Dominions V

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Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob »

FrankTrollman wrote:As for Tough Skin vs Fortitude, Tough Skin seems a lot better to me. And not just because it saves you 48 design points. Let's consider the effects on a Fomorian Giant:

It has 6 protection (all natural) on the face, and 16 protection (mixed) on the body. So Tough Skin saves you from 5 damage to the face, or 3 damage to the body. Fortitude saves you from half the damage you take after protection. So it's better than Tough Skin if you get hit for 18+ damage to the face or 24+ damage to the body. And it's worse than Tough Skin if you take 14 or less damage to the face or 20 or less damage to the body. Since most attacks are less than 20 damage, Tough Skin is usually pulling even or ahead just in absolute terms. Also it works against Fire and Cold damage while Fortitude does not.

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When you factor in the 20% protection reduction for Piercing attacks, and the 20% damage bonus for Slashing attacks after armor, I get the feeling Fortitude comes out ahead more often than not. Also I'd highlight that when you have regeneration you aren't generally going to die from being nickel-and-dimed by 1 or 2 damage hits anyway, it's the spike damage and high damage attacks that will pose the greatest risk. Those are precisely the things Fortitude helps against, so I'd say it is worth the extra investment in most cases.
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Post by Username17 »

Red Rob wrote:the 20% damage bonus for Slashing attacks after armor
That doesn't change the point of payoff at all. If you get a 16 point sword blow to the head:
  • With Tough Skin you have 11 protection, so there's 5 damage past your protection and you lose 6 hit points.
  • With Fortitude you halve the post-protection damage, but you only have 6 protection so there's 10 points past your protection, which is halved to 5 and you still lose 6 hit points.
The blunt face multiplier also doesn't change the payoff point at all. Again, the amount of damage is multiplied after protection, so the point where Fortitude and Tough Skin are the same is the same either way.

As for being nickle and dimed to death, it's not that likely with archery (although it's better to take no damage at all from more archery hits from the standpoint of picking up afflictions). But in melee your giants are often personally being pitted against two or three squares worth of bullshit human infantry. So turns where you get attacked by 9 spears or hatchets is very much a thing (and your defense is pretty much zero against the later attacks), and that will do 2-3 points of damage more often than you can heal it by a considerable margin.

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Shatner
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Post by Shatner »

I'm still experimenting with 'em but LA Pangaea's Centuride Crossbows is pretty interesting.

30gp for an archer is, historically, a bad idea. However, they have a precision of 15 for their crossbows, so they actually hit stuff, the fact that they're stronger translates into more damage on the accurate armor-piercing shot, they carry a shield, have body protection of 19, two melee attacks (short sword, hoof), a defense of 16, recuperation, high map and combat speed, and solid stats across the board (including morale).

The thing is you can have a line of centuride crossbows up front and they'll shoot at whatever you tell 'em to shoot and then do a really solid job holding the line against whatever closes to melee. Most indies, cavalry included, die/break and then your centurides go right back to shooting. With heavy armor, high precision, 18hp, and a shield, they win all archery contests. It's a really interesting and extremely versatile unit.

The only real problem is that they refuse to wear a hat. What few deaths they do suffer at the hands of indies are all someone getting a lucky head shot and dropping 'em. Being size-3, human infantry seem to have poorer odds of hitting there than average, but if you're fighting giants, I expect head shots to be more common.

As an aside, site searching with LA Pangaea is frustrating. Not because they have poor diversity but because their sole source of air, water, and astral is a bookworm you want to never leave the lab except when they show up in force to Voltron together with communions to kill armies... before going back to the lab. Needing to have 4 mages cover all of your paths searching irks me... but maybe that's because I've been spoiled playing EA and MA T'ien Ch'i.
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maglag
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Post by maglag »

Shatner wrote: Being size-3, human infantry seem to have poorer odds of hitting there than average, but if you're fighting giants, I expect head shots to be more common.
That is correct, the chances of hitting a body part depends on the size difference among other things. Weapon length can make up for size difference. Ulm pikemen in particular can gouge out giant's eyes and stab them in the chest while ulm axemen are mostly left clipping giant toenails.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Shatner wrote:I'm still experimenting with 'em but LA Pangaea's Centuride Crossbows is pretty interesting.
There's two ways that I could see these being used:

[*]As the archery element in centaur-only armies that are leap-frogging to take weak looking indie provinces, xor dodging the bulk of enemy forces while raiding enemy provinces.

[*]As the leading defensive edges of massed Saytr Sniper blocs in major early-mid game armies being sent against serious opposition. A block of archers that you can't hurt even if you flank the entirety of the enemies army due to a thin plate line of hulking superarchers just isn't what most indies/nations are going to be able to counter.
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maglag
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Post by maglag »

New nation, Mekona, aka "SSSPPPAAARRRTTTAAA Giant edition", now with +100% unhappy slaves!

Highlights at first sight:
-No sacred troops because they hate puny gods, but their giant troops go all the way to elite 21 armor 40 gold/50 resources dudes with formation fighter and magic spears.
-Forts cause unrest too.
-Their armored giant troops are recruitment limited, 4 at cap, 1 at other forts, there's a national global that help with the two points above.
-Slave troops with formation fighter don't look too shabby to fill in the ranks.
-Also disco throwing unarmored giants with two fist attacks.
-Most mages are old geezers, only the cap limited ones look like thug material.
-Huge research costs all around, but their cap has a +100 res site and their top mages give +25 each.
Last edited by maglag on Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

The changelog includes a bunch of other changes, but the ones that most interest me are:
• Attack rear now less reliable
• Fix for ranged target prediction

I haven't played since the update dropped, how noticeable are these?
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Post by Red_Rob »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:The changelog includes a bunch of other changes, but the ones that most interest me are:
• Attack rear now less reliable
• Fix for ranged target prediction

I haven't played since the update dropped, how noticeable are these?
There is much gnashing of teeth by Caelum players that Attack Rear is no longer an i-win button against indies and PD, so it seems it has gone back to the Dom4 standard.

Archer targetting I haven't really tested. One of the other big changes is that lance bonus damage is now limited by Strength, which means the exploit of stacking every +AP bless and getting 50+ damage lances no longer works.
maglag wrote:New nation, Mekona, aka "SSSPPPAAARRRTTTAAA Giant edition", now with +100% unhappy slaves!
Mekone looks like fun, but I question if they are actually good. The unrest thing seems like a serious negative, given even low unrest really hits your income and I've seen them gain 10-15 unrest in one turn. They have no nature mages for easy patrollers, and given they are killing off their population at the rate of 300 per year anyway in fort provinces I don't know they can afford to increase that with patrolling.
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Shatner
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Post by Shatner »

Slaves have half upkeep and they can recruit chaff for 8gp and 5 resources. An indie commander with a couple dozen patrolling isn't too pricey, in terms of upfront cost or upkeep. That said chaff carries a shield, spear, and javelin means it might actually accomplish something if it ever needs to enter a battle for real.

You're right that that's still a cost, but it's a surmountable one.

If you keep the E1F1?1H1 (Ephone or something similar) in your forts then there's unique events that get you swag and units as your giants routinely break the will of the slave class. Failing to have said commander present can get you events that cause more unrest.

It also bears pointing out that their giant troops and commanders as well as two of their slave units have Formation Fighter, and amazingly that means you can fit two size-4 giants in a square (or a size-4 giant and two size-2 humans). That helps with one of the biggest combat issues with giants: low troop density.

All that said, I have no idea how to actually play this nation, but then I never did 'figure out' how to play the giant nations well and this one sure as heck isn't simple.
Last edited by Shatner on Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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DrPraetor
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Post by DrPraetor »

I had a mod nation where Caelum and Abysia moved in together, although I made the mounted Abysian "immortals" actually immortal. Also I put them on bulls instead of gryphons.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/archive/ ... 32881.html
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Post by maglag »

Anyone checked out the throne of creation?

30% discount in conjuration, 20% discount in construction, +1 ritual level, 100 extra resources, in return for +3 turnoil in all your dominion.

I guess if you already went turnoil/luck then there's no drawback at all, but otherwise it's something you would want to wait some time before capturing, getting some research to (ab)use all those discounts in return for the -6% penalty to gold/resources and big hit in recruitment points.
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Post by Username17 »

maglag wrote:Anyone checked out the throne of creation?

30% discount in conjuration, 20% discount in construction, +1 ritual level, 100 extra resources, in return for +3 turnoil in all your dominion.

I guess if you already went turnoil/luck then there's no drawback at all, but otherwise it's something you would want to wait some time before capturing, getting some research to (ab)use all those discounts in return for the -6% penalty to gold/resources and big hit in recruitment points.
All of the Level 3 Thrones are kind of insane. The ones that hit you for scales penalties are often not worth claiming until quite late in the game. Even the Throne of Autumn and the Throne of Pestilence are only worth claiming when gold has pretty close to zero meaning. And even then it's a pretty shit deal most of the time. +1 Death really hurts and translates to a significant reduction in the number of forts and mages you can buy.

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DrPraetor
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Post by DrPraetor »

Is there interest in a denizens game?

If we've got less than 6 players (say), I might cross-post it to the steam forum.

The throne of pestilence can trigger a worldwide disease event, which I suppose might be exploitable for some positions, but is probably just annoying.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

I'm provisionally interested, depending on the parameters. Probably best to start a new thread for it, though.
Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob »

I can probably fit another game into my schedule.
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K
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Post by K »

I'd be interested.

Are there any good maps out yet? Dom5 maps are even uglier than Dom4.
Last edited by K on Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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GreatGreyShrike
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Post by GreatGreyShrike »

I'd be interested.

In terms of maps - Corbeau's map generator is decent at making maps for games.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

What does a good Bandar Log bless build look like these days? I've been recommended a Blue Dragon Quickness bless, but it seems to leave the casters in the cold. I really liked how the old reinvig/regen bless was good for white ones, gandharvas, and casters all.
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Post by K »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:What does a good Bandar Log bless build look like these days? I've been recommended a Blue Dragon Quickness bless, but it seems to leave the casters in the cold. I really liked how the old reinvig/regen bless was good for white ones, gandharvas, and casters all.

Ethereal is probably best Bless for anyone, but for Bandar Log it synergizes well with the fact that your Astral research for your regular mages will benefit your Astral 9 Pretender. Also, the fact that one of your major powers is cheap researchers works well with the required Magic 3.

I have successfully paired this with Rejuvenation because I also wanted a high Nature god for the Mother Oak, which you use to summon national mages. Ethereal summoned national mages and Ghandarvas are the tits, especially when they Rejuvenate.

A few points in Death for the excellent national summons, and maybe a few in Blood for Blood Stones and Reinvigoration battle casting, and you are good to go.
Last edited by K on Mon May 28, 2018 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

What on earth is your build for that? Etherealness is Astral 10, and none of Bandar Log's S2 pretenders has any Nature, Death, or Blood. I don't see how it can possibly add up.
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GreatGreyShrike
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Post by GreatGreyShrike »

I personally mostly play MP on games organized via a Dominions discord group. In that settings, the low-astral Magic Weapons bless is very commonly taken and it being so much a part of the meta makes ethereal rather a lot worse. I don't see ethereal as a recommended bless for most MP settings. That said, a lot of smaller individual groups have different metagames and ideas of how to play, and you can expect different things will apply depending on who you play with.

If I was doing a Ethereal bless for Bandar Log for whatever reason, I'd probably be tempted to go something like a nearly-totally-tanked scales fountain - Dom 6, Ethereal, Quickness, Turmoil 3, Sloth 3, Cold 1, Death 1, Misfortune 3, Magic 3. It's terrible scales but when your tigers and white ones are clawing people's faces off on a bless rush you can hopefully make up for it via owning other people's capitals. Sort of like a not-as-good Nazca.

I am a huge fan of scales even on nations where it's probably a bad idea and super weak, so I'd probably personally play a scale-based bandar log if it were me personally playing. But honestly Bandar Log probably deserves a strong bless, and taking Quickness somehow is probably your best bet. Blood Surge, Barkskin, and Fire and Shock Resistance are all particularly worth looking at too. I'd be tempted to not go barkskin because you can cast it naturally eventually, but I'm not sure that's enough reason - barkskin is really very good as a bless.

A rainbow bless might be affordable - something like an imprisoned Maharishi with F3W3A3E3S4D4N1B4 for Attack Skill, Minor Shock Resistance, Swiftness, Defence Skill, Strength of the Earth, Magic Weapons, Minor Magic Resistance, Arcane Command, Withering Weapons, Blood Surge. You can afford Dom 8 and +2 scales, or Dom 6 with +4 scales. You don't really need high productivity scales much and luck is really often tanked as well in multiplayer, so you could easily fit good magic and growth scales and maybe a bit more quite comfortably with a rainbow bless.
Last edited by GreatGreyShrike on Mon May 28, 2018 6:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by K »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:What on earth is your build for that? Etherealness is Astral 10, and none of Bandar Log's S2 pretenders has any Nature, Death, or Blood. I don't see how it can possibly add up.
The Maharishi can do Turmoil3/Production3/Cold3/Death1/Misfortune2/Magic3/Dom6 at Dormant and S10/D2/N5/B1. The pretender is not great for battle, but a Coral sword and an Amulet of Enlargement add a lot of survivability, as will an eventual Wish for Power. Early expansion is with elephants.

The Kamedhenu is the SC version where you don't do Death or Blood sorcery, and the goal is a beeline for Master Enslave.

The Ethereal Bless is all about economy. Bless nations aren't going to have a Magic Weapon Bless because they went for a big Bless, and regular nations who use it don't have the Blessed troop production to handle you fielding a full army. Most battles are going to feature a lot of your ethereal troops surviving and becoming very experienced, including such natural mini-SCs like your summonable mages. Having your national mages not getting taken out by stray arrows is also a big plus.

The Monolith is the Awake version for taking out lots of indies fast, but you need to go Death 3 for that.

Honestly, there are a lot of reasons to go with a small Bless and good scales and a sleeping pretender. Remember, you can take a lot of the small Blesses several times, so its not even expensive to make a great scales, +8 Str Bless build, or a +4 Att/+4 Def build, or a +9 HP/+4 Morale build.

The goal is to make a plan on what you are going to be doing tactically and do a Bless that supports that. I mean, if you wanted to try spell spam then good scales on an awake Great sage and Reinvig 3 or 4 is something I'd support, but that tactic closes off other tactics, notably your great summons. The per gem value of your Death and Blood summons is amazing, and fielding them forces your enemies to field priests even if you field a small number.
Last edited by K on Mon May 28, 2018 10:29 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Red_Rob
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Post by Red_Rob »

Dominions V is on 25% discount for the Steam Summer Sales until 5th July
Simplified Tome Armor.

Tome item system and expanded Wish Economy rules.

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Miniature Colossus
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Post by Miniature Colossus »

So Dom5 has been out for a year now and a lot of quirkiness has been patched. Have your opinions of it changed since the initial impressions?
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Post by Niles »

What Nations do people suggest to someone who just got the game and are looking for their first learning game?
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