Video Games

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Tue Aug 14, 2018 8:15 am

Pariah_Dog wrote:So he can go fuck right off. Especially when he starts inserting his politics into the article.

Protip: saying anything like this makes you look like an absolute fucking moron to anyone who doesn't think "how hard should we beat our women?" or whatever is one of the serious questions of today.

There is literally nothing untouched by politics. It was that way before you were born and it will be that way after you die. The tame, what-should-be-wholly-inoffensive assertion that black people are your equals is a political assertion. It is political in the sense that historically that was an issue which tore this country in half 1.5 times and it is political in the sense that it is currently topical what with targeted voter suppression, the nullification of the Voting Rights Act, and the honest-to-god public resurgence of white nationalism. "I don't think white people are superior to black people" is a political statement that will legitimately offend people.

People say "keep politics out of X" when their politics are regressive and terrible. Now, your politics are regressive and terrible, which is presumably why you're saying it. But I want you to know that outside of whatever dark hole you go to get lied to about how immigration is destroying the country or whatever, it doesn't work. It looks stupid. For fuck's sake, the act of speech itself is political, in that the question of when and what you should be allowed to criticize is a political question. Just ask China, or Russia, or Turkey, or Saudi Arabia, or our bill of rights. People outside of your bubble understand that politics is unavoidably in everything, and they understand that what you're actually saying, whether you know or not, is "my politics are the default and so you shouldn't say anything that makes me uncomfortable and we'll just call catering to me 'apolitical.'" It's just staggering self-unawareness and the egocentric demand that the world be sanitized for your consumption.

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Tue Aug 14, 2018 9:00 am

Thank you.

Myst is still ass, though.

Chamomile · Post by **Chamomile** » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:17 pm

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
Zaranthan wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:phone tiddy RPG Fate Grand Order's made 2 billion $$'s now, making it one of the most successful RPG's of all time (surpassing all elderscrolls games combined)
If you define "success" as "profit", then yes.
Profit is literally the only measure of success.

Profit is the only immediate measure of success (well, even then, you can aggregate review scores, depending on how many critics give them). A more reliable measure is how well something endures. Someone brought up Transformers. It's often hard for people to remember the plot of those movies as they're exiting the theater, which is perhaps as un-memorable as it is possible to be. On the other hand, most people who read the Harry Potter books as they came out and haven't ever read any of them all the way through since can still tell you the major plot points of most of the individual books. The original Star Wars trilogy remains in the public conscious decades after its original release, not just as the Star Wars universe, but as the specific plot and characters of those three films. Stories like Greek myth, Arthuriana, and the works of Shakespeare display a flaw of using this metric, because while those are all good, they're also cheating in that their durability is informed at least in part to having been codified as "famous classics" by our society. Shakespeare won't be dethroned by the first master of dialogue to legitimately do it better because he's now got a huge advantage just for being Shakespeare. So far as metrics for success go, though, this one is a lot more reliable than immediate profit, with the downside that you need to wait fifty years after release to make comparisons.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:27 pm

Whoa there buddy, pal, comrade . .
BAYFORMERS =/= TRANSFORMERS.
I still remember the animated movie.

Count Arioch the 28th · Tue Aug 14, 2018 3:50 pm

DSMatticus wrote:... "how hard should we beat our women?" or whatever is one of the serious questions of today.

That might be more of a question for Fetlife though.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Wed Aug 15, 2018 6:26 am

Transformers are mid-size plastic toys that jumped the shark when they re-released various classics that transformed MUCH WORSE than the originals but looked sleeker in robot form for no reason. I choose to not recall anything that happened since, but I'm pretty sure they still don't have a licensed vidya game.

I never quite get when people say "but you shouldn't be political". I mean, yeah, I played Doom when it was new, and politics at the time was talking about creating watch lists of people who played Doom, because they might all be crazy terrorists or whatever, which obviously was all fucking nuts, and saying so is political.

So obviously PEOPLE SHOULD BE POLITICAL, avoiding talking about that sort of thing because it was a political controversy at the time is creepy as fuck. Digging up lists of people in office who voted for and against shit like that is part of living in a democracy, memory hole it is the opposite, fascist bullshit.

We had a minister in NZ who stood up in parliament and started talking about Dihydrogen Monoxide, and how many people it was killing each year. And like, she stopped half way in because someone told her it meant water, but never forgetting that sort of thing is how future politicians are encouraged to be less credulous and actually investigate claims.

So you don't end up with politicians passing laws because Alex Jones says it's super important and no one else said otherwise because it was political. It's important to speak truth, all of it, even the uncomfortable bits.

Like, how even shitty, low-budget, violent, misogynistic crap like Duke Nukem probably didn't hurt anyone, and note it even had anti-authoritarian messages in it because it was trolling pretty much everyone. The cops are pigs, you see. And I still don't know what to make of Shadow Warrior all these years later, because satire is dead.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Wed Aug 15, 2018 8:58 am

Transformers got several officially licensed vidya by now O.o
War for Cybertron has had some excellent moments.
Sadly, i do not like the game principle, otherwise i would be playing that again and again.

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:24 am

Um, Transformers has had a bunch of video games, ever since the ol' Famicon days in Japan.

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Video_games

As for the political thing, I get enough of depressing shit in the real world. I want video games to be an escape from real life, thus I don't want real world issues to rear their ugly head while I'm blasting Mavericks or such not.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:45 am

Okay, but what's a political issue to you? Can you make a list of things that are political and you don't want them included or addressed or alluded to other than in very opaque metaphor, and a list of things that are apolitical and totally fine to go ham on?

Ignimortis · Post by **Ignimortis** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:39 am

DSMatticus wrote:
Pariah_Dog wrote:So he can go fuck right off. Especially when he starts inserting his politics into the article.
Protip: saying anything like this makes you look like an absolute fucking moron to anyone who doesn't think "how hard should we beat our women?" or whatever is one of the serious questions of today.

There is literally nothing untouched by politics. It was that way before you were born and it will be that way after you die. The tame, what-should-be-wholly-inoffensive assertion that black people are your equals is a political assertion. It is political in the sense that historically that was an issue which tore this country in half 1.5 times and it is political in the sense that it is currently topical what with targeted voter suppression, the nullification of the Voting Rights Act, and the honest-to-god public resurgence of white nationalism. "I don't think white people are superior to black people" is a political statement that will legitimately offend people.

People say "keep politics out of X" when their politics are regressive and terrible. Now, your politics are regressive and terrible, which is presumably why you're saying it. But I want you to know that outside of whatever dark hole you go to get lied to about how immigration is destroying the country or whatever, it doesn't work. It looks stupid. For fuck's sake, the act of speech itself is political, in that the question of when and what you should be allowed to criticize is a political question. Just ask China, or Russia, or Turkey, or Saudi Arabia, or our bill of rights. People outside of your bubble understand that politics is unavoidably in everything, and they understand that what you're actually saying, whether you know or not, is "my politics are the default and so you shouldn't say anything that makes me uncomfortable and we'll just call catering to me 'apolitical.'" It's just staggering self-unawareness and the egocentric demand that the world be sanitized for your consumption.

Usually people who don't want politics in their media understand that you shouldn't beat women at all, and they're not "ours" or anybody's but their own. They usually aren't regressive or anything - because actual regressives are fanatics who believe their way to be the only right way and will peddle it everywhere.

Having politics injected into everyday conversation and discussion of every medium is a sign of ideological warfare being waged or propaganda of a totalitarian sort. If there are no apolitical topics, then there is no escape from reality that the media is supposed to provide. The media should not kowtow to anybody's singular view of the world.

Yes, issues of society should be discussed, and discussed often, with multiple views on the subject present. But entertainment shouldn't turn into just another venue to express someone's political views. It's for having fun.

Count Arioch the 28th · Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:50 am

I guess for me it depends on the politics and how it's expressed. The Incredibles was libertarian propaganda (and unsubtle propaganda at that), but I still enjoyed it because it was portrayed in an entertaining way. Whereas the one line about how Democracy dies in Revenge of the Sith made me gag despite only being one throw-away line in a movie primarily about space wizards swordfighting with laser swords.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 5:53 am

Literally nothing you said rebuts, and in fact, entirely demonstrates, exactly what DSM is saying. Believing media can be non political is just evidence that you don't understand the politics of the media, because you believe those politics are not "politics" because you agree with them.

Literally any media having a single woman in it in any way is political. Not having a woman is also political. These things say something, and the fact that you can watch media that supports the status quo and declare it non political is entirely demonstrative of DSM's point.

Ignimortis · Post by **Ignimortis** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:08 am

Kaelik wrote:Literally nothing you said rebuts, and in fact, entirely demonstrates, exactly what DSM is saying. Believing media can be non political is just evidence that you don't understand the politics of the media, because you believe those politics are not "politics" because you agree with them.

Literally any media having a single woman in it in any way is political. Not having a woman is also political. These things say something, and the fact that you can watch media that supports the status quo and declare it non political is entirely demonstrative of DSM's point.

The status quo is the default, yes. The default is that way because the majority agrees with it, usually, therefore, it's not political if it does nothing to disturb the status quo - it's just what the majority expects and wants. It's not political if it's what the majority thinks. How so, you would ask?

Politicians, whoever they might be, work to change the current default. It doesn't matter if they're rightist, leftist, centrist - ask any politician if there's something wrong that needs to be fixed, and every single one will find something that needs to be changed, and it needs to be changed now.

Apolitical people usually say something like "eh, there are some things I don't like, but we'll manage". That's always the majority, because the majority is usually concerned with their own survival and prosperity, and as long as that doesn't get disturbed, change can happen well enough.

That's what keeps actual politicians in office - you find a group that doesn't think your policies will upset their livelihood and might improve it, you pander to them. That's true for every single fucking party, candidate, etc.

And don't get started on "but the conservative or whatever want to keep the status quo". They don't. They pursue mostly economical goals (making it easier for them to get rich/keep their riches, and fuck over anyone who disagrees) and use societal unease towards rapid change as their platform. I don't think they actually care, it's just what gets them elected better than "I'll rob you blind and you won't even notice". Look at US 2016 elections. All Trump had to do was to promise jobs and to improve the economy. Hillary focused on social politics. She ran against the person who could be crushed effortlessly if she appealed to the majority's needs (which are ALWAYS survival and prosperity until we're in a post-scarcity society) too.

Back on track, though - pushing for the media to become political and thus an advocate of change is a two-way street. If the mainstream media, i.e. the default, the majority-approved media ceases to exist, you would be left with rampant propaganda from all sides and nothing else.

I figure this discussion is becoming too political for a videogames thread, though.

DSMatticus · Post by **DSMatticus** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:27 am

Hey, guess what. Acknowleding the existence of homosexuals is political. Both in the sense that there are people who think homosexuals should not be allowed to exist and in the sense that if you put homosexuals in your videogame as completely ordinary characters doing completely ordinary things, a bunch of people will crawl out from the sewers to whine about how you put politics in your videogame. Because to them, homosexuals are disgusting deviants and they shouldn't be recognized as human beings and you putting homosexual characters in their face like they're ordinary people is an attack on their politics. And guess what? They're right. I mean, not about homosexuals being non-people, but about how showing homosexuals existing (instead of being shunned or stoned to death or whatever) is an attack on their politics. Their politics call for the dehumanization of homosexuals and there you are not dehumanizing homosexuals. You are disagreeing with their politics to their face! How rude of you! Except it's not fucking rude at all, because their politics are fucking awful. They are offended by the basic right to dignity of other human beings, so fuck them let them be offended.

And guess what? Explicitly refusing to put homosexuals in videogames for their sake is also fucking political. It's both political and topical, because China is notorious for censoring homosexuality, and since China has become important to American-made media as a viable secondary and sometimes even primary market, there are absolutely producers right now taking the axe to specific instances of LGBT representation or entire stories because they think it will run them afoul of Chinese censors and cost them tons of money. There is literally no solution to the dilemma of apolitical media. Literally none. If you just erase the existence of LGBT individuals because it offends people, that is a political statement about how not offending a bunch of right-wingers is more important than the humanity and dignity of LBT individuals. If you just write LGBT characters like they are normal people, that is a political statement about the humanity and dignity of LGBT individuals which will offend the shit out of a bunch of right-wingers.

The only thing "keep politics out of X" has ever meant is "don't challenge me on issues I care about, but I'll ignore the actual infinity of issues I don't care about. I'll ignore them so hard I don't even realize they're issues. The status quo and most of my own beliefs are invisible to me because I don't see them challenged enough to realize they exist!" I assume most of you aren't actually complete assholes, so seeing homosexuals existing won't ruin your day, and so won't think of it as "depressing shit in the real world" that got in the way of videogames being "for having fun." It doesn't even register as political to you because it aligns with your politics. But a bunch of other people are complete assholes, and they will get offended by the "politics" of it, and they will go on twitter and bitch about it. In fact, until this conversation, the only place I had ever seen "stop shoving your politics down my throat!" was from people bitching about gay romances in bioware games, characters like Ellie from The Last of Us turning out to be lesbian, or female protagonists like new Lara Croft not having big enough tits. They chose this particular warcry because "keep politics out of videogames" sounds way more sane than "homosexuality is a disease and you're spreading it to our children!", just like "law and order" sounds way more sane than "we're going to arrest as many blacks and hippies as we possibly can. That should put a stop to all these civil rights and anti-war protests."

But it's actually stupid. It's stupid and evil when they do it, and it's certainly at least stupid (but hopefully not evil) when you do it. Because everything is political. Everything. No matter how tame you think a statement or a concept is, someone out there disagrees with you enough to be offended.

A major supporting character in Die Hard is a cop who shot a kid. Are you offended by that because it's a commentary on police violence being shoved in your face? Oops, that character's black and he has a convincing sob story. Are you offended because that downplays the role racism and extreme police misconduct has in policing-related deaths? Or did you just not notice at all how easy it is to interpret that politically?

There's a pandemic film about the rush for a vaccine. A vaccine. Do I really to explain that one? How do you think anti-vaxxers feel about that one? You wouldn't have noticed the issue, I'm sure, because you are presumably not insane. But I bet anti-vaxxers have a very different take on that film than you do.

Actually, fuck it. D&D is political! It's a satanic conspiracy to corrupt the children! Violence in videogames is political! It's a bad influence on our youth! Your presence here as part of those hobbies is political! You are offending people, right now, with your satanism and your murder-simulator brainwashing machines. How could you support these horrible, horrible hobbies? Jack Chick and Jack Thompson are so offended right now.

Everything is political. Some of it you notice because it confronts one of your beliefs or reminds you of some issue you are aware of. Most of it you don't because you, as in you personally, are used to it. That doesn't mean it's not political. Someone else did notice it, because it confronted their beliefs or reminded them of some issue they were aware of. And that is unavoidable. I mean, I guess I'd have trouble spinning a political message out of Tetris, but I'm sure some fucking idiot somewhere thinks Tetris is political. Something something communism propaganda vis a vis collectivism represented by line-clearing as a win condition?

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 7:52 am

Ignimortis wrote:The status quo is the default, yes. The default is that way because the majority agrees with it, usually, therefore, it's not political if it does nothing to disturb the status quo - it's just what the majority expects and wants. It's not political if it's what the majority thinks. How so, you would ask?

Politicians, whoever they might be, work to change the current default. It doesn't matter if they're rightist, leftist, centrist - ask any politician if there's something wrong that needs to be fixed, and every single one will find something that needs to be changed, and it needs to be changed now.

Apolitical people usually say something like "eh, there are some things I don't like, but we'll manage". That's always the majority, because the majority is usually concerned with their own survival and prosperity, and as long as that doesn't get disturbed, change can happen well enough.

If your position on political and apolitical acts results in you arguing something which when applied, finds that slavery in the antebellum south was apolitical, your definition sucks, and you failed.

Mos of the people in the south agreed with slavery for like, literally the entire time it existed. It was what the majority wanted, and it was the status quo.

It was also intensely political and the people who did it would have told you that while writing letters about how incredibly political it was, and voting solely for political candidates who were charged with securing that status quo.

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:38 am

Most of what I saw of skyrim was tiddy mods, so they just gotta be more upfront with it to catch on

maglag wrote:
Pariah Dog wrote:The opposite in fact Maglag, I'd even go so far as to say they were overhyped. Then again my dislike of TES 3 and 4 mostly stems from the pants on head retarded leveling system.
I guess we just have different standards for popularity, because Fate Grand Motherfucking Order is stupidly popular here in China, not only getting big booths at every gaming/anime event besides assorted merchandise everywhere else, but even the fans organizing life theather plays at said events. Skyrim meanwhile gets maybe a few props on sale here and there if that, and there's about zero Oblivion/earlier stuff in view.

I'm shocked by how good the PRC tiddy games are now. There's one with girl commandos, and a battleship girls one. I think they both have Japanese voice actors too.

Think this is a fanmade MV: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUnVm971qh4

Battleship girls in qipao!

Girls Frontline: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkDJm7uQirY

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[/img]

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 8:53 am

Shrapnel wrote:Um, Transformers has had a bunch of video games, ever since the ol' Famicon days in Japan.

https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Video_games

As for the political thing, I get enough of depressing shit in the real world. I want video games to be an escape from real life, thus I don't want real world issues to rear their ugly head while I'm blasting Mavericks or such not.

"Metroplex heeds the call of the last Prime!"
Even if i hate the game system, that line got my nerdboner up and finished in the time it took for that sentence to register.

Ignimortis · Post by **Ignimortis** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 9:47 am

I guess we have a different understanding of how everything could come to be political. If anything expressing an opinion that can offend someone or cause them to disagree is political, then sure. But it's too broad of a definition. The best takeaway from Lit classes is that not everything needs to be interpreted deeper than the surface meaning, because if you really want to, you could put a thousand meanings to anything you see. Something is only political if it's outwardly intended to cause offense or send a politically-charged message, with other reasons for the action secondary at best.

For instance, this discussion started with Pariah Dog saying that the author of some article inserted his politics into a review. So I've read the article, and it's less politics, more wanking of a wannabe-artsy hipster who thinks that crying about "true art" and "respectable games" is something that improves the industry. His opinion is offensive to me, I'd say, but it's not political. He's just a dumbass. It would be political if he went and said "hurr durr gamers are racist and sexist, wipe out the industry, violent games are shit and need to be destroyed". Since he didn't, that's not politics.

Slavery, likewise, is not political in itself. People who argued in favour of slavery were interested in preserving their (real or perceived) economic superiority. They perceived slavery as the right thing to do not because it was morally right, but because it put money in their pockets. The status quo they sought to keep was related to politics through economics, not vice versa. The American Civil War wasn't about slavery at its' core. The slavery issue just a pretty wrapping, like many other conflicts are.

E.g. what Trump is doing right now to Turkey is political. USA doesn't stand to profit that much from higher tariffs on Turkey, but does it anyway, because the profit is secondary to the message it sends.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 10:47 am

Fucking what? Slavery isn't political? Like, fucking seriously? Like, study fucking any political history at all? It's the fucking defining feature of politics for the early modern world, as to if people should be slaves or not, and endless fucking political battles including real wars between politically opposed nations and factionalists were fought over it. Who got to count as human, everyone or just a few people, was (and still is) essentially all of politics.

And no, it wasn't fucking profitable at the end, when the south started the civil war in the US it was economic suicide to be a slave economy because just for a start most of the wealthy part of the fucking planet wouldn't trade with you, and they really did do it specifically for the political goal of keeping slavery around. They wanted to do that because they wanted white people to rule over black people as masters do over slaves, as the who end goal of their political existence, and all of the lynchings and Jim Crow and civil rights and all of that which is in huge resurgence right now in a lot of the western world is entirely an argument about if black people are people or not, which is, like, the political thing.

Oh, sorry, you're a Trump apologist, of course you're a racist shitbag. /ignore.

Ignimortis · Post by **Ignimortis** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:07 am

tussock wrote:Fucking what? Slavery isn't political? Like, fucking seriously? Like, study fucking any political history at all? It's the fucking defining feature of politics for the early modern world, as to if people should be slaves or not, and endless fucking political battles including real wars between politically opposed nations and factionalists were fought over it. Who got to count as human, everyone or just a few people, was (and still is) essentially all of politics.

And no, it wasn't fucking profitable at the end, when the south started the civil war in the US it was economic suicide to be a slave economy because just for a start most of the wealthy part of the fucking planet wouldn't trade with you, and they really did do it specifically for the political goal of keeping slavery around. They wanted to do that because they wanted white people to rule over black people as masters do over slaves, as the who end goal of their political existence, and all of the lynchings and Jim Crow and civil rights and all of that which is in huge resurgence right now in a lot of the western world is entirely an argument about if black people are people or not, which is, like, the political thing.

Oh, sorry, you're a Trump apologist, of course you're a racist shitbag. /ignore.

Hilarious. I'm not a Trump apologist, and I have no idea why you think that. Or should everyone who doesn't like him shout at the top of their lungs every five minutes "TRUMP IS A DOOFUS"? The best thing I can say about Trump is that he's sometimes funny. That's about it. He's a shithead, but most politicians are, so he fits right in.

The racism, slavery, discrimination against other human beings is never the end goal, unless you're a lunatic. It's irrational and unjustifiable. Therefore, there have to be other reasons which are masked by the outward notion of segregation and racialization. "Preserving our way of life" is a bullshit line thrown to the public that tries to make the common people feel threatened. It's only a way to ride to power and wealth.

Perhaps I'm underestimating how malevolent people can be, but I can't believe that someone would actually go to war not for money or influence, but solely for the privilege of keeping indentured workers oppressed. Nobody is that petty. But I can surely believe that some bastards are willing to lie to the masses to rise in society and take control of it.

Thaluikhain · Post by **Thaluikhain** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 11:28 am

Ignimortis wrote:The racism, slavery, discrimination against other human beings is never the end goal, unless you're a lunatic. It's irrational and unjustifiable. Therefore, there have to be other reasons which are masked by the outward notion of segregation and racialization. "Preserving our way of life" is a bullshit line thrown to the public that tries to make the common people feel threatened. It's only a way to ride to power and wealth.

Perhaps I'm underestimating how malevolent people can be, but I can't believe that someone would actually go to war not for money or influence, but solely for the privilege of keeping indentured workers oppressed. Nobody is that petty. But I can surely believe that some bastards are willing to lie to the masses to rise in society and take control of it.

For that lie to work, people have to believe it, it has to be a lie that appeals to them. It;s irrational, sure, but many things are.

Also, there's not reason to assume people deciding to spread the lie and people that believe the lie are totally separate.

People might not explicitly fight to keep people oppressed, but they will explicitly fight to preserve their culture and way of life, and that might have oppression of other people as a key point.

tussock · Post by **tussock** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 12:22 pm

Perhaps I'm underestimating how malevolent people can be

People are monsters. We have basically eradicated all life on the planet that does not serve us. Everything that's not a person is changed into something that serves us, or we seek to eradicate it, or continuously attack it to keep it under control.

What racism does, it gives folks the idea that some people are not a person, as such.

Once someone isn't a person, they fall into that other category, and they serve us, or we kill them. All of them. Every single last one. This has happened quite often just in the previous century in the world. People are monsters, all it takes is someone deciding you aren't one of us and you'll see that really quickly.

People might not explicitly fight to keep people oppressed

Adolf Hitler invaded Russia for the purpose of exterminating all Russians. Not just ruling over them and oppressing them, he did that to the people he saw as people. With the untermench, them he set about exterminating, including all Russians. Usually in extreme secrecy, so they wouldn't notice and fight back. He tried to secretly kill everyone in Leningrad, but the Russian army got in over the frozen lake, and news got out, and the Russian army stopped retreating from battle, they were all told what was waiting for their families if the Germans got through, and as a result the Germans lost the war. Because Hitler just hated them so much he couldn't stand to let them live as equals in the German empire.

People are monsters. They will totally just throw away everything they have for a chance to do impossibly horrible things. It just keeps happening, not even that uncommon.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:28 pm

See Gingers.

Kaelik · Post by **Kaelik** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 1:56 pm

Ignimortis wrote:Hilarious. I'm not a Trump apologist, and I have no idea why you think that. Or should everyone who doesn't like him shout at the top of their lungs every five minutes "TRUMP IS A DOOFUS"? The best thing I can say about Trump is that he's sometimes funny. That's about it. He's a shithead, but most politicians are, so he fits right in.

"All I'm saying is that Trump is a politician who is no worse than any other, is basically just the same as all democrats, all democrats are exactly as bad as Trump, and that slavery is apolitical, how could you possible think I'm a Trump apologist?"

Gee, I wonder.

tussock wrote:People are monsters. We have basically eradicated all life on the planet that does not serve us. Everything that's not a person is changed into something that serves us, or we seek to eradicate it, or continuously attack it to keep it under control.

Actually, we do that to all persons too.

Ignimortis · Post by **Ignimortis** » Thu Aug 16, 2018 3:09 pm

Kaelik wrote: "All I'm saying is that Trump is a politician who is no worse than any other, is basically just the same as all democrats, all democrats are exactly as bad as Trump, and that slavery is apolitical, how could you possible think I'm a Trump apologist?"

Gee, I wonder.

He's an incompetent buffoon, that's all. A racist and sexist buffoon, too, so there's no way I can like him as either a person or a politician.
However, I don't think most other politicians are much better in terms of competence or personal behaviour. Note that I said "most", not "all".

Besides, as far as I know, there's an up-and-coming someone on the Democrat side of the USA that literally advocates removing most of the barriers to immigration altogether, both borders and border guards. Some of their supporters say it's to make a new immigration agency, which will be more "humane", the others don't seem to have planned that far. I don't think that's satire, and I don't think that's a good position, despite the idea gaining traction.

So as an outsider, who doesn't care about one party or the other, I'm kinda baffled as to who exactly is supposed to be the good side in American politics. Reasonable figures don't seem to get as much attention these days, with both sides being equally crazy, only in different ways. Do you choose based on who's less morally bankrupt?