On the Mary Sue-ism of Rey (Split off by (several) requests)

[Chamomile]

Right but that's still not because Rey, in her own universe, is the best pilot. That's because of the watsonian reason that now that we have the budgets and the CGI for it, there's no reason not to animate cool intricate space flights as being cool and intricate.

Doylist, not Watsonian. Watsonian is in-universe reasons. Not really important to the overall point being made, I just don't want people to get confused about the meaning of semi-obscure but helpful jargon.

[shinimasu]

Ugh I always get them mixed up. Edited to the correct version.

[Thaluikhain]

Rey's Millenium Falcon chase scene is the best piloting ever seen in the series before or since.

Ever "seen", as in shown, perhaps. But Solo's sneaking up on the Star Destroyer, or suddenly jumping Vader at the end of the first movie presumably require great piloting, we just don't actually see it.

In any case, wasn't at least some of Rey's pursuers in that scene flying about as good as she was, until Finn shoots them? With the gun that he can't aim, she just has to angle her ship so that the stuck turret is facing exactly at the following ships, which is ridiculous as she doesn't even know what angle it's stuck at?

Though, been a while since I've seen that.

[Chamomile]

Rey's opposition in the scene where she flies through the star destroyer is a pair of TIE fighters. I haven't seen that scene since its theatrical release, but didn't both of those TIEs get shot by Finn? Meaning neither of them crashed, meaning that Rey's piloting is very definitely not as good as Han's, since he successfully navigated an asteroid field that killed multiple TIE pilots trying to follow him. Alternatively, the First Order's TIE pilots are a massive upgrade from the Empire's, but I don't see any reason to believe that's the case.

I still object to the speed with which Rey picked up Force tricks and was able to turn a Sith apprentice's mind tricks back on him despite no formal training. Previously, the only people seen mind tricking anyone were fully trained Jedi Knights.

[Chamomile]

Saying "this problem has been getting worse for a while now" is the opposite of saying "this isn't a problem." Claiming that Rey's ability to use what was otherwise a knight-level trick as her very first conscious use of the Force is okay because the Force is already "more offensive" than when we started is implicitly claiming that you're okay with being offended, or more likely that you're contradicting yourself. And even then it's not a fair comparison, because the prequels saw power creep due to an abundance of powerful Jedi and the same improving budget and movie tech that saw Rey's piloting skills look so much more spectacular than the asteroid chase when a purely in-universe comparison suggests she is worse at piloting than Han. You still never saw padawans using knight-level tricks, because we barely even see any padawans. The only firmly padawan-level characters I can remember is Anakin in episode I demonstrating standard unconscious reflex enhancement that's been a thing since ANH and also being able to bust out some minor telepathy after brief training, a weaker version of the telepathy Luke is able to use in ESB (Anakin is able to read Mace Windu's mind, presumably without any opposition since Mace is testing him, but has to speak his answers aloud rather than sending his thoughts telepathically). And also George Lucas' one kid in a cameo demonstrating the padawan-level ability to kill like two out of five clone troopers before getting gunned down.

Both Obi-Wan and Anakin are on the verge of graduating to knighthood in episodes I and II, respectively, so mostly what the prequels are establishing is what veteran knights can do when they apply themselves, and while the power creep there does obviate regularly badass people in a way that is bad for the setting, it's not the same as granting previously knight-level powers to people who are just now becoming padawans.

Plus, none of those three examples are things I'd accept literally anything from in the way you're implying would be reasonable, and indeed every single one of them is something I've called bullshit on in the past. Avatar busting energy-bending out of nowhere was bullshit, Harry Potter adding time turners to the setting and using them exclusively for solving scheduling issues was bullshit, and tons of crazy Force powers from the EU were bullshit, like when entire fleets get wrecked by Force storms or whatever. Just because something is magic and hypothetically could've established different rules for itself doesn't mean it doesn't have to follow the rules it actually does establish for itself, including the implicit rules formed by what the characters don't do, even when it would be helpful.

And while Star Wars is the only one (that I can think of off the top of my head) to drastically alter the implicit order in which abilities are learned and level of dedication required to learn them, I wouldn't accept that from either of the other two. If someone learned how to shoot or redirect lightning while still struggling with basic firebending flamethrower/fire bolt tricks, that's bullshit. If someone learned how to cast high-end magic like legilimens or the three big curses while still struggling to cast basic magic like expelliarmus or locomotor mortis, that's bullshit (particularly in this case, because Harry Potter has structured its spells into an actual curriculum, presumably at least loosely in a manner that corresponds to difficulty).

Your examples aren't actually supporting any point at all except that you personally don't care if the implicitly established hierarchy of powers is preserved or not. Good for you, but "I don't care about worldbuilding" is not actually a counterargument to the assertion of "this contradicts the previously established worldbuilding."

[deaddmwalking]

I said Rey being the most amazingly talented pilot we've seen is inarguable and, of course, it is.

It's not. Right here on this forum people are saying she's not depicted as a better pilot than Han. Your counterargument is that the impressive things we know Han did weren't shown on screen... I haven't seen the new Han Solo movie where we actually see the Kessel Run, but that's pretty clearly supposed to be impressive from the standards set in Episode 4.

Rey doesn't appear to be impressed or surprised by her abilities. Nobody else seems to be impressed or surprised by her abilities. Like, Luke doesn't bust out a Willow and say 'YOU ARE GREAT' to Harrison Ford (he's a pretty good pilot himself), but C3PO clearly thinks Han is doing some borderline impossible things.

So there are a few threads to this argument. One side is saying that Rey is a Mary Sue because she's the best at EVERYTHING. The other is saying that she is depicted as similarly good to other characters in things that the use of the Force or what we know about her past seem pretty reasonable.

Even if her piloting is 'the best' (which I don't think it is), that doesn't even then necessarily follow that it isn't justified or consistent with what we know about the universe. Anakin, as a snot-nosed brat, flies a fighter and takes out the main ship of the Trade Armada. Anakin as a snot-nosed brat who is supposed to be a 'young adult Anakin' and/or Obiwan fly through a 3D city avoiding traffic and performing stunts. Being 'strong with the force' makes people good pilots, like, in every single movie.

[Username17]

Your examples aren't actually supporting any point at all except that you personally don't care if the implicitly established hierarchy of powers is preserved or not.

Canonically there is no order that Force abilities have to be learned in. Some Force users are really good at telekinesis, some are really good at prognostication, some are really good at mind control or shooting lightning bolts. Very specifically there are some Force users who are stronger than others, and the first manifested powers are different one user to another.

This plays out in games with various Force power trees or alternate character classes or separate power cards or a bunch of other setups. The top end of telekinesis and battle magic is pretty fucking epic, especially if we consider The Cartoons as being remotely canon. Force blasting whole regiments at a time, flying around, smashing giant siege ships with your damn mind, and so on. The upper end of prognostication involves people doing Xanatos gambits that are a thousand years long and shit.

But one absolute constant is that when Force sensitive people manifest, they manifest different powers like they were fucking X-Men. Really. That's how it works. There is no strict ordering of power acquisition. The actual canon is that different people start with different powers.

If you were going to do a Jedi Academy thing where it's a bunch of teenagers who are starting on the path to learning how to use The Force, each character would have a different Force power that was their calling card. Because that would obviously better than having all members of the group have the ability to block blaster bolts and have limited telekinesis, but also because that is how it actually works.

Fucking hell guys, I actually swore off being a Star Wars fan, and I still remember all this shit. Having you assholes make pronouncements about the way The Force is supposed to work and have it be fucking wrong is just stupid. Stop being stupid.

-Username17

[shinimasu]

Saying "this problem has been getting worse for a while now" is the opposite of saying "this isn't a problem." Claiming that Rey's ability to use what was otherwise a knight-level trick as her very first conscious use of the Force is okay because the Force is already "more offensive" than when we started is implicitly claiming that you're okay with being offended, or more likely that you're contradicting yourself.

I think we have had a miscommunication here friend. I meant offensive as in "more directly geared towards offense" like, football offense or "going on the offensive." Not as in "this thing offends me.

Vanilla force users used the force like a buff spell if they were light side. Actually whacking other people with force powers was largely only a thing Vader did. Then the prequels happen and they were like "Well we don't want this order of mystic monk knights to look less cool than vader, force shoving for everyone!"

I think my point probably also wasn't clearly elaborated on. My point is that "the force is kind of bullshit" is a problem, but it's not a problem with Rey specifically, it is a flaw with the writing of the entire series as a whole. Rey didn't create bullshit force powers, she probably won't be the last jedi who inexplicably gains bullshit force powers, and as far as "people who get inexplicable bullshit powers go" she's not particularly unique across genres (hence the comparisons to other works with soft magic systems).

So acting as if Rey being good at the force is somehow a failing of Rey as a character, and not a failing of how the force itself has been written in the series, baffles me.

[Chamomile]

I do not now nor will I ever care about your obscure EU bullshit, because no one else does and it explicitly gives way to movies as canon anyway. Starkiller wrecks entire star destroyers with his Force powers, but if that were an actual thing Force users could do, the movies would look very different from what we actually see, so into the trash it goes. In the movies, telekinesis is ubiquitous amongst Force sensitives with even minimal training, but mind tricks are used exclusively by people knight-level and above.

EDIT:

I think we have had a miscommunication here friend. I meant offensive as in "more directly geared towards offense" like, football offense or "going on the offensive." Not as in "this thing offends me.

Okay, neat, then the problem here is just that you're completely wrong. Luke uses a Force choke in RotJ. It's part of the same sequence when Luke starts busting out higher-tier Force powers left and right to establish that he's now a fully trained Jedi.

My point is that "the force is kind of bullshit" is a problem, but it's not a problem with Rey specifically, it is a flaw with the writing of the entire series as a whole.

Rey is the character who turned the problem from "it turns out the Force is capable of far more powerful feats than was ever implied in the OT in the hands of a master" to "it turns out the Force is capable of far more powerful feats than was ever implied in the OT in the hands of someone who is just now making conscious use of it for the first time ever." That someone else might one day hypothetically also be a vehicle for this problem doesn't change the fact that the problem is strongly associated with Rey because she is the one who actually introduced this new level of "Force powers as plot demands" to the series. It also doesn't matter that you can probably find precedent in EU material that no one cares about, because no one cares about it. What matters is why people dislike Rey as a character, and it's because she's the vehicle for this problem passing a threshold of egregiousness past which the entire setting begins to break down. If Rey can bust out these kinds of tricks as her first conscious use of the Force, why did it take Luke so much effort just to grab his lightsaber from the snow in ESB? Even if you accept Frank's assertion that bullshit from the 90s is something we should at all care about, what is Luke's equivalent power that he figures out immediately after being told that the Force even exists? The only thing you can argue for as Luke's special power is the ability to sense his environment (he can deflect the shots from the training probe while blinded), but he never goes on to use those powers ever again, and it's also very similar to the trick that Anakin is able to use as his first conscious use of the Force. Maybe even the exact same trick, if Anakin is using ESP to see over Mace Windu's shoulder despite being in front of him or if Luke is reading Obi-Wan's mind to keep track of the probe's position. Neither of these two characters go on to have "sensory perception" or "telepathy" as their defining powers, and indeed, Anakin's powers both in the PT and as Vader in the OT are very much about telekinetically chucking people around (although in the PT this is an extension of the fact that all Jedi use people chucking as their bread and butter).

Rey didn't create bullshit force powers, she probably won't be the last jedi who inexplicably gains bullshit force powers, and as far as "people who get inexplicable bullshit powers go" she's not particularly unique across genres (hence the comparisons to other works with soft magic systems).

None of the powers Rey uses are bullshit or unprecedented. Just the opposite, Rey and Luke both have relatively very restrained abilities compared to the PT. What's unprecedented bullshit is the speed with which she pulls out tricks previously the exclusive domain of trained, experienced characters with what is very definitely her first ever conscious use of Force powers. While you can argue that she's just the latest manifestation of the Force going ever more off the rails, you can't argue that she isn't a uniquely bad example of the Force going off the rails, so it's hardly surprising that people associate the problem with her. As of right now, being able to use whatever Force powers the plot requires of her regardless of what's been previously established as a particularly high or low level power is a trait held exclusively by Rey, so it is hardly surprising that people consider it a flaw of her character.

[shinimasu]

I'm.. not sure where I referenced the EU? Ignore me, missed Frank's post somehow

My point is that mind tricks becoming more accessible is just part of a pattern in the series of escalation

First Trilogy: Neither Luke or Obi-Wan force shoves anyone, they use light sabers and Obi-Wan mind tricks some guys. Vader uses force shoves, chokes, etc. Palpatine shoots lightning. The implication is that only darkside force users can wield the force to hurt someone directly.

Second Trilogy: Jedi knights use force shoves during battle scenes. This dismisses the old canon that implied light side Jedi just didn't do that sort of thing. Since Anakin is picked up when he's like, nine, we never really see what teen untrained Anakin may or may not have been able to do with his force powers.

Third Trilogy: Late Teens (I think?) Rey uses a Jedi mind trick without training. This dismisses the old canon that implied mind tricks were something you needed training to do effectively. Just like force shoving is light side, now mind tricks are just an innate thing.

I'm sure if we ever got a fourth trilogy the Jedi in that would make some cool new addition to the film canon force too and people would complain about it just as endlessly.

[Kaelik]

If you were going to do a Jedi Academy thing where it's a bunch of teenagers who are starting on the path to learning how to use The Force, each character would have a different Force power that was their calling card. Because that would obviously better than having all members of the group have the ability to block blaster bolts and have limited telekinesis, but also because that is how it actually works.

In point of fact, there was a Jedi Academy, and in the books where it was founded by Luke, and he brought in a bunch of force sensitives and started teaching all of them as new apprentices each one literally had different powers they were the best at, and most of them also had things they were very bad at.

I do not now nor will I ever care about your obscure EU bullshit, because no one else does and it explicitly gives way to movies as canon anyway. Starkiller wrecks entire star destroyers with his Force powers, but if that were an actual thing Force users could do, the movies would look very different from what we actually see, so into the trash it goes. In the movies, telekinesis is ubiquitous amongst Force sensitives with even minimal training, but mind tricks are used exclusively by people knight-level and above.

I mean, when your sample size of "not knight trained force sensitives" is "literally two also they are biologically father and son" I question the validity of this sample size in effecting an opinion on the greater scheme of forcyness.

[Chamomile]

I'm.. not sure where I referenced the EU?

You ninja'd my response to Frank. My response to you was edited in later.

[shinimasu]

Right right

I forgot about luke force choking, but then I guess that goes to show how long it's been since I watched the originals.

[Username17]

I do not now nor will I ever care about your obscure EU bullshit, because no one else does and it explicitly gives way to movies as canon anyway. Starkiller wrecks entire star destroyers with his Force powers, but if that were an actual thing Force users could do, the movies would look very different from what we actually see, so into the trash it goes. In the movies, telekinesis is ubiquitous amongst Force sensitives with even minimal training, but mind tricks are used exclusively by people knight-level and above.

Obi-Wan is promoted to the rank of knight at the end of Phantom Menace and Luke is promoted to Knight at the end of Empire Strikes Back, and Anakin Skywalker becomes a Sith in Revenge of the Sith. Every single other character with Force powers is a Sith or a Knight when first seen. Nonetheless, you're still wrong, because even with that small of a sample set, we still have Anakin using Mind control in Attack of the Clones, and he is a Paduan at that time.

Ghost I hate that your incredibly moving goalposts require me to actually remember details from the fucking prequel movies.

-Username17

[Chamomile]

I do not now nor will I ever care about your obscure EU bullshit, because no one else does and it explicitly gives way to movies as canon anyway. Starkiller wrecks entire star destroyers with his Force powers, but if that were an actual thing Force users could do, the movies would look very different from what we actually see, so into the trash it goes. In the movies, telekinesis is ubiquitous amongst Force sensitives with even minimal training, but mind tricks are used exclusively by people knight-level and above.

Obi-Wan is promoted to the rank of knight at the end of Phantom Menace and Luke is promoted to Knight at the end of Empire Strikes Back, and Anakin Skywalker becomes a Sith in Revenge of the Sith. Every single other character with Force powers is a Sith or a Knight when first seen.

I don't know what you think this is a counterargument to. Obi-Wan is ready for a knight promotion at the time of Phantom Menace. He doesn't experience a significant upgrade in power between the beginning of the movie and the end, and at the end he is promoted to a knight, so it is necessarily true that he has knight-level capabilities and just hasn't yet gone through the formality of becoming a knight. Anakin is depicted at being roughly the same level of competence in Attack of the Clones, and is already a knight when Revenge of the Sith begins, so it's on you to demonstrate that Anakin has in some way or another significantly sub-knight capabilities in AotC. It's not really clear when Luke upgrades from padawan to knight except that it happens sometime between arriving on Dagobah and the opening of RotJ. The end of ESB is as good a place to mark it as any.

This isn't a moving goalpost, this is something I brought up the very first time I elaborated upon my position at all:

Both Obi-Wan and Anakin are on the verge of graduating to knighthood in episodes I and II,

The only thing I'd posted on the subject before then was a one line reference to my basic thesis, which no shit didn't include my fully described position, because obviously it didn't.

[deaddmwalking]

Your argument is 'padawans had knight-level powers which is why they were promoted to knights' which can also be stated as 'padawans with minimal training can exhibit powers at knight level'. Because the point of a padawan is that they haven't been trained/indoctrinated yet. Force Power doesn't even require a teacher. The force chooses you.

[Chamomile]

Your argument is 'padawans had knight-level powers which is why they were promoted to knights' which can also be stated as 'padawans with minimal training can exhibit powers at knight level'.

No it isn't. As you have a habit of being utterly impenetrable no matter how many times I try to explain my position to you, I'm not going to bother doing so unless someone else expresses confusion.

[Dean]

Ghost I hate that your incredibly moving goalposts require me to actually remember details from the fucking prequel movies

Motherfucker I had to rewatch that fucking podrace for the first time in 20 years just to make sure I wasn't misremembering or leaving anything out when responding so you can deal. I fucking bled for this thread

[MGuy]

Really can't highlight enough that no one thus far has called Rey the best anything in the universe.

None of that's hyperbole. It is inarguable that she's the most incredible pilot we've ever seen.

MGuy, could you kindly shut up forever? Seriously, you add nothing to the conversation and everything you say is bullshit. Literally everything. And also the bullshit that comes out of your mouth is extremely easy to disprove.

I guess I was wrong but damn this is the first time in this thread anyone has actually proven anything I said wrong. So I'll take it since that's the only thing you can quote me as being wrong on (as it's the first and only time this has happened all thread) that this is just you needing to prove that Rey isn't the absolute best just really mysteriously fucking good at it (as if that will change the overall thrust of the conversation). I'm just going to wonder why only someone saying in-world that something is impossible or really good counts when no one in-world seemed particularly surprised at the Holdo Maneuver outside of the "Oh Shit" face the First Order put on.

[hyzmarca]

Luke is promoted to Knight at the end of Empire Strikes Back,

Luke isn't promoted to anything at the end of ESB, because the Jedi Order doesn't exist anymore and there is no formal rank structure to be promoted in.

Indeed, Yoda never says a single thing about Jedi ranks in the OT.

The Jedi rank structure is a measure of seniority and accomplishment, not of power level or skill. There is no such thing as "knight level." Being a knight just means you've completed your apprenticeship and completed a test or informal trial.

It's also worth noting that Luke's big test from Yoda had nothing to do with power and everything to do with resisting the temptations of fear and anger, and Luke failed it miserably. Luke at the end of ESB wasn't even a Jedi. He was just a dumb kid with a couple weeks of training facing the most harrowing experience of his life. He did some stuff on his own between ESB and RTJ and started calling himself a Jedi, but Yoda never taught him the secret handshake or anything and only gave Luke the nod because he was literally dying and there was no other choice.

It's not really clear when Luke upgrades from padawan to knight except that it happens sometime between arriving on Dagobah and the opening of RotJ. The end of ESB is as good a place to mark it as any.

Luke is never a padawan. Because the Jed Order's formal apprenticeship system doesn't exist.

Furthermore, it's pretty clear that the Jedi Order doesn't actually care about how powerful you are or what tricks you can do. Obi-Wan was promoted because he killed Darth Maul, an impressive feat, but not one that requires knowing the mind trick.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Uh, I think the moment of Luke's becoming full Jedi is signposted pretty hard.

Luke: But I need your help. I've come back to complete the training.
Yoda: No more training, do you require. Already know you that which you need.
Luke: Then I am a Jedi.
Yoda: [coughs trying to speak] Not yet. One thing remains: Vader. You must...confront...Vader. Then, only then, a Jedi, will you be.

***

Palpatine: [laughing] Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side.
Luke: [looks at Vader's severed hand, then turns to face the Emperor, throwing away his lightsaber] Never. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You have failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me.
Palpatine: [angrily] So be it... Jedi.

[Chamomile]

Quit being thick. There is an obvious connection between the amount of skill a Jedi has and their rank, and responding a discussion using the ranks to refer to the levels of skill typically associated with them with some "well, technically" bullshit about how it is theoretically possible for there to be exceptions to this correlation is not contributing. Not even in a "you're wrong" way, but in a way where you aren't interacting with the subject of discussion at all.

[MGuy]

Quit being thick. There is an obvious connection between the amount of skill a Jedi has and their rank, and responding a discussion using the ranks to refer to the levels of skill typically associated with them with some "well, technically" bullshit about how it is theoretically possible for there to be exceptions to this correlation is not contributing. Not even in a "you're wrong" way, but in a way where you aren't interacting with the subject of discussion at all.

Half of this damn discussion has been people saying that 'technically' Rey doesn't meet the some single portion of the Mary Sue trope or another. Clearly every technicality counts an engaging with the core arguments being pushed don't matter. I 'started' talking about this to explain why people call Rey a Mary Sue and its been half technicalities and half strange arguments like Frank's latest that suggests that because no one onscreen acknowledged that Rey was a fucking amazing pilot that she clearly doesn't fit the bill because another confirmed amazing pilot did other amazing things.

[Username17]

Quit being thick. There is an obvious connection between the amount of skill a Jedi has and their rank, and responding a discussion using the ranks to refer to the levels of skill typically associated with them with some "well, technically" bullshit about how it is theoretically possible for there to be exceptions to this correlation is not contributing. Not even in a "you're wrong" way, but in a way where you aren't interacting with the subject of discussion at all.

There are a grand total of 3 people who are ever less than Knight or Sith rank in the main movies, and two of them are father and son. Nonetheless, Anakin still uses mind control in Attack of the Clones before anyone deems him ready for knighthood. You made an incredibly restrictive claim, discounting all forms of EU and all the TV shows and cartoons and books and games. And even in that context you were still wrong. Of the three characters in four movies you said you would accept for demonstrations of one specific power before an arbitrary promotion point, there actually is still a counterexample.

Just, eat your fucking crow. You made an incredibly specific and tiny claim on what kind of evidence was allowed, and the counterexample still exists. You genuinely don't have to be a specific level of training to use the mind control power even if we discount all the games and EU stories where it explicitly states that and even gives hard numbers that explicitly say that. Just accept that bitching about Rey using the Mind Trick untrained is extremely stupid. You can bitch about that scene's cinematography or whatever, but the fact that it happened is simply well within the normal expected progress cone of a Force sensitive badass. It just is. You don't have an argument on this point. Attack of the Clones is a bad movie, but the thing you said didn't happen actually did, and now we can fucking settle that and talk about anything else.

-Username17

[Occluded Sun]

I think a lot of the problems people have with the mind control scene arise from how it was presented. If she had freaked out and started screaming "Let me go, let me go!" and the stormtrooper had somehow responded, that seems more like someone accidentally learning about a power they didn't know they had. But the impression I got (and I think many other people did too) was that Rey somehow knew what she was doing and it was intentional.

Which is... pretty dumb, actually. It's implied that Luke was using the Force long before he'd ever heard of Jedi, but unconsciously and intuitively, to do things like pilot extremely well. The original movies make it pretty clear (given how hard Luke finds it to do things like TK) that most Force skills require intensive training and practice to bring off, even if the potential is there.

Oh, and citing the prequels as evidence of anything is at best a poor tactical choice, if not completely invalid. Those films are just garbage, fictionally and philosophically. (Just look at how Yoda was treated, and treated things, for examples.) In most cases you'd be better off finding well-crafted fan fiction and letting that influence your understanding of the setting than paying attention to the official content.