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Red_Rob
Prince


Joined: 17 Jul 2009
Posts: 2565

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
As for Tough Skin vs Fortitude, Tough Skin seems a lot better to me. And not just because it saves you 48 design points. Let's consider the effects on a Fomorian Giant:

It has 6 protection (all natural) on the face, and 16 protection (mixed) on the body. So Tough Skin saves you from 5 damage to the face, or 3 damage to the body. Fortitude saves you from half the damage you take after protection. So it's better than Tough Skin if you get hit for 18+ damage to the face or 24+ damage to the body. And it's worse than Tough Skin if you take 14 or less damage to the face or 20 or less damage to the body. Since most attacks are less than 20 damage, Tough Skin is usually pulling even or ahead just in absolute terms. Also it works against Fire and Cold damage while Fortitude does not.

-Frank


When you factor in the 20% protection reduction for Piercing attacks, and the 20% damage bonus for Slashing attacks after armor, I get the feeling Fortitude comes out ahead more often than not. Also I'd highlight that when you have regeneration you aren't generally going to die from being nickel-and-dimed by 1 or 2 damage hits anyway, it's the spike damage and high damage attacks that will pose the greatest risk. Those are precisely the things Fortitude helps against, so I'd say it is worth the extra investment in most cases.
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FrankTrollman
Serious Badass


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 27230

PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Red Rob wrote:
the 20% damage bonus for Slashing attacks after armor


That doesn't change the point of payoff at all. If you get a 16 point sword blow to the head:
  • With Tough Skin you have 11 protection, so there's 5 damage past your protection and you lose 6 hit points.
  • With Fortitude you halve the post-protection damage, but you only have 6 protection so there's 10 points past your protection, which is halved to 5 and you still lose 6 hit points.


The blunt face multiplier also doesn't change the payoff point at all. Again, the amount of damage is multiplied after protection, so the point where Fortitude and Tough Skin are the same is the same either way.

As for being nickle and dimed to death, it's not that likely with archery (although it's better to take no damage at all from more archery hits from the standpoint of picking up afflictions). But in melee your giants are often personally being pitted against two or three squares worth of bullshit human infantry. So turns where you get attacked by 9 spears or hatchets is very much a thing (and your defense is pretty much zero against the later attacks), and that will do 2-3 points of damage more often than you can heal it by a considerable margin.

-Frank
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Shatner
Knight-Baron


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 873

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm still experimenting with 'em but LA Pangaea's Centuride Crossbows is pretty interesting.

30gp for an archer is, historically, a bad idea. However, they have a precision of 15 for their crossbows, so they actually hit stuff, the fact that they're stronger translates into more damage on the accurate armor-piercing shot, they carry a shield, have body protection of 19, two melee attacks (short sword, hoof), a defense of 16, recuperation, high map and combat speed, and solid stats across the board (including morale).

The thing is you can have a line of centuride crossbows up front and they'll shoot at whatever you tell 'em to shoot and then do a really solid job holding the line against whatever closes to melee. Most indies, cavalry included, die/break and then your centurides go right back to shooting. With heavy armor, high precision, 18hp, and a shield, they win all archery contests. It's a really interesting and extremely versatile unit.

The only real problem is that they refuse to wear a hat. What few deaths they do suffer at the hands of indies are all someone getting a lucky head shot and dropping 'em. Being size-3, human infantry seem to have poorer odds of hitting there than average, but if you're fighting giants, I expect head shots to be more common.

As an aside, site searching with LA Pangaea is frustrating. Not because they have poor diversity but because their sole source of air, water, and astral is a bookworm you want to never leave the lab except when they show up in force to Voltron together with communions to kill armies... before going back to the lab. Needing to have 4 mages cover all of your paths searching irks me... but maybe that's because I've been spoiled playing EA and MA T'ien Ch'i.
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maglag
Duke


Joined: 02 Apr 2015
Posts: 1139

PostPosted: Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shatner wrote:
Being size-3, human infantry seem to have poorer odds of hitting there than average, but if you're fighting giants, I expect head shots to be more common.


That is correct, the chances of hitting a body part depends on the size difference among other things. Weapon length can make up for size difference. Ulm pikemen in particular can gouge out giant's eyes and stab them in the chest while ulm axemen are mostly left clipping giant toenails.
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Judging__Eagle
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 4625
Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada

PostPosted: Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shatner wrote:
I'm still experimenting with 'em but LA Pangaea's Centuride Crossbows is pretty interesting.


There's two ways that I could see these being used:

  • As the archery element in centaur-only armies that are leap-frogging to take weak looking indie provinces, xor dodging the bulk of enemy forces while raiding enemy provinces.

  • As the leading defensive edges of massed Saytr Sniper blocs in major early-mid game armies being sent against serious opposition. A block of archers that you can't hurt even if you flank the entirety of the enemies army due to a thin plate line of hulking superarchers just isn't what most indies/nations are going to be able to counter.
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