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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Koumei wrote:
Oh right. I forgot I had adblock. Protip: use fucking adblock.


I have adblock. I still get ads on youtube. I don't know how many it blocks though but I get them semi-regularly.
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
The youtube channel is basically the entire thing. Despite calling itself a university, PragerU doesn't offer even the fake degrees that a degree mill scam would. It's the same kind of not-quite-fraud as a person who changes their first name to 'doctor.' AFAICT, all the organization does is produce those up-is-down misinformational videos while hoping gullible people will assume they have academic legitimacy. My favorite title is probably 'Fossil Fuels: The Greenest Energy.' That there is some full-Orwell commitment.


Honestly, the actual content of that video is pretty good, for the most part.

"Conditions in developing countries are pretty shitty. To make them less shitty, they need reliable, cheap, and easy power. Fossil fuels are currently the cheapest and easiest we have, and thus will enable developing countries to build the infrastructure that they need more readily than alternative energy sources will."

I mean, that's the trust of their argument, that fossil-fuel fueled water, sewage, and power infrastructure will save a lot of lives in developing countries. And that's inherently true. Using diesel burning construction vehicles to lay down desperate sewer and water pipes is objectively better emptying your bucket of poop into the street and then walking two miles to the river to collect water for the day.

They even mention that improperly ventilated indoor fires, which are still used for heating and cooking in some parts of the developing world, are more dangerous than burning fossil fuels in a power plant and using the electricity to cook and heat. Which is also true.

The problem is that they take this great argument and then combine it with global warming denial (even though other videos of theirs admit that global warming is happening). And also they seem to be implying that these facts about the developing world should somehow influence internal domestic policy of developed countries but don't explain how or why.


Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
Koumei wrote:
Oh right. I forgot I had adblock. Protip: use fucking adblock.


I have adblock. I still get ads on youtube. I don't know how many it blocks though but I get them semi-regularly.


If you're seeing any then it isn't blocking any. You probably need to update or upgrade or something.
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tussock
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Cooking food in Africa requires people just turn on their fucking electric ovens, because it's not 1850.

There's a few cities in Africa with fucked up sewage systems, like there's a few cities in the USA with fucked up sewage systems, like there's a few in NZ and everywhere else, as they get old and councils suck at maintenance. Obviously people in cities in Africa fucking well have motor vehicles and electricity supply because Africa is still not somehow lost in 1900. Fuck.

Yes, there's people in Africa that are super poor and that happens a lot more in a lot of countries than in does in Europe and the USA, but they can still ride little motorbikes and obviously have cell phones that they can charge off a small solar panel, because it's not 1950 either.

--

But more importantly, it's been cheaper to build and run solar than coal for almost ten years now, which is why coal is dying and solar is taking over. It's even cheaper now to store concentrated heat from the sun and run a steam turbine at night off it than run coal at night. Coal prices have collapsed and it's still cheaper to run solar because the sun costs zero dollars.

If you want to help Africa, the last fucking thing you'd do is build them a coal-fired power plant. You might help them fix up their sewage systems, if say Ebola threatened to reach Europe, which happened, and now they're mostly better, because it was much cheaper for Europe to stop Ebola than consider not doing so. You might forgive some of the exorbitant debts that hang over their governments and prevent them ... pretty much doing anything at all, because all the taxes just barely cover the interest and their central bank policies are set by foreign banks on threat of trade sanctions.

--

But yes, you could make an argument that from 1880 and right up to 2005 or so it was smart for anyone to build a lot of coal fired power plants, which everyone did, even China caught on eventually, then it got close for a while, and now it fucking isn't and they've cancelled almost all coal fired power construction everywhere in the world, sped up decommissioning, and the only limits on building solar they've found in China for instance is how easy it is to produce way more than anyone can use. So they have to wait for the economy to grow all the time, for production demand to rise, so they can build more solar power, because solar is massively plentiful and extremely cheap and coal is already long dead.

Yes, there's places in Africa where people cook on open fires indoors, because that's cheaper than the local electricity supply, and there's trailer parks in the US where people cook on open fires indoors, because the gas hob is cheaper than the electricity supply. It's still not fucking 1850.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
and the only limits on building solar they've found in China for instance is how easy it is to produce way more than anyone can use.

THAT is fucking retarded . .
Overproduction, as with anything else, can be sold for a profit. And it should.

And seeing how energy is needed everywhere in the world, they should never, ever stop running out of people to buy it.
They could cover the whole of china in solar power plants and we'd still find a way to need more power!
If only so that the rest of the world can also get rid of fossil fuel for power production.
Keep a few of the old powerplants around for emergencies and otherwise replace everything with chinese made solar power.
It is one thing they can not fuck up with shit quality after all.
THAT is how china could become the leading power of the world.
Why the fuck would they not want to do this?

Want to get stupid with it?
OH NOES! THE WORLD DOES NOT NEED MORE POWER ANYMORE!
Why not? Do you see all those deserts and other shit places around?
We can use power to produce water to irrigate them!
Horribly expensive right? Wrong, we have too much power, the only expensive thing is the one time cost of building shit, the running cost would be low as fuck because of the cheap power. And then you can turn the food and whatever else you do there into even more profit!
For Fucks Sake People! Why the fuck does nobody in politics and industry ever read anything scifi to get ideas for creating more demand??

The only and main problem i see with this approach of covering all of china in solar power plants is the fact that we'd need to build huge power storage capacities everywhere else for when it gets dark in china . .
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Have you considered the possibility that tussock might be wrong?
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Briefly.

And then i decided i wanted to rant and gave him the benefit of the doubt because it also benefited my need to rant by giving me a reason to rant.
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nockermensch
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:
Meanwhile, their video on the progressive tax code seems to be arguing that a flat tax would be most fair. Not a flat tax rate, a flat tax amount. Since everyone gets the same amount of benefit from government services, it's fair for everyone to pay the same amount of money. It's actually a great appeal to intuitive concepts of fairness just just happens to gloss over the actual realities of personal expenses. I mean, it's intuitively fair, at a preschool level, for everyone to just pay $10,000 a year in taxes no matter how much they make. So as long as you keep your audience thinking at a preschool level, and don't bring in any complications, it makes the government seem quite tyrannical for imposing progressive tax rates.

Experts To Examine The Mystery Of Why Haven't People Started To Violently Overthrow Their Leaders Yet

BERKELEY, CA—A panel of the World's leading behavioral psychologists, historians, economists and game theorists convened today at the Why Aren't We On Fire Yet summit, to tackle the enigma of why the people of the West still haven't violently overthrow their elites in bloodthirsty revolutions.

“Every other time in History when inequality and abuse by the elites got so bad as now” said the Yale Professor of Economic History Francesca Trivellato, “you could bet that there would be heads on pikes on a matter of weeks.”


This situation makes me want to write for The Onion
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Maj
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
Koumei wrote:
Oh right. I forgot I had adblock. Protip: use fucking adblock.


I have adblock. I still get ads on youtube. I don't know how many it blocks though but I get them semi-regularly.


Might I recommend a new ad-blocker? Some ad-blockers get paid by companies to let their ads through.
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

nockermensch wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:
Meanwhile, their video on the progressive tax code seems to be arguing that a flat tax would be most fair. Not a flat tax rate, a flat tax amount. Since everyone gets the same amount of benefit from government services, it's fair for everyone to pay the same amount of money. It's actually a great appeal to intuitive concepts of fairness just just happens to gloss over the actual realities of personal expenses. I mean, it's intuitively fair, at a preschool level, for everyone to just pay $10,000 a year in taxes no matter how much they make. So as long as you keep your audience thinking at a preschool level, and don't bring in any complications, it makes the government seem quite tyrannical for imposing progressive tax rates.

Experts To Examine The Mystery Of Why Haven't People Started To Violently Overthrow Their Leaders Yet

BERKELEY, CA—A panel of the World's leading behavioral psychologists, historians, economists and game theorists convened today at the Why Aren't We On Fire Yet summit, to tackle the enigma of why the people of the West still haven't violently overthrow their elites in bloodthirsty revolutions.

“Every other time in History when inequality and abuse by the elites got so bad as now” said the Yale Professor of Economic History Francesca Trivellato, “you could bet that there would be heads on pikes on a matter of weeks.”


This situation makes me want to write for The Onion


The PragerU tax video also assumes that everyone is being paid the same hourly wage and that differences in income reflect only differences in hours worked. Which is, honestly, a good argument for a national fixed wage. If you set the national wage at $25 an hour, and then set the tax amount assuming a 40 hour work week, with unemployment and disability insurance that pays the full $1000 a week, then it would almost be fair. And there wouldn't be any millionaires because it would be flat out illegal for individuals to make more than $25 an hour.


Are you sure that's an onion article? I think it could easily be a real thing.


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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:

Are you sure that's an onion article? I think it could easily be a real thing.

It's reminiscent of a real op ed from three years ago.
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nockermensch
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:
Are you sure that's an onion article? I think it could easily be a real thing.

That was me trying to ape The Onion's style. But as Robby's link shows, we truly live in post-farce times.
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maglag
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stahlseele wrote:
Why the fuck does nobody in politics and industry ever read anything scifi to get ideas for creating more demand??


Because Trump and whoever's doing Brexit don't read much of anything at all? And the millions upon millions of 1st world people who voted for them probably don't read much either.

On the other hand most modern popular sci-fi don't really bother with such details as where all those fancy future societies are actually running either. What was the last time you saw princess Leia worry about farming policies and making sure everybody has electricity and health services?
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's what we nerds and geeks . . or rather the neckbeards and grognards i guess . . are there for. We check things. We make sure they make sense.
WE WANT HARD SCIFI!
AND WE WANT IT NOW!
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stahlseele wrote:
That's what we nerds and geeks . . or rather the neckbeards and grognards i guess . . are there for. We check things. We make sure they make sense.
WE WANT HARD SCIFI!
AND WE WANT IT NOW!


You're using a machine made of dead dinosaurs, possibly nuclear powered depending where you live, to talk to people on other continents (and/or share pictures of cats). We've got hard sci-fi...just hard sci-fi from some time back before we took all this for granted.
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Hicks
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To be fair, it is more probably made of dead plants that died millions of years ago. #FernLife
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Reagan read Red Storm Rising, Clancy’s novel of a US-Soviet conventional war in Europe, to prepare for the Reykjavik summit with Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev (Cannon 2008, 252). Griffin (2017) attributes part of Reagan’s confidence in proposing a nuclear-zero arrangement at Reykjavik to Reagan’s having read Red Storm Rising. The book’s portrayal of a Third World War helped persuade Reagan that US conventional superiority rendered nuclear weapons not merely superfluous but dangerous and destabilizing. During a conversation with UK Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher in which Reagan deprecated the importance of nuclear deterrence in Europe, Reagan also recommended that Mrs. Thatcher read Red Storm Rising in preparation for an upcoming UK-Soviet summit because it provided “an excellent picture of the Soviet Union’s intentions and strategy” (Mohdin 2015).


Sadly, US politicians have been basing their policy decisions on fiction for a long time.

-Frank
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thaluikhain wrote:
Stahlseele wrote:
That's what we nerds and geeks . . or rather the neckbeards and grognards i guess . . are there for. We check things. We make sure they make sense.
WE WANT HARD SCIFI!
AND WE WANT IT NOW!


You're using a machine made of dead dinosaurs, possibly nuclear powered depending where you live, to talk to people on other continents (and/or share pictures of cats). We've got hard sci-fi...just hard sci-fi from some time back before we took all this for granted.

But that's Dieselpunk <.<
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hicks wrote:
To be fair, it is more probably made of dead plants that died millions of years ago. #FernLife


True, but dinosaurs sound cooler.
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thaluikhain wrote:
Stahlseele wrote:
That's what we nerds and geeks . . or rather the neckbeards and grognards i guess . . are there for. We check things. We make sure they make sense.
WE WANT HARD SCIFI!
AND WE WANT IT NOW!


You're using a machine made of dead dinosaurs, possibly nuclear powered depending where you live, to talk to people on other continents (and/or share pictures of cats). We've got hard sci-fi...just hard sci-fi from some time back before we took all this for granted.


That's not hard sci-fi. That's fantasy. It's all magic. Flying cars are hard sci-fi, but computers might as well be made by wizards.


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tussock
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stahlseele wrote:
Quote:
and the only limits on building solar they've found in China for instance is how easy it is to produce way more than anyone can use.

THAT is fucking retarded . .
Overproduction, as with anything else, can be sold for a profit. And it should.

This may surprise you, but excess production of electricity does not clear. You can drop the market rate to zero and not get people to use more of it past a certain point. What you actually do is cut back supply to keep prices at least up to the point of sustaining the associated infrastructure and maintenance cycles.

Such low prices drive future demand construction, but only over the years it takes to build things that use a lot of electricity and do so at a profit given the risk of rising prices. You can't just magically bootstrap a massive electricity demand, the outputs need consumers wealthy enough to buy the production and so on.

And the Chinese government did plan to build a whole lot of solar and then had to cut that back quite a bit (and also speed up coal decommissioning) because they had to turn too much of it off after a while. Their demand for electricity didn't rise as quickly as they'd hoped, particularly in the poorer states.

Spain has a similar problem with wind power, they can't export it fast enough at nights when the wind blows and it fills about 115% of the national demand. There's just no magic way to suddenly create a use for it, and they had to stop building wind turbines.

Quote:
The only and main problem i see with this approach of covering all of china in solar power plants is the fact that we'd need to build huge power storage capacities everywhere else for when it gets dark in china . .


The ones that make power as the sun shines, solar panels, are cheaper, mostly because China has been producing them on colossal scale for a long time now, and has plentiful in-place coal to cover the night demand.

The other type, where you store heat via reflectors onto a working fluid and then into a large heat sink, and run a steam turbine off it as needed (it's most efficient if you only bring your heat sink up to around 600-900C), that produces power as required 24 hours a day, they're roughly rated to have a storage function of about 72 hours of full production once they get up to peak temperatures. Those are more expensive, but not that much more, and still much cheaper than building new coal plants.
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

tussock wrote:
The other type, where you store heat via reflectors onto a working fluid and then into a large heat sink, and run a steam turbine off it as needed (it's most efficient if you only bring your heat sink up to around 600-900C), that produces power as required 24 hours a day, they're roughly rated to have a storage function of about 72 hours of full production once they get up to peak temperatures. Those are more expensive, but not that much more, and still much cheaper than building new coal plants.


You got a source for that? Cause while I know they were working on that sort of thing, IIRC they are a long way from being practical.
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Hadanelith
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Solar power towers are already a thing, that works, and produces pretty decently cheap power. I'd have to do way more research to tell you if they're more efficient than photovoltaics, but they are definitely a practical, functional power source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_power_tower
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Oh yeah, i know of at least 3 of them active in north america.
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tussock
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 15, 2018 2:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_Energy_Generating_Systems
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevada_Solar_One

and in general

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concentrated_solar_power

The trough tech was originally developed in the 1930s and couple big ones were installed for powering North African cities at the time, until the rush of cheap oil after WW II put them out of business. They're way older tech than photovoltaic cells, latest ideas to improve them seem to be on replacing the potentially volatile working fluids with molten salt, which allows them to run a hotter heat sink and thus more efficient turbines without the self-combustion issues.

But then, electric cars were winning all the big international rallies in the 1880s, just turns out gasoline has fantastic energy density because half the reaction weight and your working fluid and your cooling system is the atmosphere you're driving through.

--

In terms of why any of this matters ... HOLY SHIT.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/07/climate-change-earth-too-hot-for-humans.html

Yeah, sorry kids, we just didn't want to risk losing a quarter percent growth over the last decade so we could not do that instead of doing that. Seemed like a terrible idea at the time, but had a lot of money behind it, so, yeah, good luck.
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