Finishing Moves

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Prak
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Finishing Moves

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Finishing Moves
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When D&D was first published, people flocked to it out of a desire to play out their Lord of the Rings and Princess of Mars fanfic. As time went on, movies such as the Star Wars trilogy began to drive it (ok, probably not that much time. Star Wars came out in the same decade as D&D).

But honestly? Now video games like Legend of Zelda and God of War are driving just as much interest in RPGs as anything else.

I'm aware of a handful of attempts to do finishing moves and similar shit in tabletop games, and the mook rules that are getting to be common in newer fantasy games seems to be intended to fulfill a similar role.

In D&D specifically, there's a maneuver in Book of 9 Swords that's literally called Finishing Move, which does very little unless the target is below half hp. In a third party Totally Edgy line of adventure modules (Goodman Games' Wicked Fantasy Factory), there's a tack on rule that gives all adventurers a finishing move, which requires an attack roll, and beating the target's remaining hp on a (half level)d6 roll. If you pull it off, you get some bonus XP. Coup de graces can be considered finishing moves as well, but don't quite fit the semantic.

And then there's various mook/minion rules.

Basically, every existing rule of finishing moves, that I'm aware of, is fucking shit.

Finishing moves, in their various source material, are things you use against an opponent that has been weakened to the point that the user has pretty much already won. They are fun, flashy, and, perhaps most notably for tabletop, quicker than slugging out the last bit of combat. I guess in some video games a "finisher" can actually be done at any time, but... we're going to ignore that.

When You Can Finish An Opponent
Personally, my main inspiration for this whole thing is stuff like God of War and Darksiders. Once you beat on an enemy enough, you get a little indicator above their head telling you that you can finish them off with an action command. In God of War, finishing an opponent this way gives you a little health, some mana (Rage), that sort of thing. In Darksiders, you just get mana (Wrath), because... iunno. Health is more scarce in Darksiders. Whatever.

Other sources of Finisher Moves are fighting games, like Mortal Kombat, where, again, you use a Fatality move when your opponent is already beaten.

So, a finisher move should be something you use when you've already won, and further slugging it out is basically a formality. And the more formidable you are, the more slugging you can consider a formality. So higher level characters should be able to use finishers on more powerful opponents. HP, and hp relative to another measure, is probably the best way to do this. Maybe comparing hp to a couple things, so, say, a target with equal or fewer hp than it has HD is on the ropes and can be affected by a finishing move, and a target with equal or fewer hp than you have HD is just so weak compared to you that it's nothing more than a speed bump.

What A Finisher Does
At it's most basic, a Finisher should finish an opponent. This means, at least, that we are straight discarding the Goodman Games Wicked Fantasy Factory Finishing Move rules out of hand, because "Roll to hit, then roll some d6s to see if your successful hit actually takes them out" is bullshit. Finishing Moves are supposed to be awesome, but also, they should be quicker than slugging it out.

Bare minimum, a Finishing Move should autohit and autokill. Your opponent is either so bloodied that a stiff breeze will take them out, or so weak you can kill them by spitting on them, you should be able to just straight choke slam them into the dirt. The action this should take is debatable. A lot of video games depict finishing moves on the order of full round actions. But if a finisher is a full round action, then there needs to be something to make up for the fact that you're exposing yourself to other enemies that may not be as injured, and, at higher levels, you're spending a full round to take out one enemy when you could be attacking at least two. We're going to say that a Finishing Move is a Full Round Action, but you can take a single Move Action as part of it (which means you can't perform a finisher if you're limited in your actions in any way), and when you Finish an opponent you get some hp back, and if you use spell points (or, rather, Power Points), you get some of those back. We'll also say you can recover daily uses, but only 1 daily use per encounter (so you can't refill your daily rages by picking a fight with kobolds and Finishing them one by one). We'll say you get to roll the opponent's hit die type, and regain that much hp, and if you have any kind of spell points, that many of those.

What A Finisher Is
When you use a Finishing Move, you perform some special action, that's within the plausible range of your abilities, to destroy the opponent in a particularly flashy way. You use the time that would be spent rolling and adding and comparing numbers for a trivial formality to instead feel awesome saying how you cleave the kobold in half or whatever. A Finisher can, and should, invoke your class or racial combat abilities, but does not consume uses of them, nor does it need to follow the normal rules for such. So a wizard who specializes in fire magic can say they engulf the cannibal halfling in a burst of flame from their dick, without spending a spell slot to do so, and a rogue can stab the cannibal in the dick even though they're in full view and no one's flanking the cannibal halfling.

Finish It
So lets look at this idea with some actual hypothetical numbers.

We'll say the opponent is a kobold to start with. A kobold warrior has 4hp on average, and 1 HD. Honestly, it's entirely within the realm of possibility that even a first level character can drop it in a single hit, there's no real reason to use a finisher, even when the kobold is dropped to 1 hp, except for that healing. If the kobold is left at 1 hp because your buddy rolled bad or something, you can use your finisher, saying you charge at the kobold and stomp its chest in, healing 1d8 hp and recovering 1d8 power points (or whatever). At sixth level, you're still very likely to be able to drop a kobold in one hit, and you're going to be encountering them in sufficient numbers that the full round action to finish one might actually be a deterrent when you could be attacking two regularly. But, maybe you could use that Cure Light, or that recovered Daily use, or you've just been rolling shit and would rather autokill the things than risk missing pitifully. So your sixth level character who gets ambushed by five kobolds can just straight up spend five turns stomping their heads in, or immolating them with dick fire, or whatever. And honestly, it can be glossed over with just a few rolls to see if the kobolds do enough damage to off set your healing, if anyone really cares.

Let's look at another example, a succubus. It's CR 7, so it's a reasonable challenge for a sixth level party, that should give them some trouble. A succubus has 6 HD, and, on average, 33 hp. If the succubus is dropped to 6 hp, but not taken out, you can use your finisher on her, and you'll heal a d8 of HP, and recover a d8 of spell points or a daily use. And honestly, against a succubus, the trade off between two normal attacks and an auto kill is way more reasonable.

Feats, Abilities and Finishers
In general, your capabilities just give you license to fluff your finisher, but some abilities should actually improve your finishers. Like, if you have Whirlwind Attack, there is literally no reason you shouldn't be able to incorporate that into your finisher to allow you to take out multiple viable targets at once. If you have Cleave, I'm totally ok with you Finishing two viable targets, and if you have Great Cleave, and you've got multiple Finisher targets, I see no reason you shouldn't be able to mow through them like the little pest opponents that exist to be stomped in a single Action Command in Darksiders.

This is a brainstorm, and I'm betting there are places it could be improved. The numbers are entirely arbitrary first thoughts.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Spells are already flashy finishing with disintegrations and immolation and all tha, spells are their own subsystem to track toot, so making this a thing for non-casting actions would be reasonable for me.

Mad World's got a lot of nice finishers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk8zqgj2sw0

Environmental kills too.

Intimidation to those who see your flashy kill could also be a thing.

But if you're stomping in every single kobold's head though the finisher becomes mundane, you also gotta make sure you don't just stomp chickens to recharge after every fight.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

I don't know that you're scratching the same itch.

As you say, in a video game, a finishing move is used when you've already defeated an enemy. It effectively becomes a 'narrative reward' where you get an interesting cut scene compared to a 'standard' attack. D&D allows narrative description far more than a video game even could. I don't see how tacking on a new system offers any advantages then the GM saying 'that's going to kill him - describe it'. Or the GM, if he has a flair for descriptions can narrate the effects in a suitable way.

If you allow 'actions outside of the rules' for finishing moves, you have to ask why people can't use those abilities in other situations. If you can immolate someone without using a spell slot (or whatever) when they're 'near helpless', why can't you do it in other situations? Why not against a rope bridge? Or the pile of loose straw?

You're trying to provide a mechanical solution to a narrative problem and it creates other narrative problems.

If you're trying to clear enemies off the field faster, you might want a 'bloodied' or 'wounded' condition, and key other abilities off of that. For example, a 'wounded' character might need to make a save every time they take damage or 'drop'. That wouldn't guarantee a 'finishing move', but it would make that type of thing more likely... The question then becomes how many hit points a character gets before they deal with that... The 3.x answer of 'at 1 hit point you're fine and at -10 you're dead' frequently means that high level characters go from 'fine' to 'dead' much more than low-level characters. 1d8+3 is much less likely to deal 11 points of damage than 10d6.

Such a system could also be used by team monster. If two or three of the party are 'bloodied' they might want to withdraw from the fight because a single AoE attack could knock them all out - even if they have plenty of hit points.

3.x does have a problem with everyone fighting to the death every time. So taking the idea of 'weakened characters are easier to finish' can lead to some interesting design choices, but I don't see the 'finishing move' as the best final destination.
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Post by Pariah Dog »

You mention finishers being FRAs yet in the example games you cite finishes either tell the AI for the rest of the goons to sit the fuck down while you rip this guy's arm off and beat him to death with it, or give you outright immunity during your animation.

However in DnD games this is basic a Coup de Grace with the condition of "Fuck you" instead of you're helpless which would encourage others to stab in you the back while you're beating the hapless mook to death with his own arm.

Also in most DnD like games you tend to fight things approximate to your level and when it is a large number of things below your level you have much more time and energy efficient means to wipe out the lot them (fireball the whole pack of cannibal halflings) instead of running up to each one and pressing circle and adding to your collection of burnt halfling dicks.

Ultimately while this stuff is cool in games like Darksiders or GoW, it's not really feasible in your typical DnD-esque game. Been lucky to have GMs with flair as DeadDM puts it for moments like or when you crit instakill guys and I've also had DMs just go "It dies" for the same scenario.
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Post by Prak »

DeadDM: Honestly, if someone was playing a mage with fire spells and just wanted to burn a rope bridge, or similar non-combat, small scale stuff, I'd probably let them do that without using a spell slot.

An alternative might be "it takes a spell slot, but you're free to describe it as you wish."

Pariah Dog: In Wicked Fantasy Factory (third party D&D modules), finishing moves gave extra xp (to the whole party), but they're aren't auto hit or auto kill.

The rules I wrote above don't give extra xp (though I'd consider it when I'm using encounter xp), but they do give a little hp and a daily use ability recovery, so there is a reason to whip out a finishing move when you can.

And while my finishing move rules don't give you enemy immunity for the round in exchange to the FRA (which I'm open to, come to think of it), there are other incentives, on top of the "feeling" incentive of "I get to describe how I cleave through this fucker"
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Post by GâtFromKI »

In a "Catch RPG" I played:
- finisher is available when the enemy drop to 33% hp (... more or less. It's available when his hp are "red"; there are "green" hp, "yellow" hp and "red" hp, and you decide how many of your hp are of each color. Since there are advantages and disadvantages of being in red status, a character may have only 1 red hp, while another one may have 1 green hp, 1 yellow hp, and every other hp red).
- it cost magic points (quite a lot).
- it's auto-hit, auto-kill. When it remove 33% of the hp of some big enemy, it may be worth its cost.
- There are powers preventing death. If your opponent uses one, he still have a lot of heavy penalties; you decide the effects of your finisher when you create it.
Last edited by GâtFromKI on Thu May 24, 2018 9:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Prak »

Could you go into more detail with that, Gat?
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Post by GâtFromKI »

There isn't a lot to add x) . And my skill in English language isn't high...

The game is named Luchadores; but our MC changed some of the rules, so I don't know what the actual rules are and what the modifications are. The game is about lucha libre wrestlers figthing monsters and demons, basically we play this:
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Character aren't casters, but they are "somehow magic". Their magic is activated by wrestling: by performing impressive moves or by "playing" with the public. They gain magic points depending of their degrees of success in combat actions, and they can taunt, joke, ask for applause etc to generate a few more.

As a consequence, magic points are costly: the PCs have to punch demons without magic to generate the magic they need to punch demons. Magic points are used either to succeed when a character rolls a failure, either to activate the signature or the finisher; signature and finisher are predefined sequence of wrestling move with several effects, decided during character creation.

HP have 3 colors: green, yellow, red; each character decide how many of his HP are green (at least 1), how many are yellow (at least 1) and how many are red (at least 1). The color of the remaining HPs represent the "apparent status" of the character; if you know about the manga Saint Seya, Seya is the kind the character who's always in "red status": he's always almost dead but this doesn't affect his fighting ability. The color of the HP reduce the cost of the signature move, and since magic points are costly, this may be a big deal.

When a character is in red status, he's open to a finisher. Finishers cost a lot of magic points (and the PCs have way to reduce opponents' MP), and not every demon has a finisher, hence a red status isn't always a death sentence. When a character activates his finisher, he pays X MP (depending on his status), his opponent may pay the same amount of MP not to be defeated; there's no roll involved. If the opponent doesn't pay, he's reduced to 0 HP and defeated and every effect of the finisher applies; most of the effects do nothing on a dead opponent, but a few effects works and some monsters don't die when they are defeated and at 0 HP (those with very strong regeneration/resurrection ability...). If the opponent pays the MP cost, he isn't defeated and doesn't lose any HP but he suffers every other effects.

The effect of a finisher are usually either debuffs ("every attack after this one inflict +1 damage" or "natural armor divided by two") or wrestle advantages ("your opponent is in a submission position, he can't act until he breaks the submission, and he has a penalty of X to break the submission"). There are a few buffs like a vampiric healing. The exact combination of effects is decided at character creation: each character has 4 finisher point, most effect cost 1 point and a few cost 2.


Most of those ideas are usable in any game; I guess the number of red hp should be fixed instead of the choice of the player - or the advatages of being in red status should be large (larger than the cost reduction of the signature).
Last edited by GâtFromKI on Wed Jun 27, 2018 12:56 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by Surgo »

GâtFromKI wrote:Character aren't casters, but they are "somehow magic". Their magic is activated by wrestling: by performing impressive moves or by "playing" with the public. They gain magic points depending of their degrees of success in combat actions, and they can taunt, joke, ask for applause etc to generate a few more.

As a consequence, magic points are costly: the PCs have to punch demons without magic to generate the magic they need to punch demons
I've been thinking about this a little lately in regards to other source material. In a lot of fighting animes for example, the characters don't just blaze away with their strongest power from the get go, they tend to use exactly the amount of force necessary to win. There's no real incentive to doing that in any kind of gaming context, which makes "you need to get your bar this high to start using moves like this" into some sort of mechanic.

Not sure where I'm going with this, just thinking about how rampant this is in most source material but you don't really see games enforcing it.
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Post by Ignimortis »

There was a Strike in the Path of War subsystem for Pathfinder, which dealt additional damage depending on the target's HP percentage.
The disciple makes an attack against a foe which if successful deals additional damage determined by the state of the enemy’s hit points. If the enemy has more than 75% of his total hit points, this strike does no additional damage. If the foe has less than 75% hit points, this strike inflicts an additional 4d6 points of damage. If the foe has less than 25% of his total hit points, this strike inflicts an additional 8d6 points of damage.
As this is a 3rd level Strike, and on some characters it's pretty much spammable every second round (or every single round if you're a Harbinger), you can do pretty well at lower levels if you want to execute someone.

There's a higher-level version of it which straight-up coup-de-graces an opponent with 25% HP or less as a standard action.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Been playing Dragon Ball FighterZ, a simple combo mechanic they have is "Tag Supers" where when your active character is doing a super move and you have meter you can switch in another character as they do their super.

Mayhaps these finishers could be expanded for team attacks.
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Post by Pseudo Stupidity »

Another good way to implement finishers, and another one that comes from Dragon Ball FighterZ, is having finishers deal a lot of damage but be easy to recover from if your opponent isn't killed by it. In the game a super move deals a lot of damage, especially if you do it without a combo, but all that damage becomes blue health and can be healed. If you throw out a final flash, SS3 Kamehameha, or some other giant finishing move your opponent can easily call in another fighter and heal the person who got blasted as long as they're still standing.

In an RPG a huge attack that can annihilate wounded or weak enemies but be shrugged off if you use it on somebody too strong or not yet wounded enough would be an interesting attack and a good way to have mooks without doing 4e minions. It's also genre appropriate for supers and high fantasy, where a fresh and powerful opponent can defend themselves against your strongest attacks but strong people should absolutely be able to wipe out huge mobs of people sufficiently weaker than them. You throw out a big finishing move after beating on the other person to kill them, or you blow away lesser fighters with an overwhelming display of power. If you use it on somebody who's tough and not yet hurt enough the smoke clears, the target is still standing, you yell "IMPOSSIBLE!" and the fight begins again with your opponent getting the first move.

Mechanically make it an attack that does a lot of damage but then restores almost all the health lost if the target(s) aren't dead.
Last edited by Pseudo Stupidity on Fri Jun 29, 2018 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by virgil »

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:Mechanically make it an attack that does a lot of damage but then restores almost all the health lost if the target(s) aren't dead.
Alternatively, you could have it do X damage, and if the target's at Y health or less, then the attack does +Y damage. Frankly, this sounds like for D&D, you could start having Power Word riders on your attacks.
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Post by RobbyPants »

virgil wrote:Alternatively, you could have it do X damage, and if the target's at Y health or less, then the attack does +Y damage. Frankly, this sounds like for D&D, you could start having Power Word riders on your attacks.
Hell, that's how ToB's maneuver of the same name works. Other than the rider effect being "more damage".
Last edited by RobbyPants on Fri Jun 29, 2018 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Pariah Dog »

Which is part of what 4E attempted to do.
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Post by Nebuchadnezzar »

In M&M I like sometimes using a Quirk on attack effects such that the last two ranks or an Affliction's 3rd degree result can only take effect when the target has a thematically related Condition. One can tie it to a Complication to compensate via increased Hero Point generation, but I think encouraging Circumstance modifiers can more than offset frequently operating below PL.
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Post by tussock »

Best finishing mechanic I saw was that open-4e thing, uh, 13th Age.

Basically, when the fight gets old, you're allowed to hit more often and do more damage to make it finish now. Interesting dynamic in turtling and getting by on free powers for a few rounds before opening up with the big stuff once the bonuses to let it work reliably come online.

Not that 13th Age really took it anywhere or did anything with it, but I think that's how finishing moves work in stuff like Samurai Pizza Cats or whatever else, the early bits of the fight are just killing time until the bonuses allow your finishing move to work, and it either auto-succeeds or you just do it more bigger next round.
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