiply two integers, divide by seven and then multiply by two, it's really the first two operations that are the problem.

calculate value in gp instead of sp

This in and of (and by) itself is probably the fix I'd use if were the DM. I think that the margin of error on their math was just about literally tenfold.

deaddmwalking wrote:You make a craft check. If you succeed you buy the item for half price. It takes an amount of time 1 week - 1 day for each five points you beat the DC by (ie, with +19 you take 10 for a 29 against DC 15 and save 2 days) before the item is ready. Each day you spend 1 hour working on it.

If you fail your check you spend 1 quarter the item cost and you get nothing. If you fail by 5 or more you can't try again until the item would be finished.

Trying something you're likely to fail gets expensive.

I think my problem with this is...five days is still much too long for making stuff like single doses of poisons, alchemist's fire, antitoxins, etcetera. Stuff that is useful and desirable to have IN QUANTITY at low to medium-low levels. I think that for every 5 points you beat the DC by you get an additional item of the kind you're making (obviously adding a cap like 1,000 gold or something). Like in that case you'd get 2 extra Acid Flasks or whatever (well actually you'd get 3 extra because the DC for Acid Flask is 10 but that's neither here nor there). Actually I'd probably go so far as to combine the two. Because honestly a master alchemist taking a week to make three tanglefoot bags is also still pretty silly.

But replacing sp with gp seems really elegant in its simplicity.

EDIT: This is what I got from my DM and is apparently the official Paizo patch to their shitty shitty rules.

Basically, Paizo published an official alternate rules set in a GMs supplement because theirs were so bad

I think I can work with it:

Just gonna math out two examples to see if these end up more favorable to you: a Flask of Acid and that Blue Whinnis Poison, assuming average roll (i.e. taking 10)

Alternate crafting rules puts the Flask of Acid as a Normal item, which is DC15 and progresses at a base rate of 2 gp per day. I'm gonna rule that Swift Alchemy doubles this rate.Taking a 10 nets you a 29, 14 over the base DC. Each multiple of 5 over the base rate increases your progress by 100%, meaning that you build 2*2*3=12 GP worth of Acid Flask in one day, or one-and-a fifth. That's a fair bit faster. than the base method.

Re the Blue Whinnis poison: Fort/Craft DC of the poison is 14, base rate according to the revised rules is 32 gp/day - yup this is gonna be way faster
Taking a 10 nets you a 29 again, that's 15 over, meaning total progress is 32*2*4=256 GP of progress on a 120gp posion. You've got yourself 2 poisons and some change for a day's work

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:17 am

If you have a year of downtime can you craft enough poison and bombs or whatever to be higher than level appropriate in killiness

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Fri Oct 26, 2018 2:25 am

OgreBattle wrote:If you have a year of downtime can you craft enough poison and bombs or whatever to be higher than level appropriate in killiness

With infinite money.

As long as you can profit from your craft you should be able to accumulate enough to break the game, but there are no good economy rules.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Fri Oct 26, 2018 5:16 am

Huh, I was just futzing around with an alchemist who made 2k worth of alchemical items a day. On the other hand, that was level 15, so no one cares. I had stacked modifiers to get 280x craft speed on top of a +60 mod. The fact that a +60 mod earns you only 45gp per day is silly.

The real problem is that a flask of acid acid costs a week's average lifestyle. So, that's rent, food and taxes. Say $250 equivalent. The craft rules are made with the assumption that 100 gp is a lot of money, because to peasants, it is. However, this is terrible for adventurers.

Still better than profession though.

Neurosis · Post by **Neurosis** » Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:36 pm

Huh, I was just futzing around with an alchemist who made 2k worth of alchemical items a day. On the other hand, that was level 15, so no one cares. I had stacked modifiers to get 280x craft speed on top of a +60 mod. The fact that a +60 mod earns you only 45gp per day is silly.

Nice to know that my character potentially has this to look forward to. If you want to break down how you did this I'd be interested. If you had a +60 at level 15, chances are I can manage SOMETHING by Level 10 (assuming I live that long without ending up on the wrong side of a save or die) that will make my DM shit brix lol.

infected slut princess · Fri Oct 26, 2018 10:22 pm

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Sat Oct 27, 2018 5:28 am

Neurosis wrote:
Huh, I was just futzing around with an alchemist who made 2k worth of alchemical items a day. On the other hand, that was level 15, so no one cares. I had stacked modifiers to get 280x craft speed on top of a +60 mod. The fact that a +60 mod earns you only 45gp per day is silly.
Nice to know that my character potentially has this to look forward to. If you want to break down how you did this I'd be interested. If you had a +60 at level 15, chances are I can manage SOMETHING by Level 10 (assuming I live that long without ending up on the wrong side of a save or die) that will make my DM shit brix lol.

Valet archetype on tumor familiar doubles progress. Signature skill Craft doubles at 5 ranks and multiplies by an additional 7 at 15 ranks. Master Alchemist multiplies by 10, and multiplies again by your Int mod for poison. Swift Alchemy multiplies by another 2. Bonus was +14 Int with persistent mutagen, +18 ranks, +15 level from alchemist, +10 from Tears to Wine, +5 from Crafter's fortune, +4 for familiar (2 Cooperative Crafting, 2 aid another), +2 tool, +2 Master Alchemist, so +70 actually. Take 10 and bump DC to 80 for progress of 80*80*2*2*2 gp/day. (Or 14 times faster for poisons)

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:56 am

In general the original craft rules work fine relative to basic goods, craftsman skills and wages, and living costs. 3.0 had them all line up and they've carried through. Even armour is mostly OK. It's just the prices for most adventuring gear are anywhere from 10x to 1000x too high, to fit with treasure rewards and associated damage spells.

With poisons and traps in the high range there, any attempt to make them gets silly. Experts should absolutely turn out a thousand lethal doses of poison in a couple weeks. There are common leaves and flowers that just fucking kill people and making tasteless powders of them is just time and a few dead chickens away from a determined mind.

But then they built the alchemist class features to have costs associated with them, and yeah. Buy a wand of fireballs, and then another one, really.

--

Anyway, simple rule, use your skills to make as much as you want in a week, but pay full cost for the part of it that craft doesn't save you. So super crafting gets you 20gp free in a week or whatever, and however much else you spend is "you crafting it" but at full cost, and minimum extra spend is half what you got for free. Handwave the rest goes on extra candles, assistants, rushed component shipping, etc.

And that pathfinder extra-crafting fix too, earn even more free money.

nockermensch · Post by **nockermensch** » Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:16 pm

tussock wrote:In general the original craft rules work fine relative to basic goods, craftsman skills and wages, and living costs. 3.0 had them all line up and they've carried through. Even armour is mostly OK. It's just the prices for most adventuring gear are anywhere from 10x to 1000x too high, to fit with treasure rewards and associated damage spells.

Almost right.

The actual problem is that the craft rules fail to distinguish things that are expensive because they require many hours of manpower from those that are expensive because they're made from expensive inputs or because LOL, game balance reasons.

The designers also seemingly balanced the craft rules to arrive at the historically consistent result where it takes a master craftsman a couple of months to make a suit of full plate. The end result is crafters in D&D producing weapons and armor at about the right historical speeds, furniture a bit too quickly, clay jugs like they're industrial plants but being way too slow at producing things that adventurers actually need.

A fix for this requires at first going through all product lists deciding how much of every item's price is manpower and how much is an aggregate from rare components/game balance. Then the crafting time rules are adjusted to process just the manpower.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:54 am

There's the matter of medieval (and other) folks taking a lot longer over it when working with expensive materials. Expensive wood got turned into extremely ornate carved furnishings over quite a long time, and cheap wood got turned into cheap stools and benches really quickly. The clothes made from expensive furs, even silks, were much nicer and much harder to make than tunics made from wool.

That's still true with lots of stuff. But more where it doesn't now, jewellery has a weird austere thing going on with valuable materials, but eh, didn't used to.

--

Mostly, I see it as not nearly so much of a problem as the arbitrary huge prices on adventuring gear. Poisons, traps, spells, all vastly too high. I should have a list somewhere ...