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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Please shut up tussock. The Polish law forbids people from saying that Poles participated in or supported the holocaust. Obviously, as it is factually true that large numbers of Poles supported and participated in the holocaust, that law is deliberately and exclusively intended to silence people from speaking truthfully about the holocaust. That is 100% of what the law does.

-Frank
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tussock
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Please check your facts, Frank.

the actual law wrote:
Article 55a. 1. Whoever claims, publicly and contrary to the facts, that the Polish Nation or the Republic of Poland is responsible or co-responsible for Nazi crimes committed by the Third Reich, as specified in Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal enclosed to the International agreement for the prosecution and punishment of the major war criminals of the European Axis, signed in London on 8 August 1945 (Polish Journal of Laws of 1947, item 367), or for other felonies that constitute crimes against peace, crimes against humanity or war crimes, or whoever otherwise grossly diminishes the responsibility of the true perpetrators of said crimes – shall be liable to a fine or imprisonment for up to 3 years. The sentence shall be made public.
2. If the act specified in clause 1 is committed unintentionally, the perpetrator shall be liable to a fine or a restriction of liberty.
3. No offence is committed if the criminal act specified in clauses 1 and 2 is committed in the course of the one’s artistic or academic activity.


There's more, to define things like the basic notion that the state is allowed to protect it's own reputation, and who has jurisdiction, and where the fines end up, because it's a law, but, like, what the fuck are you even talking about?

Obviously these guys are assholes, and obviously laws like this are problematic for all sorts of reasons, but thing you purport is the only thing it says, is a thing it doesn't even say at all.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-polands-controversial-holocaust-legislation/

My source for the English translation. I trust they put some effort into that.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

tussock wrote:
Please check your facts, Frank.

the actual law wrote:
Article 55a. 1. Whoever claims, publicly and contrary to the facts, that the Polish Nation or the Republic of Poland is responsible or co-responsible for Nazi crimes committed by the Third Reich, as specified in Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal enclosed to the International agreement for the prosecution and punishment of the major war criminals of the European Axis, signed in London on 8 August 1945 (Polish Journal of Laws of 1947, item 367), or for other felonies that constitute crimes against peace, crimes against humanity or war crimes, or whoever otherwise grossly diminishes the responsibility of the true perpetrators of said crimes – shall be liable to a fine or imprisonment for up to 3 years. The sentence shall be made public.
2. If the act specified in clause 1 is committed unintentionally, the perpetrator shall be liable to a fine or a restriction of liberty.
3. No offence is committed if the criminal act specified in clauses 1 and 2 is committed in the course of the one’s artistic or academic activity.


There's more, to define things like the basic notion that the state is allowed to protect it's own reputation, and who has jurisdiction, and where the fines end up, because it's a law, but, like, what the fuck are you even talking about?

Obviously these guys are assholes, and obviously laws like this are problematic for all sorts of reasons, but thing you purport is the only thing it says, is a thing it doesn't even say at all.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/full-text-of-polands-controversial-holocaust-legislation/

My source for the English translation. I trust they put some effort into that.


What the shit? Why do you copypasta things that prove you are wrong and then act like they vindicate you?

Hint: "The Polish Nation" means "People who are Polish." That is what the term fucking means. Saying that any Polish person participated in any way in the holocaust is by definition saying that "The Polish Nation" is "Co-Responsible" for Nazi crimes against humanity. Because that is what words mean, you stupid fuck.

-Frank
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Grek
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Normally, I would quibble about whether individual collaborators who happened to be poles could really be said to be the "Polish Nation". But if you further look down, you'll see this delightful piece of work:

Poland, apparently wrote:
2) Article 2 shall be followed by Article 2a, reading:
“Article 2a. Within the meaning of the Act, crimes committed by Ukrainian nationalists and members of Ukrainian units collaborating with the Third Reich constitute acts committed by Ukrainian nationalists between 1925 and 1950 which involved the use of violence, terror or other human rights violations against individuals or population groups. Participating in the extermination of the Jewish population and genocide of citizens of the Second Polish Republic in Volhynia and Eastern Malopolska [Lesser Poland] also constitute a crime committed by Ukrainian nationalists and members of Ukrainian units collaborating with the Third Reich.”;
According to Poland, the collaborators were actually secret "Ukrainian nationalists" and definitely not Poles we pinky promise that wasn't us.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That would be an easier sell if pre-WW2 Poland didn't have an established history of antisemitic ethnic nationalism.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
That would be an easier sell if pre-WW2 Poland didn't have an established history of antisemitic ethnic nationalism.

That's an extraordinarily kind translation of 'pogroms'
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
That would be an easier sell if pre-WW2 Poland didn't have an established history of antisemitic ethnic nationalism.


Or Post WW2 poland for that matter.
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tussock
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Hint: "The Polish Nation" means "People who are Polish." That is what the term fucking means. Saying that any Polish person participated in any way in the holocaust is by definition saying that "The Polish Nation" is "Co-Responsible" for Nazi crimes against humanity. Because that is what words mean, you stupid fuck.

-Frank


No, I have to disagree, again.

dictionary.com, Nation: a large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own:

The polish nation is by definition the resistance to Poland being annexed by Nazi Germany, or parcelled up to other neighbouring states, on account of them continuing to seek to possess a government peculiarly their own, because the Polish government was in exile in Britain. And yes, that means the people during WWII who thought they should live under the German government are German nationalists, and the people who wanted to be part of Ukraine instead are Ukrainian nationalists. Even after being born in a place called Poland both before and after the war.

Like, you know, the KKK are white nationalists. With words meaning things.

30% of the pre-war Polish population was murdered by the Nazis, during WWII, after said Nazis chased the government out and set about exterminating everyone who objected in any way at any point, and while millions of Polish people collaborated there was also millions of Polish people murdered by the Nazis for failing to collaborate (or for being Jewish, or it being Tuesday, as the case may be).

Obviously there was Nazis born in Poland, and Poland has a long and nasty history of pogroms like everyone else in Europe does, and obviously the Polish nationalism at the time of WWII opposed those Nazis too.

If you want to argue about what the words mean, that's what those words mean.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tussock, for once in your fucking life can you just accept that you are wrong and eat your fucking crow instead of continually doubling down like a crazy person? The Nation is the People. The State is the Republic. If you specify both the nation and the republic separately, you are making that distinction.

For fuck's sake.

-Frank
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tussock, would you think it wise to go to Poland, and go round telling people that Polish people participated in the Holocaust? I mean, from a legal PoV, not in a getting beaten up by Holocaust deniers sort of way.

Now, as written, that looks like it says the government of Poland wasn't responsible. Which, due to not existing anymore, or possibly being in exile or defending Tobruk at the time, fair enough. Also, when Nazis have conquered your country, you've got a very good defence in the form of acting under duress.

But what it says and what it means are often not the same thing.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thaluikhain wrote:
Tussock, would you think it wise to go to Poland, and go round telling people that Polish people participated in the Holocaust? I mean, from a legal PoV, not in a getting beaten up by Holocaust deniers sort of way.

Now, as written, that looks like it says the government of Poland wasn't responsible. Which, due to not existing anymore, or possibly being in exile or defending Tobruk at the time, fair enough. Also, when Nazis have conquered your country, you've got a very good defence in the form of acting under duress.

But what it says and what it means are often not the same thing.


No. You are giving tussock to =o much credit for not being an idiot. He even quoted the fucking dictionary (a thing people do when they have no argument), and it still showed how he was fucking wrong.

While we often conflate "Nation" and "State" the two are very importantly different concepts. A Nation is a defined group of people, and a State is a defined corporate entity that has laws and controls territory and has citizens. A Nation State is a corporate entity of laws that happens to use a defined group of people as its nominal reason for existence.

The concept of the Nation-State is basically entirely foreign to people in North or South America because there fucking aren't any. And so American media often just talks about "Nations" and "States" as if they are the same thing - it also does not help that the United States of America calls its provinces "States" and also declares itself to be "One Nation" in its pledge of allegiance despite not actually recognizing any Nations at all other than Native American Nations in any of its laws. But actually factually those are not the same thing, and in Europe that's really fucking important.

So for example, you have the "Six Nations" championship which sees rugby teams representing the French, English, Italian, Irish, Scots, and Welsh nations - which are independent of the states of France, Italy, Ireland, and United Kingdom. Indeed, people in Northern Ireland are in the same State as England, but in the same Nation as the Republic of Ireland, so a star rugby player from Belfast plays on the same team as a player from London in the Olympics, but on the same team as a player from Dublin in the Six Nations. Because the Olympics is by Country and the yearly Rugby championships are by Nation.

Now in Eastern Europe there are actually a lot of Nation-States. Countries that use the existence and extent of a Nation in order to create a narrative by which they have the mandate of heaven and continue to validly exist. And the relationship those Nation-States have with the fact that there are people of other Nations that live inside their established Country borders while also there are people of their avatar Nation that live outside them is complicated and often unfortunate. Sometimes Russia invades The Ukraine because there's a region that the majority of people are some flavor or another of Russian by Nation if not by Country. And sometimes the Hungarian government gives the right to vote in Hungarian elections to ethnic Hungarians who do not and never have lived within the current borders of Hungary. You know, shit like that.

So when the government of Poland makes special note to talk about the Polish Nation or the Republic of Poland, they aren't being senselessly longwinded. They aren't being linguistically imprecise. They are saying exactly what they mean to say. They are saying that if you say that either Polish People or the government that claimed to speak for the Polish People was responsible or co-responsible for the holocaust, that they will throw your ass in jail. And since it is a fucking fact that there were Polish People who worked for the Nazis, this law is as insane as it is evil.

It doesn't look like it says the government of Poland wasn't responsible. It says that both the government of Poland and the Polish People have no amount of responsibility at all. That is what it says. That is what it fucking obviously says, because it makes an explicit point to mention both the Republic and the Nation. And it makes a special point to mention Responsibility and Co-Responsibility. Like I fucking pointed out the first fucking time that Tussock dredged up his bullshit of quoting shit he doesn't begin to understand.

-Frank
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tussock
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Like, when you're in France, if you want to talk about the war period, you're gunna be talking about Occupied France, Vichy France, the resistance (and realistically, regionally isolated cells within the resistance), also people hanging out in exile, you know, different groups. Because those words probably matter quite a lot to French people, and you wouldn't go all insisting that the French nation was Nazis during WWII, because that'd be fucking stupid and weird, and probably a bit Nazi. The assistance the Nazis got there was from "Occupied France" and "collaborators", and a little bit from Vichy France, and not from "France" or "the French people", per se.

So, I think if you're in Poland, and they're asking you to stop calling the Polish nation Nazis, on the grounds that, you know, like in France, there was lots of collaborators, but the nation was broadly opposed to being part of that, and in fact was on the other side of the war busily getting killed by the Nazis, then ... yeah, I'm going to do that and not fuss at all.


The statement of the people who passed the law is they don't expect it to be used and will change it if it is. It's basically a request to the international community to stop calling the local collaborators "Polish". Which, like, fine, they want the same treatment France has had forever, and this is how they bought attention to it after no one listened otherwise, and it's ugly as fuck, and I think they'll probably change it.


Maybe, for Americans, you might note, during the civil war there, a big chunk of the country stopped being referred to as Americans and are instead referred to as Confederates, and then after the war they're Americans again, just from the south. Words, meaning things.
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Whipstitch
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hey tussock, you should grant me power of attorney. I pinkie swear I won't abuse it and I totally won't even try to use it to win this argument.
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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tussock,

You're just wrong.

People from France do talk about French collaborators and French Resistance fighters. They talk about Vichy as a legitimate French government and they have a complex relationship with the events of World War II. They like to pretend that they were all resistance fighters, just like Americans all like to pretend that we wouldn't have been slave owners in the 18th or 19th century.

But they didn't pass a law making it so you couldn't talk about culpability, even though it is an uncomfortable subject.

The polish law is designed to silence the conversation and pretend that nothing happened (and if it did, it was entirely Nazis with no help from anyone else, despite evidence to the contrary). That's clearly fucked up. Cooperation with a hostile regime that will shoot you for any perceived disobedience certainly can go a long way to explain morally questionable actions that you may have taken. This law is so that everyone can just pretend that anyone who lived in Poland (or was Polish) didn't have anything to do with it.
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've been getting YouTube ads about the Nazi invasion of Poland and how Poles and Jews suffered side by side under the Third Reich and etc. I assume this is related. What exactly is this point of this revisionism? Why is Poland so terribly interested in establishing the views that the Polish people were, in their entirety, victims and definitely not collaborators? Like, I'm not surprised the Polish government wants to push that perspective in general, but they seem to be putting an awful lot of effort into it right now.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chamomile wrote:
I've been getting YouTube ads about the Nazi invasion of Poland and how Poles and Jews suffered side by side under the Third Reich and etc. I assume this is related. What exactly is this point of this revisionism? Why is Poland so terribly interested in establishing the views that the Polish people were, in their entirety, victims and definitely not collaborators? Like, I'm not surprised the Polish government wants to push that perspective in general, but they seem to be putting an awful lot of effort into it right now.


I think the nazis are coming to power in Poland now?
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

And as we all know, the first rule of being in Nazi Club: You do not talk about being in Nazi Club.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

tussock wrote:

Maybe, for Americans, you might note, during the civil war there, a big chunk of the country stopped being referred to as Americans and are instead referred to as Confederates, and then after the war they're Americans again, just from the south.

Right, so... this is really simple. All of this is wrong, on just about every level.

Parts are pure anachronism, parts are simply factually wrong and it demonstrates a complete lack of comprehension of the very BASICS of the topic. Stop talking.

The basic fact that you can still meet people on the street 150 years later who hold those regional identities as more important than their identity as American, pre and post war, (and that regional identity isn't and wasn't ever 'Confederates') demonstrates fundamentally that you're talking total shit.

Or maybe don't stop talking. Go to Georgia and mutter this rot and get your teeth kicked in. That might be the type of learning that will work for you.


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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chamomile wrote:
I've been getting YouTube ads about the Nazi invasion of Poland and how Poles and Jews suffered side by side under the Third Reich and etc. I assume this is related. What exactly is this point of this revisionism? Why is Poland so terribly interested in establishing the views that the Polish people were, in their entirety, victims and definitely not collaborators? Like, I'm not surprised the Polish government wants to push that perspective in general, but they seem to be putting an awful lot of effort into it right now.


I presume that it's meant to appeal to nationalists and antisemites at home. That is, it's a way for the leading political party to get more votes from assholes at the small cost of the Poland's international reputation. And that's a small loss, really, because who the fuck cares about Poland? The entire country eats some outrage, and they get to point out how they're fighting against the evil lying Jews who hate Poland for extra antisemite votes.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chamomile wrote:
I've been getting YouTube ads about the Nazi invasion of Poland and how Poles and Jews suffered side by side under the Third Reich and etc. I assume this is related. What exactly is this point of this revisionism? Why is Poland so terribly interested in establishing the views that the Polish people were, in their entirety, victims and definitely not collaborators? Like, I'm not surprised the Polish government wants to push that perspective in general, but they seem to be putting an awful lot of effort into it right now.


The current Polish government is a hard right anti-democracy government. They have been pushing through a number of reforms that undermine the rule of law and basic democratic institutions. Unsurprisingly, the European Union has been pushing back slightly against various of those measures through various channels.

The European Union is, for obvious reasons, heavily identified with Germany. The current Polish government is pushing an anti-historical "Poles are good, Germans are bad" PR campaign in order to get people to support Poland in its various spats with the EU leadership. Which mostly involve EU courts suggesting that various press-gag orders and judiciary packing measures violate various treaty declarations because they obviously do.

Given Russia's prominence in supporting the rise of international fascism, I leave the meaning of a narrative created by Polish fascists where everything that was ever bad in Polish history is the fault of Germans or Ukrainians to the reader.

-Frank
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
So when the government of Poland makes special note to talk about the Polish Nation or the Republic of Poland, they aren't being senselessly longwinded. They aren't being linguistically imprecise. They are saying exactly what they mean to say. They are saying that if you say that either Polish People or the government that claimed to speak for the Polish People was responsible or co-responsible for the holocaust, that they will throw your ass in jail. And since it is a fucking fact that there were Polish People who worked for the Nazis, this law is as insane as it is evil.


Well, I was leaning towards them repeating themselves to avoid wiggle room (especially as we only have a translation), but you make a convincing argument. In any case, yeah, this would be a terrible thing even if it was historical fact that no Poles were involved.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 16, 2018 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chamomile wrote:
I've been getting YouTube ads about the Nazi invasion of Poland and how Poles and Jews suffered side by side under the Third Reich and etc. I assume this is related. What exactly is this point of this revisionism? Why is Poland so terribly interested in establishing the views that the Polish people were, in their entirety, victims and definitely not collaborators? Like, I'm not surprised the Polish government wants to push that perspective in general, but they seem to be putting an awful lot of effort into it right now.

I believe it's because the standard antisemite narrative that those hand-rubbing jews will keep asking for reparations monies as long as the honest white folk admit to any guilt. So by making it a criminal offense to say that poles had any to do with the atrocities they helped to commit, Poland will keep the happy merchants away.

TL;DR: In the eyes of its creators, this law is a ward against jewish trickery and I sure wish I was joking or even exaggerating for comedy effect. Sometimes I also wish we weren't stuck in this stupid timeline.
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