Le OSSR : In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas, deuxième édition

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Nath
Master
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:30 pm

Le OSSR : In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas, deuxième édition

Post by Nath »

Le OSSR : In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas, deuxième édition

Image

In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas (INS/MV) is a French roleplaying game who went through four editions between 1989 and 2006, and crowd-funded fifth one released in 2015.

Obviously, there are not going to be a lot of deners that ever heard about it, let alone played it. So I'm not expecting a lot of comments. I'd just wanted to make an OSSR and that one seemed like a funny one to do.

Image
This is French, so here it is the totally unnecessary yet mandatory picture of the Eiffel Tower that go with it

If the name happens to be familiar to some in the international audience, it is likely because Steve Jackson Games released In Nomine in 1997, which was based on INS/MV system and setting. More accurately, a sanitized, dead-serious version of the setting.

Much like they did music or movies, France got a large local production of role-playing games, nearly none of which would ever be sold in other countries. You could mention INS/MV, Nephilim, Rêve de dragon or C.O.P.S. to any French person who played through the nineties and early century and at least get an opinion, if not fond memories of entire campaigns.

Image
This is Croc, the French expy of Mark RheinDotHagen and the main author of INS/MV, along with Bloodlust, Nightprowler, C.O.P.S. and other games you never heard about

Some times ago the publisher thought it was perfectly ok to allow a fan website to give away PDF scan of every previous edition sourcebooks. At first, they just required the rulebook to be left out so as not to hurt fourth edition corebook sales. And once the game tanked for good, that limitation was lifted. So yes, if you can read French, the entire line is up to grab on http://www.xxiemeciel.com/

( and here's the link to the book I'm ossring here https://www.xxiemeciel.com/download/Liv ... omplet.zip )

INS/MV was supposed to be two different games sharing the same system: in In Nomine Satanis you play demons and in Magna Veritas you play angels. The first edition was a box with one book titled INS, one book titled MV and one book with adventures. The two book described the exact same rules (except for chargen, more on that later), with examples of different characters doing about the same thing (and rolling slightly different results).

The second edition, released in 1993 dropped this non-sense for a single book (boxed games had fallen out of fashion anyway). Since that is the edition I got at home, that's the one I picked for le OSSR.

French roleplaying can be just as snooty as you ought to expect from French people. Everyone here has been playing D&D, yet "PMT" (Porte-Monstre-Trésor, "Door-Monster-Treasure") was a widespread derogatory term for games focusing on maps and combat. If you listen to them, French players are here for drama, style and fun. White Wolf Storytelling games were at the time highly praised, all the while mocking how munchkinely US players were alledgedly playing it (and often nonetheless playing a katana-wielding Toreador).

Image
Unnecessary yet mandatory picture of Paris

So is INS/MV about playing in a Jean-Luc Godard movie with angels and demons in hour-long discussions that never address the lingering issue of true nature of Beauty? Hardly. If you have to pick a movie, Kevin Smith's Dogma would be right on spot. And the book would be Pratchett & Gaiman's Good Omens. While I think the latter certainly has an influence over the line, it is not the original inspiration, as INS/MV first edition was released in 1989.
Image
The only thing that would prevent Dogma plot to be directly used as an INS/MV adventure is that the INS/MV canon establishes God is never leaving his mobil home in La Bourboule in central France.
But let's open the book. And flip through the pages.

Image

Yes. Each and every of its 190 pages have the same horrible, ugly layout, that also eats up space.

La suite : Background
Last edited by Nath on Sat May 19, 2018 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trill
Knight
Posts: 398
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 11:47 am

Post by Trill »

Vikings
Image
User avatar
erik
King
Posts: 5866
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Re: Le OSSR : In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas, deuxième édition

Post by erik »

Nath wrote:So yes, if you can read French, the entire line is up to grab on http://www.xxiemeciel.com/
Mille mercis.

Trickery! I tried to find other products, and the site redirects to https://www.ins-mv.net/ which is more like a fan site. I even tried https://www.xxiemeciel.com/download/ but it wouldn't let me sniff the directory.
Last edited by erik on Sun May 20, 2018 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ancient History
Serious Badass
Posts: 12708
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:57 pm

Re: Le OSSR : In Nomine Satanis/Magna Veritas, deuxième édition

Post by Ancient History »

Nath wrote: If the name happens to be familiar to some in the international audience, it is likely because Steve Jackson Games released In Nomine in 1997, which was based on INS/MV system and setting. More accurately, a sanitized, dead-serious version of the setting.
I knew this sounded familiar! Looking forward to it.
User avatar
DrPraetor
Duke
Posts: 1289
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:17 pm

Post by DrPraetor »

Porte-Monstre-Trésor should be the name of Frank's monster-manual-first heart breaker.

Wasn't there a CCG of Nomine as well, with... much larger cards, and lavish (if not, in fact, especially good) artwork? Or was that some other similar setting?
Chaosium rules are made of unicorn pubic hair and cancer. --AncientH
When you talk, all I can hear is "DunningKruger" over and over again like you were a god damn Pokemon. --Username17
Fuck off with the pony murder shit. --Grek
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

As far as I know, Heresy: Kingdome Come the card game was not specifically in the same world as In Nomine Satanis. There was a lot of confusion on that point, as there is a similar art style on the books from the 90s and the card game. Also, both use gritty 90s-era ham handed subversions of public domain Christian characters.

The player base for the two games overlapped nearly 100% in English speaking land, which is probably why Heresy: Kingdom Come went out of print.

-Username17
User avatar
Ancient History
Serious Badass
Posts: 12708
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:57 pm

Post by Ancient History »

That was one of the reasons. I still have my Heresy card collection around here somewhere. The card game had more cyberpunk elements than the RPG, but they were in a weird (tarot card length) format and came out when the market was absolutely saturated, so like the Highlander CCG and Hyborian Gates, they just couldn't compete.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

The art in Heresy: Kingdom Come was totally all over the place. Some of it was really good paintings or high quality Bradstreet penwork, and some of it was like scribblings by highschool metalheads. This was the 90s, and game art was just like that - no art directors, no house style. Just rando freelance artists of varying quality who happened to run into the game designers at conventions or get met by friends of friends. This was back in the days when Magic had awesome artists like Mark Tedin and Anson Maddocks, really distinct and controversial artists like Drew Tucker, and just plain terrible artists like Justin Hampton.
ImageImage

If these two cards don't look like they are aesthetically from the same game, all I can say is "No. No they do not." Anyway, most of the cards looked like edgelord comic book art from circa 1993, which wasn't great at the time and hasn't aged well.
The people I knew who were into In Nomine were the college wiccan types. People who hated on Christianity and thought weird ass deconstructionism was super deep. Basically they were exactly the group that tried to make Exalted campaigns four years later. It does seem like it was a pretty straight line from Heresy: Kingdom Come through In Nomine, to Exalted. But honestly these people were way more interested in In Nomine than the other two because it seemed to scratch the itch for weird shit to philosophize about much better than the other two games.


That being said, I can't recall any In Nomine campaigns actually lasting any amount of time. People who liked that sort of thing seemed to find talking about the setting to be more interesting and accessible than actually playing the game. Failed to hit the playability threshold of like Cosmic Bumfights.

-Username17
User avatar
Ancient History
Serious Badass
Posts: 12708
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:57 pm

Post by Ancient History »

I might toss Demon: the Fallen in there. One of the inherent issues with this kind of RPG is that while there genuinely is a lot of raw interest in a partial deconstruction of Christian Mythology, tapping into the vast reserves of folklore, occult literature, and Jewish, Islamic, Manichean, etc. mythology that is connected to it, or just taking the piss out of various aspects of it, your audience is generally Sunday School graduates who still have an inherent idea that Christianity is more-or-less the correct "default" religion and everything else is poorly understood. There are folks that would love Preacher: the RPG, but don't want to actually think about what the basic validity of Christian mythos means for, say, the millions of Buddhists and Hindus in the world.
Nath
Master
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:30 pm

Post by Nath »

Background

The first chapter is titled "Background]". In proper French, it should have been "Toile de fond" but the use of the English word "background" is well established among French roleplayers (although many of them have a very approximate understanding of its meaning and are perplexed when you start using the word "foreground" in a discussion).

This chapter is 16 pages long. The first 14 pages cover an history of the world. That's about 13 and five sixth of a page more than what the first edition had. The first edition had a paragraph that said God created the Earth, that Lucifer was fired and that a fight ensued. Which, to be honest, was quite straight to the point to play a game about angels and demons fighting each other.

The setting history was developed over the sourcebooks released for the first edition. Actually, each header in this chapter mentions between brackets the title of the sourcebook that part of history was originally introduced in.

So there is God and Lucifer and all that. Dragons and pagan gods that came into existence in the Dreamworld. Adam and Eve really existed, but were just two humans God picked for an experiment in a closed-environment. The tone is almost serious for five pages, and you could probably believe you're reading some gritty reboot of christian history (or "partial deconstruction" if you prefer)... if wasn't for the illo of Adam, Eve, the Devil and the Apple.

Image
I told you this was different from In Nomine RPG.

Then the tone slightly changed as we get to the birth of Jesus Christ: "It is true that before his coming, signboards for God and its angels were a little bit primitive: Sodom and Gomorrah, the plagues of Egypt and so on the best." Which incidentally is when the game setting is put into to place.

So, Jesus is just one archangel, clearly a favorite of God, but not anymore "His son" than any other angels or demons. However, he was the one who came with the idea to possess a human body and startup a new religion. God loved both idea - "He imagined a huge, planet-sized table football with angels as the chess pieces" - and challenged Satan with the following rules: angels would be sent on Earth possessing the body of faithful volunteers, while demons would possess the body of recently deceased persons.

Image

This is... somewhat important. The part where angels and demons are sent on Earth is, obviously. Some adventures use as a plot point an aspect from the previous life of an angel or demon NPC's host. As far as the PC are concerned, there is a power to have your host being famous and well-connected. IIRC, the third edition would introduce some optional rules to roll for the details.

If I remember correctly, it was specified in some later book that the demons can only possess the body of persons whose death do not result from the action of a supernatural being, so as to avoid the demons from assassinating key people and have someone sent from Hell to take over.

The real important thing, which is not mentionned here, is that you have no way to move to Heaven or Hell and back before your host body is killed. And if that happens, you won't be able to come back on Earth for several centuries. So the characters effectively have one life. If you're new to the game, you would think self-sacrifice can sometimes be an option for the greater good, or the greater bad. Except being stuck in Heaven or Hell for three centuries is not good for your career. And that matters a lot to many NPC. It may not matter to the PC (I'll discuss the actual rules for promotion that apply to them later) but since they want to play the game, they are not going to sacrifice either.

Image

A slightly less important thing, not mentioned here, is that those rules only apply to the rank-and-file angels and demons. Archangels and demons can pop up on Earth anytime and anywhere with the appearance of their choice.

History goes on: four ambitious angels created Islam, to which Satan answered by nominating two demons to specifically deal with this new religion ; angels slaughtered dragons and fairies during the middle ages ; the pagan gods disappeared ; voodoo powers appeared ; ... Some historical events like Joan of Arc are also mentioned as being part of a secret history where angels and demons played a direct role.

The history lesson is not completely useless for gaming, as time travel is available as a power. Rules only prevent angels and demons from fucking up too much with major events. As a result, the typical time-traveling adventure is about going after an angel or a demon gone rogue in such restricted period.

Image
You thought this would stop with Dogma, but this is also a legit inspiration to use for the game

But for the most part, this chapter only covers history that is needed to explain the existence of the different factions, with background information taken from the sourcebooks that originally introduced those factions. You get very little in the way of a "secret history," although the following chapters do drop information about demonic involvements in the 1666 Great Fire of London or the 1988 Lockerbie bombing for instance.

It glances over the current era in a single paragraph, only mentioning some rumors about big events about to come (in this regard, the chapter sticks to the correct meaning of the word "background"). To get some actual plots, you have to turn to the sourcebooks like Rigor Mortis and Deus Ex Machina that were released some times later.

The history section does continue as far as year 3000, introducing the background of Stella Inquisitorius, a separate game (with the same system) that basically merged INS/MV setting with Warhammer 40,000 and La Caste des Meta-Barons. It never enjoyed the success INS/MV has, mostly because it lacked the comtemporary satire angle.

Image
How simple it is when the authors do not try to use not-so-subtle Christian subtext and garbled Latin, and straight out assume there are describing a fascist regime

The last part of the chapter describes what the Marches are. "Marches" refer to both meaning of the word in French, as stair-steps and border territories. Basically, you get Heaven on top, Hell on the bottom, Earth halfway, Purgatory and Dreamlands somewhere, and about every imaginary world someone ever imagined, including various pantheons and other work of fiction. While the game setting postulates the actual existence of God and Satan, and treats other divinities as mere psychic phenomenon created by humans' imagination, there is subtext scattered throughout the line that hints at God and Heaven and everything that came after having been dreamed by the archangel Michael in the first place.

Image

La suite : Système de jeu
Last edited by Nath on Mon May 21, 2018 8:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
Ancient History
Serious Badass
Posts: 12708
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 12:57 pm

Post by Ancient History »

Man, this is sounding more like the background to the Constantine movie.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

It's of course extremely similar to later seasons of Supernatural. The thing is, I don't even know if this represents In Nomine having any particular impact or influence. It's not like having Angels and Demons possessing bodies to do their work on Earth is particularly novel - there's a substantial branch of Christianity which simply holds forth that that is exactly how it works. Like, for real.

-Username17
User avatar
OgreBattle
King
Posts: 6820
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2011 9:33 am

Post by OgreBattle »

"judging by that cover I bet there's boobies inside"

hurrah!
User avatar
Prak
Serious Badass
Posts: 17349
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Prak »

FrankTrollman wrote:It's of course extremely similar to later seasons of Supernatural. The thing is, I don't even know if this represents In Nomine having any particular impact or influence. It's not like having Angels and Demons possessing bodies to do their work on Earth is particularly novel - there's a substantial branch of Christianity which simply holds forth that that is exactly how it works. Like, for real.

-Username17
Yeah, catholic thought, last I heard, was that angels are given bodies by God when sent to Earth, and Demons, being dead to God, must possess the bodies of people to act on Earth. So it's pretty consistent with Christian mythology.
Cuz apparently I gotta break this down for you dense motherfuckers- I'm trans feminine nonbinary. My pronouns are they/them.
Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
Nath
Master
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:30 pm

Post by Nath »

Système de jeu

The next chapter is "Système de jeu" [Gaming system]. INS-MV only uses the most simple and standard type of dice: d6. That being said, INS-MV uses those dice as RNG for the most bizarre, and esoteric system I ever saw.

Most of the time, you roll three dice, called d666. Because of course.

Image

It could have been similar to how you roll a d100 using two d10 to get decimal number, with seximal number instead. But it is not. When the game ask you to roll a d666, you are actually rolling a "d66" under a threshold, and if you rolled under, the third dice gives the margin of success (so, yes, margin of success is totally random).

The only case in which you read the three dice together is if you get 6-6-6 or a 1-1-1. This results in a Devil or God taking notice and making a direct intervention. That is, gamemaster fiat about things going one way or another in a spectacular way.

Image
You know, that critical roll that always occur at the stupidest, most unnecessary moment, when a PC is attempting something lame that is not even related to their goal - well, one of the two most powerful NPC in the setting noticed and decided to do something about it.

I wouldn't discount the the possibility that the entire rule system, and even the entire game, have been designed over the goal to make rolling 6-6-6 on 3d6 being meaningful.

The threshold is set accordingly to a table, with the attribute ("caractéristique") and either the skill ("talent") or power ("pouvoir") used. The six attributes are Strength, Willpower, Agility, Perception, Precision and Appearance. There about two dozens of skills, from Acrobatics to Close combat. Nothing really exotic here.

Attributes ranges from 1 to 6 and skills from +0 to +3.

At this point, you may think it to be slightly counter-intuitive to have zero value being the base rating when the character have knowledge of a skill or power. I'll get back to it.

If you think you have dealt with narrow power scale, try INS/MV. Attribute 3 and skill +2 is the maximum level for a normal human. A starting character (angel or demon) may have attribute 5 and skill +3 in its field of expertise. And an archangel or demon-prince may have attribute 6 and skill +3. But it's not just the numbers. The only way to increase attributes is to get an attribute increase power. The only way to get a +3 skill is to get a super skill power.

You can in theory increase skill through experience. And you are never going to see it. Like, ever. It requires an average of 57 rolls "in a situation that matters" (failed or successful) to get from +0 to +1, and twice as much to reach +2 (experience gained, and thus the number of rolls required, depends on the margin of success). So practically, you will never see the Helicopters or Chemistry skill raised naturally, and if there are any skill that get constant and regular use like Hand-to-hand combat or Seducing, the player will pick the super skill power and directly boost to +3 long before it can happen.

So I said attribute and skill set the threshold according to a table. This is it.

Image

I have a Master of Science, and for the several hours I gave enough fuck to look at it closely, I was never able to crack what was the logic behind those numbers besides "it gets bigger as you move toward left and bottom."

For full err..., clarity, the intermediate columns between attribute value ought to account for task difficulty in some cases. For instance, when you have no knowledge of a skill, you use the 0 line and move a number of columns left depending on the skill (-1 column for running and -8 column for medicine). You can also voluntarily move on the left to increase your margin of success.

So INS/MV not only has a very narrow scale, it also has a resolution system that makes it virtually impossible to estimate what each of those very few available steps of progression actually worth.

If it wasn't for the fact that this table already fuck the entire game up - since it applies to nearly every roll you are going to make - they even managed to add an extra level of fuckery on top of that. That counter-intuitive zero level they used as base rating for skills and powers? It actually has no mathematical meaning in the resolution mechanism. It would make absolutely no difference if they started numbering it at one.

(Personally, I happen to play INS/MV from time to time, but I threw away the d666 and that table a long time ago ; we're simply rolling 2d6+attribute+skill against a threshold instead.)

Combats follow a fairly classic structure within these parameters: roll for attack, roll for defense. The one that succeeds and gets the larger margin of success wins. If the attacker wins, the margin of success turns into damages, plus weapon damage modifier, minus defense margin of success and armor modifier, and you're done.

It won't be until the fourth edition that they would realize that allowing character to use either Perception for instinctive shooting and Precision for aimed shooting, with no significant difference between the two, simply resulted in characters raising one and dumping the other.

The amount of damage one can withstand depends on character type: regular humans get one "Hit Point" per Strength point, demons get two, angels get three, princes-demons get four and archangels get five. So yes, the cards are stacked in favor of angels and archangels here (but more on that later). Damages reduces your Strength attribute, so close combat character better not get hit.

A fairly major point is the bodies possessed by angels or demons disappear when they're "killed." So, disposing of the bodies is not an issue. Actually, since not all angels and demons have the appropriate detection power, and even those only give approximate positions, the fact that the body disappeared often is the only way to be certain you were facing a demon or an angel. A body not disappearing certainly is your typical "oh shit" moment for angels. On the other hand, a body that disappear only makes you certain it was an angel or a demon, but not which one.

Image

Another thing, that applies to both combat and a lot of powers, if both side succeed in an opposed roll, the highest margin of success wins. As said above, the margin of success is the random result of a D6, plus some bonus if you choose to increase difficulty ahead of your roll. This has... implications. Which you may understand if you look hard and long enough at the above table. Which I never was willing to do.

Image

La suite : Création des anges
User avatar
DrPraetor
Duke
Posts: 1289
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:17 pm

Post by DrPraetor »

... it's vaguely sigmoidal?

Image

Cumulatively probability distributions for something like 3D6+X will also be vaguely sigmoidal - there's a threshold skill level where you have a 50/50 chance of success, and near that threshold modifiers are big, while far away from that threshold modifiers are small. On 3D6, though, you have exactly a 50/50 chance at 10-; and 50/50 doesn't appear on the table, it'd be a 41 (although you get 43s instead?).

It's kinda similar to 3D6 + attribute + skill >= 15, but not quite - it also has weird jumps if you look at the columns between that don't even make sense as a sigmoid.
Chaosium rules are made of unicorn pubic hair and cancer. --AncientH
When you talk, all I can hear is "DunningKruger" over and over again like you were a god damn Pokemon. --Username17
Fuck off with the pony murder shit. --Grek
User avatar
Chamomile
Prince
Posts: 4632
Joined: Tue May 03, 2011 10:45 am

Post by Chamomile »

You don't need some weird new system for 6-6-6 to be a significant result. That's just a critical hit in a 3d6 rollover system. And one of the advantages of 3d6 rollover is that you can have critical effects without turning the story into absurdist comedy because 1/216 comes up like once every three sessions instead of three times per session.
Korwin
Duke
Posts: 2055
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:49 am
Location: Linz / Austria

Post by Korwin »

I remember this, not shure if I red it in german or english...
Red_Rob wrote: I mean, I'm pretty sure the Mayans had a prophecy about what would happen if Frank and PL ever agreed on something. PL will argue with Frank that the sky is blue or grass is green, so when they both separately piss on your idea that is definitely something to think about.
GâtFromKI
Knight-Baron
Posts: 513
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:14 am

Post by GâtFromKI »

Nath wrote:So I said attribute and skill set the threshold according to a table. This is it.

Image

I have a Master of Science, and for the several hours I gave enough fuck to look at it closely, I was never able to crack what was the logic behind those numbers besides "it gets bigger as you move toward left and bottom."

For full err..., clarity, the intermediate columns between attribute value ought to account for task difficulty in some cases. For instance, when you have no knowledge of a skill, you use the 0 line and move a number of columns left depending on the skill (-1 column for running and -8 column for medicine). You can also voluntarily move on the left to increase your margin of success.
To be fair, the table in the latest edition is:
Image
You simply look at the column corresponding to your attribute or skill on the first line, and the second line shows the threshold (the last line is for opposed test - but some opposed tests use a different system for some reason). Skills have a default score equal to half the associated attribute: eg with a Strength of 3, your base Athletism is 1+. The difficulty is taken into account by changing the column (eg +4 column for an "easy" task); the base difficulty is "hard", so with a score of 2 (the score of a competent human) you have one chance over two to succeed at a hard task.

The system is still quite byzantine, but far less than 1st ed; this is maybe the main difference between INS/MV and other games from the same time period (like CoC): INS/MV tried to improve its system along the different editions. (They didn't want to give up with the d66 and d666 since it's the "signature" of INS/MV, but they tried to create a better system).

Another example of the improvements: in 1e, during character creation you roll to determine what power you get, and some of those powers are flaws. So one character is able to summon a flying intelligent machinegun, while another one has fucking wings which don't grant any flying ability but he needs to hide it to maintain the simili-masquerade. In the latest edition, character creation use a buy-point system - it's not perfectly balanced, but it's still better than 1e.

The latest edition even acknowledge some skills are very useful for game purpose and some other are bullshit: each time you gain a point in a useful skill, you may add a point in a bullshit skill. When you add one point in Combat (my holy baseball bat), you can add a point in Science (geology). Acknowledging you shouldn't be forced to chose between "stabbing people in the face" and "improving some useless aspect of my character" is quite unusual for a game edited in the 2000's.

So the game is far from perfect; but contrary to some other games, they at least tried to improve it.
Last edited by GâtFromKI on Tue May 22, 2018 10:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
Nath
Master
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:30 pm

Post by Nath »

And that I can make sense of. An attribute point is equivalent to half a skill point, the leftmost and rightmost jumps on the table are worth 1/36, the next three on both sides are worth 2/36, and the middle six are worth 3/36, approximating a regular, symmetric curve.

To be fair, people had a really vague idea of what made a game system good or bad in 1989. And that's their best excuse. It took thirteen or fourteen years and three editions before Croc recognized INS/MV system wasn't good. He did not even correct it himself - Olivier Fanton was hired to do it. Not that the number of years really matters. What it took was Wizard of the Coast to take over Dungeons & Dragons and the release of D&D3 for the entire industry - save Chaosium - to realize customers were willing to do the switch to better rulesets.
User avatar
DrPraetor
Duke
Posts: 1289
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:17 pm

Post by DrPraetor »

GâtFromKI wrote: To be fair, the table in the latest edition is:
Image
So, wait, is 11 a 0% or 1/36 chance of success?

Is 66 100%?

This is a weird way of sorta doing 2D6, for which probabilities run 0,1,3,6,10,15,21,26,30,33,35,36 - /36 chance of failing.

Assuming 11 = 1/36 and 66 = 36/36,
LN 2D6
x 13+?
11 12+
12
13 11+
15 ~10+ (5/36?)
21 ~10+ (7/36?)
23 ~9+ (9/36?)
26
33 8+
36
43 7+
46
53 ~6+ (27/36?)
55 ~5+ (29/36?)
61 ~5+ (31/36?)
63 4+
64
65 3+
66 2+

With enough dice I'm sure there would be an exact threshold corresponding to 27/36 chance of success, but it's still weird.
Chaosium rules are made of unicorn pubic hair and cancer. --AncientH
When you talk, all I can hear is "DunningKruger" over and over again like you were a god damn Pokemon. --Username17
Fuck off with the pony murder shit. --Grek
Nath
Master
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:30 pm

Post by Nath »

Création des anges

The next chapter is titled "Création des anges" [Creation of angels]. It starts with a short story. From now on, there will be plenty of those. I mean, plenty. Not just like one at the beginning of each chapter: there are twelve in this chapter, fourteen in the following, and five more in the last chapter.

Those stories amounted for a large part in INS/MV fame, with they (very) dark humor, the mockery of French society at large, and some nods to 1980s and 1990s news stories.

Image
If you remember this South Park episode, that's the kind of plot we're talking about

The first short story in this chapter happens to be far from being the most memorable one. The second one is about an angel leading his skinhead paramilitary squad into a reggae concert to hunt a demon, making all kind of racist comments over the radio, until he glitches (666 roll) Detect Evil, starts slaughtering the crowd and wonder why the bodies do not disappear as they should.

See, INS/MV is not really about the struggle between Good and Evil. In this game, demons are described either as psychopaths or pathetic losers. Most angels are either neo-nazis or hippies. Which, you might remark, is not so different from demons, except they got a cause. And that would be a very accurate remark. Depending on the players, you either play a game where the PC are the only "sane" creatures around, or you totally embrace the insanity. Strictly speaking, INS/MV is only about the struggle between angels and demons. As noted above, angels get to win the battle not because they are the good guy, but because they mechanically get more hit points. And the setting has it that they are winning battles but ultimately losing the war.

Image
Actually, the God of INS/MV doesn't even care about what's going on.

The sourcebook Rigor Mortis would later give a fairly accurate description of how INS/MV groups usually evolved:

Level 1: PC play combat-oriented demons and kill angels and spread mayhem. Then they tell everyone INS/MV is trash, fun and boring.
Level 2: PC play combat-oriented angels and kill demons, except one who play a servant of Dominique and try to denounce the others. They tell everyone INS/MV is a fascist game.
Level 3: PC play manipulation-oriented demons to torture humans. Then they tell everyone INS/MV is all about ambiance.
Level 4: PC play a balanced team of angels who become cynical or disillusioned and try to find an escape. Then they tell everyone INS/MV is a great game.
Level 5: PC play a balanced team of demons who become cynical or disillusioned and try to find an escape. But it's harder to play a disillusioned evil being.
Image
But let's go back to the nominal subject of this chapter. More or less. The "creation of angels" starts with the number of attributes and skill points God's human servants gets. Which is not what you're supposed to play. They normally are only NPC, though you'll learn later that PC can get some of those under their command (still, it is nowhere stated whether the GM or the player gets to choose stats and powers for those servants).

On the following page, you get to how to create an angel player character, with 20 points to spread between attributes, 8 points to spread between skills (1 point give +0 level, 2 pts +1, 4 pts +2) and 4 powers. You choose one archangel as your boss (more on that below), and choose one power among the six he/she favors (one of which is a special power, not featured in the global list and only available to PC this way). Then you roll the three other powers, in a half random way : either roll 1D6 in your archangel favored powers list, either roll D66 in the full table (216 entries numbered from 111 to 666) and pick the category that suits you.

Rolling 5 and 1 for instance, let's you chose between 151-Disease healing, 251-Force field, 351-Strength augmentation, 451-Leading position inside Greenpeace or 551-Boyscouts organization on call. 651 belongs to the penalty list, in this case Sexual act interdiction, which you would not choose at this point.

Image
This can be a core concept for your character! Think about it!

As I mentioned above, the attribute and skill have a very narrow power scale, and attribute augmentation and super skill are actually powers. So the entire character progression is about getting new powers or increase existing ones. You're not going to actually raise your skills the "natural way" and there are no such thing as XP in this game. Which we get to learn in this chapter, because not only does the chapter titled "Création des anges" cover the creation of other types of characters, it also covers character progression.

Angels (or demons) will receive missions from a dispatcher (the upper command remaining in Heaven or Hell, using supernatural means of communication). If you fail, you receive a random "Limitation" (penalty, like sexual act interdiction, paranoia, apparent wings...). If you succeed, "normal victory" grants a roll for a new power (or increase an existing one), while "full victory" gives the right to pick a power at will. Marginal victory is also possible, with no gain and no pain.

Image
Unlike the Eiffel Tower, this is actually related to the topic at hand: nearly all angelic adventures start with a briefing in the secret headquarters hidden under Notre-Dame-de-Paris

Published adventures usually set precisely what is considered failure, normal victory or full victory. Something like, NPC A and B escapes = failure; NPC A or B is killed = normal victory; NPC A is captured = full victory. Some adventures handed out a number of points for each objective and grants full victory past a given score. However, it is also pretty common for adventures (starting with those featured in this book) to factor into victory conditions elements that the PC are not told about when they start. So depending on who wrote the adventure you're playing, full victory can be casual or nigh impossible.

Image
Definitively not an INS/MV inspiration.

Characters also gets a hierarchical rank. New characters start at rank 0, first mission fulfilled gets you rank 1, reaching 20 power points automatically gets you rank 2. Since the number of power points equal Willpower+number of powers, that is going to happen after 9 to 15 missions (almost) no matter what. Rank 3 is only available by GM fiat when you achieve something that would make your archangel proud (on the level of beating a prince-demon or saving dozens of lives).

Each rank gives you a fancy title (like Servant of Judgment Day or Friend of the Wises) and a special ability only available to your archangel's servants. They rarely are game-changer, some being virtually useless (automatically knowing which year a building you look at have been built), some other occasionally coming in the foreground (automatically detecting nearby unlawful acts).

Image
But they all sound like titles for a metal album

Oh, a character with even only one penalty can no longer rise in rank. You need first your archangel to remove it, something for which no rule or guideline is provided. Like, at all. In any book from any edition of the game, as far as I remember. Remember the published adventures precisely defined failure conditions? So, if you go by the rules, the entire team is just one bad roll or wrong decision away from never ever getting a promotion again.

The archangel you pick as your boss is fairly important. That's basically your clan or your character class. You're more or less supposed to play a smaller version of your titular archangel, but there are mechanically nothing that keeps you from spending attribute and skill points and picking powers as you want. The only thing that push you in the "right" direction is that first power you have to pick among the archangel's favorite powers, and access to its special power and special abilities.

The rest of the chapter describes ten archangels. Each description features a short story on one page, and on the other page the archangel actual stats (though the book states they get all powers and skills +0 as needed), their unique powers, a few lines on how they became archangel in the first place, their view on several topics such as violence, politics, animals or their servants, and a score that tells how likely he is to come to your rescue if you summon him.

Image
To be true, they rarely bother to show up with wings and shiny armor.

Blandine is the archangel of Dreams. Non violent hippie, with mental powers.
Daniel is the archangel of Stone. Violent skinhead.
Dominique is the archangel of Justice. Inquisitor type.
Janus is the archangel of Winds. Basically thief.
Jean is the archangel of Lightning. Inventor/tecchie.
Khalid is the (muslim) archangel of Faith. Muslim warrior.
Laurent is the archangel of the Sword. Military warrior.
Michel is the archangel of War. Lone warrior, viking style (counter-intuitively, not related to Michael: this archangel is a converted viking promoted as archangel)
Novalis is the archangel of Flowers. Ecolo-hippie.
Yves (aka Michael) is the archangel of Sources. Scholar-type.

The full list (second edition) was featured in the Scriptarium Veritas, with all 3 muslim archangels and 26 "christian" archangels (though four of them are not "playable", for not having any servant).

There are rivalries and rude remarks between archangels and their servants, but you're not supposed to beat the crap of each other out. Investigating rivals' failures and misdemeanors, on the other hand, is encouraged. Even muslim archangels and angels, which constitute a wholly separate faction (with a parallel Heaven), are not supposed to fight with them.

Since muslims are a separate faction and you only get one archangel, Khalid, to play as far as this book goes (among just three), if you want to create a team of muslim angels, "being muslim" is going to be your character type (since "terrorist" is a demon class).

Image
Even in the 1990ies, playing a combat-oriented muslim angel in France already was a bit like playing a cybered troll in Shadowrun

BTW, the second edition rulebook makes it like all angels are catholic angels, supported by the catholic church. It only came later (third edition I think) to make jewish or protestant angels a thing, albeit serving the same archangels, but escaping as much as possible the catholic/angelic strict hierarchy.

Most of the archangels have a standard model for servant. Your typical Michel angel is going to be a bearded, long-haired, all-leather or all-jeans, with a sword or an axe. Laurent angel? Trendy, magical sword, far-right connections. Yves angel? Old, reading glasses, library. And so on. Whether adventures, gamemasters or players managed to defy those expectations to introduce original characters was often the key to playing more than a handful of sessions.

Image
Good gamemasters and marketers have more in common than I'd like to admit.


La suite : Création des démons
Nath
Master
Posts: 262
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:30 pm

Post by Nath »

GâtFromKI wrote:Another example of the improvements: in 1e, during character creation you roll to determine what power you get, and some of those powers are flaws. So one character is able to summon a flying intelligent machinegun, while another one has fucking wings which don't grant any flying ability but he needs to hide it to maintain the simili-masquerade.
Actually, while the full d666 random roll was introduced in the rules as the standard way to pick a power, it was not and only applied to PC to select the extra power they received for taking a penalty. Which could result in receiving a second penalty. Not sure if that was a bug or a feature.

Otherwise, all the powers acquired during character creation or after completing a mission were rolled with a d66 and choosing the domain.

The only other time you were rolling powers with a d666 was to select the powers of intelligent weapons and magical items. The 2nd edition added an instruction to reroll if the result did not make sense (though as a GM, I sometimes found it funnier to keep the penalty attached to the object use, along with an extra power point - for instance making wings appear on the character when he summons his magical machine gun - and allow to roll for another power, and another power point).
GâtFromKI
Knight-Baron
Posts: 513
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2011 10:14 am

Post by GâtFromKI »

DrPraetor wrote: So, wait, is 11 a 0% or 1/36 chance of success?

Is 66 100%?
11 is a 1/36 chance of success, 66 is a 100% chance of success.

This is a weird way of sorta doing 2D6, for which probabilities run 0,1,3,6,10,15,21,26,30,33,35,36 - /36 chance of failing.
It's more like "sorta rolling 1d12".
13 = 12+
21 = 11+
23 = 10+
31 = 9+
etc.

With enough dice I'm sure there would be an exact threshold corresponding to 27/36 chance of success, but it's still weird.
Actually there is a third d6 involved: it indicate your degree of success (if the d66 indicate a success). Since you roll 3d6 in a game about angels and demons, rolling a 666 obviously indicate the intervention of Satan: a critical success if you play a demon, a fumble if you play an angel (111 is a divine intervention).

It's a weird mechanic indeed, but this is somehow the "signature" of the game: for many French roleplayer who played INV/MV a couple of time and don't remember much, it is "the satiric/sarcastic game where you roll 1d666 and a 666 indicate an intervention of the Devil".
Omegonthesane
Prince
Posts: 3692
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2009 3:55 pm

Post by Omegonthesane »

Wow, In Nomine butchered the source material.

Although Steve Jackson Games had the right idea replacing the d666 lookup table with "2d6 and a check digit" faced with that or not bothering with the thing.
Kaelik wrote:Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.

Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath, Justin Bieber, shitmuffin
Post Reply