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Ancient History
Invincible Overlord


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Meanwhile... https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/the-secret-correspondence-between-donald-trump-jr-and-wikileaks/545738/
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erik
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In any other world those emails would be damning as fuck. Pity that nothing means anything anymore.
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Ancient History
Invincible Overlord


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 2:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

https://first.thepoliticalvoice.com/healthcare/trump-abruptly-kills-dogs-for-wounded-warriors-program-leaving-vets-high-and-dry-on-veterans-day/
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Pixels
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ancient History wrote:
trump-abruptly-kills-dogs
Well, I certainly misread that URL at first glance.

Also, relevant Snopes.
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Ancient History
Invincible Overlord


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dammit, I have to source things better.
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Dogbert
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

hyzmarca wrote:
And, really, protest votes are among the things that got us Trump in the first place.


Among the things... things including, but not limited to:

A cadidate that used to call impoverished Afro-American children "super predators," bolstered and weaponized the authoritarian left, and threatened to sell her country to the TPP, thus dooming the world to live in an even shittier version of Shadowrun.

A DNC that openly said "we don't owe the people fair elections," and blatantly forced the aforementioned candidate in by saying to the people's faces "Yes! We screwed Sanders, what are you gonna do about it? Vote for Trump?"

A complacent regime that allowed the little people to get extra screwed (hint: The thing in Flynt happened on Obama's watch, and don't even get me started on Detroit), because they assumed "American exceptionalism" would allow them to settle as The Lesser Evil.

Finding out how fed up the people were and how far they'd be willing to go to prove a point sure was a rude awakening. If your country (and the world) ever recovers from this, hopefully the future people in charge will realize that The Lesser Evil is no longer enough.
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EightWave
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Don't forget also female. I'm pretty sure that the exact same candidate, except male, would have won.

Last edited by EightWave on Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Clinton lost by a handful of small margins in key states. There are a lot of small changes that likely would've landed her in the White House.
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MGuy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Considering how many people voted for her explicitly because she was female and the number of other more qualified people who ran and lost against Trump in the Rep primary(which I'd like to point outv didn't want him to be their candidate) I'm not so sure the male version of Hillary would have done Mich better.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dogbert, could you refrain from saying incredibly stupid shit? Please?

If you think the "Superpredators" speech is disqualifying, you are unqualified to talk about American politics. Full fucking stop. It was a bad policy, but it was a policy that African Americans were asking for at the time. It comes from a period when the murder rate was much higher and the crack epidemic was destroying many black communities. The result was bad and disproportionately harmful to minority populations, but having been in favor of it at the time isn't indicative of having been anti-black at the time.

The DNC did not do anything that undermined the democratic process. Bernie lost because he got less votes. Hillary got three million more votes. She didn't get forced on anyone. We voted for her and she got more votes. She got more votes in the general election too, we just don't live in a democracy and Trump got forced on us.

-Frank
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MGuy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's as if politics change over time and things that were ok to say at one point in time in retrospect make you look bad now. How curious.
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Dogbert
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Dogbert, could you refrain from saying incredibly stupid shit? Please?


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Is having no integrity at all and changing your discourse depending on what your target demo wants to hear "the way" of American politics?

You don't get to do the "super predators" shit and then come up with "stronger together" and weaponizing the authoritarian left. You just don't.

And if you really let yourself be brainwashed into thinking she's some "progressive saint"... then all I can say is that you deserve your current president.

P.S: Don't talk to me about "what African Americans want," don't be that "my best friends are black" guy.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 3:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Hillary got three quarters of the African american vote in the Democratic Party primary. She is what black people wanted. Black people did not want Bernie, they wanted Hillary. We know this because they voted for her. By huge margins.

Any claim that Hillary did this or that at some point in the past and therefore was anti-black has to come face to face with the actual reality that actual black people in the actual world as a group do not agree with you. People trotted out the various Blacks For Bernie or Blacks For Trump guys because they were extremely unusual. She got three votes for every one vote for her opponent from that demographic.

Now I would say that a big part of why she got a super duper majority of black votes in the primary and in the general is that she had a history going back decades of having dialogs with black leaders from all over the country and advancing agendas that they asked her to back. I'm of course a white guy, so you are within your rights to accuse me of whitesplaining, but you do not get to have alternate facts where black people did not line up behind Hillary by enormous margins. If you wanna play the "I know black people" card, you get to tell me some other reason that black people wanted Clinton and not Sanders. You do not get to tell me that actually black people wanted to get rid of Hillary, because they voted for her by larger margins than Barrack Obama got in 2008.

-Frank
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MGuy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yea those people who claim blacks wanted to get rid of Hillary are totally wrong. I hope that they show up at some point so they can be corrected.
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Omegonthesane
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

MGuy wrote:
Yea those people who claim blacks wanted to get rid of Hillary are totally wrong. I hope that they show up at some point so they can be corrected.

Dogbert wrote:
A cadidate that used to call impoverished Afro-American children "super predators,"

(scroll up this page for the original context in which Dogbert is portraying Clinton as the reason Orange Hitler won)

You can see why someone might extrapolate from "Clinton said this racist thing and it's in a list of reasons why 45 won" to "Black people didn't want Clinton" as an underlying position.
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And if there are any weeds that grow better in barren soil than laziness and ignorance, I don't know what they are (and don't care enough to find out).
Kaelik wrote:
Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.
FrankTrollman wrote:
As far as death and human misery goes, Tobacco is basically World War II grinding on forever with no real sign of stopping in our life times. Death camps and nuclear bombs and stuff are certainly dramatic, but public health crises are always and forever bigger than wars on the global scale.


Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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MGuy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So your evidence that someone said something they didn't say is to post part of what they said and then admit that they didn't say it. Cool
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Omegonthesane
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Jumping to conclusions quickly today aren't we. That or letting slip that you heard the dog whistle and are consciously denying it.
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FrankTrollman wrote:
And if there are any weeds that grow better in barren soil than laziness and ignorance, I don't know what they are (and don't care enough to find out).
Kaelik wrote:
Because powerful men get away with terrible shit, and even the public domain ones get ignored, and then, when the floodgates open, it turns out there was a goddam flood behind it.
FrankTrollman wrote:
As far as death and human misery goes, Tobacco is basically World War II grinding on forever with no real sign of stopping in our life times. Death camps and nuclear bombs and stuff are certainly dramatic, but public health crises are always and forever bigger than wars on the global scale.


Zak S, Zak Smith, Dndwithpornstars, Zak Sabbath. He is a terrible person and a hack at writing and art. His cultural contributions are less than Justin Bieber's, and he's a shitmuffin. Go go gadget Googlebomb!
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MGuy
Prince


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Projecting much? Certainly a Dog whistle was used by somebody indeed but you could say that Clinton was wrong about a number of catastrophically bad things like gay marriage, the war, nsa powers, etc etc. Just because he mentioned one bad dog whistle doesn't mean that all the blacks would then not vote for her when faced with orange Hitler.
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phlapjackage
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dogbert wrote:
Is having no integrity at all and changing your discourse depending on what your target demo wants to hear "the way" of American politics?
Yes...yes it is Sad
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

There isn't a single part of Dogbert's rant that isn't stupid.

Dogbert wrote:
A cadidate that used to call impoverished Afro-American children "super predators,"

Hillary Clinton wrote:
Just as in a previous generation we had an organized effort against the mob. We need to take these people on. They are often connected to big drug cartels, they are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called superpredators no conscience, no empathy. We can talk about why they ended up that way, but first, we have to bring them to heel.

Is she calling poor black people superpredators? No. She is explicitly referring to the members of criminal cartels. Is it inappropriate to subtly suggest members of criminal cartels cannot be reformed? Yes, probably. Some of them very much can be, and we should try, because tough on crime bullshit doesn't really work, and the weight of its failure falls mostly on minorities. But that is a far cry from "black kids are superpredators," which is what Republicans (and you!) are pretending she said. And we do use tougher laws to tackle organized crime because we have to. Criminal organizations are deliberately structured to pass responsibility downwards so important people are never actually guilty of anything. You'll recall Al Capone ordered the murder of a shit ton of people and only ever went to jail for fucking tax evasion.

Dogbert wrote:
bolstered and weaponized the authoritarian left

Oh look, a talking point you will only ever see on Breitbart. I guess Antifa slept in and missed that civil war they were supposed to start a week ago. Oh, those lazy leftists, am I right?

Fuck off. Just fuck off.

Dogbert wrote:
A DNC that openly said "we don't owe the people fair elections," and blatantly forced the aforementioned candidate in by saying to the people's faces "Yes! We screwed Sanders, what are you gonna do about it? Vote for Trump?"

Not a single fucking one of the conspiracy theories about shady behind-the-scenes manipulation has proven true (other than that one time a Sanders supporter released the info of Clinton delegates, which is considered inappropriate because it opens them up to intimidation and harassment over their role in the process, which ultimately didn't matter and was of no consequence but is literally the only confirmed procedural scandal anyone has ever pointed out to me that wasn't bullshit). Of the very obvious manipulation (caucuses vs closed party voting), most reasonable estimates have Sanders coming out ahead because caucuses are super fucking not okay. You'll note that superdelegates, while bullshit, did not flip the result - Clinton won the popular vote and the superdelegates.

Dogbert wrote:
A complacent regime that allowed the little people to get extra screwed (hint: The thing in Flynt happened on Obama's watch, and don't even get me started on Detroit)

The EPA does not have a "go out and fix the water system" division. That is literally not a thing they have. The EPA sets standards, and individual states are left to both implement those standards and then test that their implementation is adequate. It is a system built on good faith cooperation between the federal government and state governments. The Michigan state government deliberately did not take the steps necessary to meet the standards set by the EPA and deliberately manipulated the results of their tests to make it look like they were. That is almost fucking unheard of, and there is no real precedent for tackling that situation successfully. The EPA sent them a bunch of letters saying, "hey, stop doing it wrong," and the Michigan government kept telling them "no."

Guess fucking what? Conflicts within our government are fucking slow. They legitimately take months and years to pan out. If Michigan hadn't been determined to poison a bunch of black people, this never would have happened. But when a state decides it wants to poison a bunch of black people, the EPA is literally fucking powerless to stop it except by sending them angry letters and eventually escalating to a lawsuit. And here is the sad fucking truth about the state of our courts - our regulatory agencies are scared to death of going to court, because the courts are conservative as fuck and there is always the chance they will rule that poisoning a bunch of black people is constitutional. Our country is fucked, and it is fucked because Republicans like Snyder are traitorous pieces of shit who don't actually fucking care if they kill U.S. citizens, and because judges like Scalia will occasionally vote to let him just to "put the dirty liberals in their place".

Our regulatory agencies work out voluntary settlements that amount to a slap on the wrist because they understand there's a good chance they'll lose if they go to court, and then the regulation is fucking gone. Corporations don't even have to pretend to obey it - it's just fucking erased from the books. That's fucking awful, and it's about to get worse because Trump is filling a lot of vacancies and the courts are going to be more conservative in 2020 than they were in 2008 by fucking miles.







At the end of the day, you do not know a single fucking thing about the realities of American politics and you have somehow managed to get all your talking points straight off the front page of Breitbart and co. I'm sorry, but you tried politics and you failed - you caught right-wing conspiracy syphilis and now your mind is fucking mush. Throw it all out and start over.
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EightWave
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

phlapjackage wrote:
Dogbert wrote:
Is having no integrity at all and changing your discourse depending on what your target demo wants to hear "the way" of American politics?
Yes...yes it is Sad
Taking a stand against the winds of popular opinion is a good way to avoid re-election. The political system is naturally selective against people who publicly state unpopular views.
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MGuy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

As interesting as it is to retread over Clinton's past mistakes and how bad our electoral process and state governments are, I think that we should start looking toward the future of the party. All the talk seems to be about the DNC and Hillary once again ever since Donna oddly decided to flip on the party for reasons I still don't understand and I don't think people are paying 'enough' attention to the individual local victories that have been occurring despite the infighting.

Currently, I am finding it extremely weird that Republicans are having a problem distancing themselves from a pedophile who's predatory nature has apparently been an open secret in-state. Ignoring the odd allegation is one thing but this guy was banned from places for creeping on young girls and the voters and talking heads seem to be bending over backwards to OK that sort of thing yet you have Hannity losing sponsors in an effort to sort of defend it. There are a lot of other things to hate about Moore but I really thought pedophilia was the point where even the right wing drew the line. So, in case he actually loses his bid on it what would the new senate seat mean over all for the Dems?
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dogbert wrote:
hyzmarca wrote:
And, really, protest votes are among the things that got us Trump in the first place.


Among the things... things including, but not limited to:

A cadidate that used to call impoverished Afro-American children "super predators," bolstered and weaponized the authoritarian left, and threatened to sell her country to the TPP, thus dooming the world to live in an even shittier version of Shadowrun.

A DNC that openly said "we don't owe the people fair elections," and blatantly forced the aforementioned candidate in by saying to the people's faces "Yes! We screwed Sanders, what are you gonna do about it? Vote for Trump?"

A complacent regime that allowed the little people to get extra screwed (hint: The thing in Flynt happened on Obama's watch, and don't even get me started on Detroit), because they assumed "American exceptionalism" would allow them to settle as The Lesser Evil.

Finding out how fed up the people were and how far they'd be willing to go to prove a point sure was a rude awakening. If your country (and the world) ever recovers from this, hopefully the future people in charge will realize that The Lesser Evil is no longer enough.


Are you the dumbest human being alive? Just checking, because this post is consistent with that.

"Why didn't OBAMA act as supreme dictator and do things without any congressional votes to fix Flynt!!!!!!"

"I mean why didn't he just take dictatorial control over the state of Michigan and fix all the problems by using his dictator powers to bypass the Michigan state government!"

"FUCKING OBAMA! WHY DID HE OBEY THE RULE OF LAW!!"

Also the DNC thing also isn't true. Also I'm going to love when going back through history it turns out that Dogbert is super racist right winger not an actual left winger.
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Koumei
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well he's dog(bert) whistling about "weaponising the authoritarian Left", so I assume if you ask him to name terrorist organisations or internal threats to America, his first answer will be some variation of "the militant Left" or "Antifa". As opposed to the various racist groups wandering around with guns and confederate flags and swastikas and actually killing people.

Anyway, the Roy Moore thing really is super weird. Beyond "Republicans are terrible people" weird, beyond "apparently everyone you've ever heard of is a sex offender" weird. There's a politician (and judge? Former judge?) who is just sort of allowed to hold power despite his predatory nature being known well enough that he's banned from certain places you'd expect to find teenagers. He's digging up old letters of support and doctoring the dates to make it look like church officials still support him (honestly I'm surprised he kept an old letter of support, I didn't think he was interested in anything that old). And the guys on the Right are still determined to stand by him, in some cases going "Well before this I was on the fence but now (that I know he's a paedophile) I'm going all-in!"

I like how the intellectual powerhouses who watch Sean Hannity are smashing their own coffee makers though, TO TRIGGER THE LEFT.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Roy Moore was the Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court twice. I don't mean he was Chief Justice for 2 terms. I mean that he was

I don't mean he won two terms or something sane like that. I mean he was elected Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Alabama, then he was removed by the SCOTUS because he declared that Alabama SC is higher than the US SC, and therefore he could just ignore their decisions.

After being removed before serving even a single full term, he instead went on to... well actually just run for Supreme Court Justice of Alabama again, and win another election. Then, because he again declared that Alabama Supreme Court is greater than the US SC, he was this time suspended, and told he was on indefinite suspension until he agreed to implement the required US SC ruling he claimed to be above.

In response, he resigned and ran for Senate. Betting that Alabama would vote him in again, because they love racist homophobes with no respect for the US constitution who just want to hurt black people and women and gay people and poor people.

He was right, and he won the primary against the sitting temporary senator Luther Strange, who, though a racist who hates women, black people, gays and poor people, didn't hate them enough for Alabama.

Normally, you would have just penciled in the republican winner as the guy who definitely gets to win the general, because Alabama. All the more so that this fucker has been twice elected Chief Justice, Alabama clearly loves voting for him.

But then it came out that he really likes dating and/or fucking 14 year old girls but always with their mother's permission.

So now it's possible that he won't win the election for Senate, but he probably still will.

So yes, Roy Moore is a former judge twice removed from office for misconduct, and no one should ever call him Judge, but all republicans do, for example when asking Jeff Sessions about the election to waste time while avoiding asking him about Russia.

Because republicans love to show respect to pedophiles.
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