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virgil
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Post by virgil »

Are there any problems with building a howdah on a roc?
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Post by deaddmwalking »

No. It's going to count toward toatal weight carried and encumbrance, but if it weighs less than an elephant it shouldn't matter.
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virgil
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Post by virgil »

Where's official information on darkwood? The stuff is, per pound, four times as valuable as silver; but I don't recall ever seeing mention of actual trees or forests of darkwood.
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Pixels
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Post by Pixels »

It might be setting specific. FR and Eberron both have trees according to some cursory Googling, but there's no reason it couldn't be magically or alchemically treated wood.
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Post by Voss »

It was just sort of handwvaved in. 3.5 wanted a wooden special material, but all the settings predate it's addition, so none mention it. Fun little consequence of kitchen sinking, but not doing new settings to match.

Eberron isn't really enough of an exception, since a lot of it was done prior to the contest, and it's pretty notorious for ignoring aspect of D&D, like high levels. And instead focusing on the magic tech nonsense without really delving into the details.
Last edited by Voss on Thu Oct 12, 2017 8:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Antariuk »

Eberron features a number of weird or magical types of wood, don't know which supplement they might be listed in, but there is some ranting about soarwood (?) being a vital component of the elemental airships (and at least two conflicting descriptions of its properties), and the the controlled export of rare woods is the between the continent of the elves and the rest of the world is a thing. So Eberron is all about magical wood.
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Post by Voss »

Yeah, but in reference to Virgil's question, there isn't any indication if darkwood is 'once in a decade an oak sprouts under a new moon and is therefor transformed in a darkwood tree,' or if the fucking elves have a 100 acre plot where they plant 10 acres of the things every year for easy harvesting on a decade cycle. Multiply by 10 if you feel like it.

It's just 'sometimes shields or ships are made out of magical wood,' because elves and/or Druids.
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Post by Niles »

virgil wrote:Are there any problems with building a howdah on a roc?
It can easily go either way.

If you want rocs with howdahs, it's not gonna break any reasonable suspension of disbelief that can stand up to rocs flying around the setting in the first place.

If you don't want people strapping howdahs on rocs, there are any number of plausible reasons aerodynamic, behavioral or biomechanical to give to prevent their use.
Last edited by Niles on Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Prak »

At what level is petrification a level appropriate ability? Is temporary petrification allowable at a lower level than permanent petrification?

Edit: specifically as a gaze attack for a playable gorgon.
Last edited by Prak on Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Prak wrote:At what level is petrification a level appropriate ability? Is temporary petrification allowable at a lower level than permanent petrification?
The difference between temporary and permanent petrification is mostly moot. The big deal is that permanently petrified people aren't dead and can't be raised, which very rarely comes up for NPCs. Temporary petrification is a lot like 3.0 hold person - the target is removed from the combat and will be executed if their side loses the fight.

Gaze attacks are rough, as they are AOE effects that don't require an action. Tome rules suggest you can play a Medusa (mostly) as-is as an 8th-level character, and I'd be real leery of including anything at all similar any lower.
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Post by Prak »

I was kind of thinking of making a scaled ability that starts as, like, Sicken, and builds up to a single target petrification, and then the standard cone gaze attack.

The challenge is then figuring level breaks

I'm kind of thinking sickened (Cha mod rnds) from first level, @w hold person at 5th, and full petrifying gaze at 8th.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

If I were doing that, I'd use the Tome method to figure out what the Medusa would look like as an 8th-level character and then backwards-engineer it into a Savage Species style class progression.

And now I am doing it.
Nascent Medusa
Image
When the bare eyes were before me
And the hissing hair,
Held up at a window, seen through a door.
The stiff bald eyes, the serpents on the forehead
Formed in the air.


The monster manual is noticeably silent on the origin of Medusas. I like to think they're naturally-reproducing humanoid monotremes. Still, whether hatched or cursed or what have you, they come into the fullness of their powers over a period of time. This is a race/class combo, one can't be taken without the other.

Racial Details
• Medium Size
• Base land speed 30 feet
• Monstrous Humanoid type
• Darkvision 60 feet
• +2 Str, +2 Con
• Natural Armor: Medusa's scaly skin gives them a +3 natural armor bonus to AC.
• Natural Weapon: A Medusa's snaky hair is a natural weapon (technically a sting) that deals 1d4 damage. This attack is venomous and delivers an injury poison (1d6 Str/2d6 Str) with a save DC based on the Medusa's Con.
• Automatic Languages: Common

Starting Age: As Fighter.
Starting Equipment: 6d4x10 gp
Alignment: Any.

Hit Die: d6
Base Attack Bonus: Good
Good Saving Throws: Reflex, Will.
Skill Points: 4 + Intelligence modifier (x4 at level 1)
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Disguise, Hide, Intimidate, Move Silently, Profession, Spot, Swim.
LevelSpecial
1Active Gaze (Daze), Uncanny Resemblance.
2Passive Gaze (Slow)
3Active Gaze (Paralyzed)
4Passive Gaze (Daze)
5Active Gaze (Unconscious)
6Passive Gaze (Paralyzed)
7Active Gaze (Petrifying)
8Passive Gaze (Petrifying)

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A Medusa is proficient with Simple Weapons and Shortbows.
Active Gaze (Su): A Medusa has a 30-foot gaze attack, but at 1st level only the active use has any effect, causing the victim to be dazed for 1 round. The Medusa's gaze is resisted with a Fortitude save against a DC based on the Medusa's Charisma. At 3rd level, the victim is paralyzed for 1 round/level. At 5th level the victim is paralyzed for 1 round/level but also rendered unconscious. At 7th level, the victim is permanently petrified.
Uncanny Resemblance (Ex): At distances greater than 30 feet, a Medusa is indistinguishable from a normal human, no matter how much official art depicts them as obviously scaly, fanged, green, etc. So long as their face is concealed, they are indistinguishable from a human at closer distances.
Passive Gaze (Su): At 2nd level, the Medusa's gaze attack works passively, rendering its victims slowed for 1 round. At 4th level, they are dazed for 1 round. At 6th level they are paralyzed for 1 round/level. At 8th level, they are permanently petrified.
Critiques welcome.
Last edited by angelfromanotherpin on Wed Oct 18, 2017 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Voss »

That's pretty much win all the time at 3rd, as paralyze as an action for multiple rounds leads to permanent stun juggling.

That they're also randomly good at face punching and can murder casters with poison are just random bonuses for no reason.

Not sure what paralyzed but also unconscious even does, mechanically.
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Post by Prak »

Honestly, I'd really prefer to just be able to do gorgon as a basic race, so that you can be a gorgon wizard, or assassin, or, say, pirate.
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Voss wrote:That's pretty much win all the time at 3rd, as paralyze as an action for multiple rounds leads to permanent stun juggling.
I don't see the issue. Combats in 3e are very short, it's going to be equivalent to a few castings of Hold Person, except with much shorter range and a built-in way for the enemy to reduce/negate its effectiveness, and those castings can't be swapped out for the much larger Cleric toolbox.
That they're also randomly good at face punching and can murder casters with poison are just random bonuses for no reason.
So your concern is that a class that's fragile like a rogue can kill casters with melee attacks? How must you feel about rogues?
Not sure what paralyzed but also unconscious even does, mechanically.
Ordinarily, a paralyzed person can still use SLAs or take other purely mental actions; this prevents that, and also when they stop being paralyzed they fall over because they still aren't awake.
Prak wrote:Honestly, I'd really prefer to just be able to do gorgon as a basic race, so that you can be a gorgon wizard, or assassin, or, say, pirate.
I think that's unworkable as a concept. Their signature ability really is several class levels worth by itself. You'd have to abandon it and focus on the aesthetic of being a scaly person with snake hair, which I imagine would be very unsatisfying. Sure, you could include 'can/must take the Stoning Gaze feat at level 9,' but you're still spending a huge chunk of your adventuring career with a buzzkill asterisk on your Medusa identity.
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Post by Prak »

What I'm thinking is something like this-

Ravnican Gorgon
  • Ability Scores- +2 Cha
  • Medium Monstrous Humanoid
  • 30 foot movement
  • +1 natural armor
  • Gorgon's Gaze: The gaze of a gorgon has the ability to incapacitate foes. A first level gorgon has a 30' gaze attack which inflicts the sickened condition. Creatures that fail their save are sickened for a number of rounds equal to the gorgon's charisma modifier.
    At fifth level, the gorgon's gaze gains the ability to paralyze foes as the spell Hold Monster. This affect can only be used as an active gaze attack action.
    At eight level, the gorgon's gaze reaches its full strength, a 30' gaze attack that inflicts the petrification condition.
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FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by JonSetanta »

Prak wrote:What I'm thinking is something like this-

Ravnican Gorgon
  • Ability Scores- +2 Cha
  • Medium Monstrous Humanoid
  • 30 foot movement
  • +1 natural armor
  • Gorgon's Gaze: The gaze of a gorgon has the ability to incapacitate foes. A first level gorgon has a 30' gaze attack which inflicts the sickened condition. Creatures that fail their save are sickened for a number of rounds equal to the gorgon's charisma modifier.
    At fifth level, the gorgon's gaze gains the ability to paralyze foes as the spell Hold Monster. This affect can only be used as an active gaze attack action.
    At eight level, the gorgon's gaze reaches its full strength, a 30' gaze attack that inflicts the petrification condition.
I like it, but at 8th level that at-will ability is powerful. Too good. Maybe delay it a bit?
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Post by Voss »

So your concern is that a class that's fragile like a rogue can kill casters with melee attacks? How must you feel about rogues?
That... isn't at all my issue.

Aside from not feeling like a class at all, it runs around paralyzing people, but also is built as a face puncher, not a rogue. Big AC bonus, strength and con bonuses. But sometimes instead of trying to stunlock, or get their dandruff to poison people, it hauls off with a morningstar or spear for no apparent reason. (Which is strictly inferior to taking their real combat actions, except when the gaze is a crappy daze effect)
I don't see the issue.
I can tell. It's an at-will save or lose (but can reach a point where it can affect entire fights), and not at all like hold person, as you can use it over and over again, it affects a lot more target types, and there isn't a save to end early.

Uncanny resemblance means averting or blind folding isn't an issue until after the fact (as no one would have a reason to do so). A simple veil is a perfect disguise, unless they have seen the medusa before and seen them in action, because reasons. (And arguably given the way it's written, that is being generous, as they could be buck naked with snakes out, but having their face covered would mean they are still perfectly indistinguishable from normal humans).

Combat starts:
Medusa takes off veil.
Did we win yet?
Yay, fun!
Last edited by Voss on Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Prak
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Post by Prak »

JonSetanta wrote:
Prak wrote:What I'm thinking is something like this-

Ravnican Gorgon
  • Ability Scores- +2 Cha
  • Medium Monstrous Humanoid
  • 30 foot movement
  • +1 natural armor
  • Gorgon's Gaze: The gaze of a gorgon has the ability to incapacitate foes. A first level gorgon has a 30' gaze attack which inflicts the sickened condition. Creatures that fail their save are sickened for a number of rounds equal to the gorgon's charisma modifier.
    At fifth level, the gorgon's gaze gains the ability to paralyze foes as the spell Hold Monster. This affect can only be used as an active gaze attack action.
    At eight level, the gorgon's gaze reaches its full strength, a 30' gaze attack that inflicts the petrification condition.
I like it, but at 8th level that at-will ability is powerful. Too good. Maybe delay it a bit?
I pegged the petrification ability to when an MM medusa would be playable by tome rules.

Hmm... there are two ways that this could be handled that don't involve bumping petrification back past the veil of "I've never gotten to play a character this high level"-
--Require some kind of resource be spent to use the petrification ability, maybe with a recharge, also. This is actually how the source material gorgons work, it takes mana to turn stuff to stone in the story, at least.
--Make the petrification slow rather than instantaneous. Like, once inflicted with the petrification gaze, the target loses dex each turn and doesn't fully turn to stone until they hit 0 dex. This isn't how the petrification works in the source material, but it's an acceptable way to model petrification overall, I think.*

*also, it still lets a person play a gorgon, turn people into statues, and do what they want with those statues.
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Winnah wrote:No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.
FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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angelfromanotherpin
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Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Voss wrote:Aside from not feeling like a class at all, it runs around paralyzing people, but also is built as a face puncher, not a rogue. Big AC bonus, strength and con bonuses.
I don't even. I think you're looking at individual elements and not the whole.

i) I don't get the distinction you're making between Rogue and 'face puncher.' A Rogue is a fragile DPS class. Sometimes they deal DPS in melee.
ii) The class has a +3 natural armor bonus and no armor or shield proficiencies. It has a d6 hit die. It is fragile like a rogue.
iii) The class is MAD. The ROW formula happens to give it a Str bonus which might or might not even help.
But sometimes instead of trying to stunlock, or get their dandruff to poison people, it hauls off with a morningstar or spear for no apparent reason. (Which is strictly inferior to taking their real combat actions, except when the gaze is a crappy daze effect)
So... it has a generally subpar backup option when its core abilities aren't effective. And that's bad because...
It's an at-will save or lose (but can reach a point where it can affect entire fights), and not at all like hold person, as you can use it over and over again, it affects a lot more target types, and there isn't a save to end early.
In a normal 3e combat, you get like three actions before the combat is over. It doesn't matter how many times you could theoretically use an ability, the actual number of times it's going to be used in any combat is very small. That's why Color Spray and Sleep are crazy good, because they give a lot of effectiveness per action and also target a save that tends to be weak. SoLing one guy within 30 feet isn't meaningfully distinct from a greatsword attack a lot of the time, and those are unlimited use as well. As for affecting more target types, I don't see a meaningful distinction; stopping a threat is stopping a threat, and there are still plenty of things that are cold immune.
Uncanny resemblance means averting or blind folding isn't an issue until after the fact (as no one would have a reason to do so)...
Gaze attacks have no IFF. If the rest of the party is conspicuously not within 30 feet of and/or averting their eyes from the veiled person, that is cause for suspicion. Also...
Combat starts:
Medusa takes off veil.
Did we win yet?
Yay, fun!
This seems like a misunderstanding of how gaze attacks work, which I don't blame you for having because the text isn't at all clear until the Rules Compendium on when eye-aversion decisions are made. The passive AOE doesn't affect a creature until the start of that creature's turn, at which point they can choose how much not looking they are doing.

Look, this is the Den, we have an actual metric for if a character is OP: SGT. AFAIK there isn't an official one for Level 3, but I'll do my best to mod the CR 5 one down.
Euryale (Medusa 3)
Str: 14 [+2], Dex: 13 [+1], Con: 16 [+3], Int: 8 [-1], Wis: 10 [0], Cha: 15 [+2]
HD: 3d6+9 (23 hp); Speed: 30 ground, BAB: +3, Grapple: +5
Defense: 18 (+1 dex +3 natural +3 armor +2 feat +1 deflection); Fort: +5, Ref: +5, Wil: +4
Attack: Snakes +7 melee (1d4+4+poison) or Magic Longspear +8 reach (1d6+6+d6 fire) or Shortbow +4 ranged (1d6+2)
Skills: Bluff +8, Move Silently +7, Spot +6
Abilities: Active Gaze (paralyzed), Passive Gaze (slow), Uncanny Resemblance, Combat School, Dodge.
Gear: Masterwork Studded Leather, Magic Flaming Spear, Cloak of Resistance and Sustenance, Ring of Protection and Arrow Deflection.

versus
ThreatOutcome
A locked door behind an arbitrarily high number of assorted CR 2 traps.No relevant abilities. Sure loss.
A Large Animated iron statue in a throne room.Immune to fort saves, hardness is a bitch. Sure loss.
A Cockatrice in its lair.Inferior brawler. Likely Win.
A Medium Fire Elemental in a mystic forge.Immune to poison and paralysis, inferior brawler. Likely Win.
A Giant Eagle on the wing above a plain.Flybys out of gaze range, but vulnerable to move-and-stare. Likely Win.
A Doppelganger anywhere. They're tricky creatures like that.Ambush-grapples then closes eyes, but snake-pwned. Likely Win.
A Centaur Archer in a light to medium wood.Probably get off one gaze attack; if it works, wins, if not, kited to death. Toss Up.
An Allip in an abandoned temple to a dark god.Immune to fort saves, incorporeal, poor attack matchup. Toss Up.
A Grimlock assault pair hidden in a cavern.Gaze immune, ambush, inferior brawlers. Likely Win.
A Cleric of Hextor in a crypt.Involved. Likely Win.

So an actual build is putting together a solid but not spectacular showing and the gaze is only even relevant in 3/10 of the encounters. Seems fine.
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Post by Username17 »

The Medusa is a classic game design problem for class and level advancement systems. On the one hand, you can see from the existence of abilities like color spray and hold person and wail of the banshee that it simply isn't unreasonable to have an ability that removes an opponent from combat if they fail a save. It's not unreasonable at 1st level and it's not unreasonable at 20th level and it's not unreasonable anywhere in between.

What is unreasonable is having that kind of character defining ability in addition to the abilities your class already gives you. It's like asking to dual class as a wizard or some fucking thing.

This is what people are trying to get at with primary and secondary tracks and shit. You want some people to be a Wizard Elf and some people to be a Wizard Frost Giant. But it takes a pretty severe rewrite of 3e D&D to get there. There just isn't a good set of rules for what should happen if you're a Wizard or a Pirate as a secondary shtick.

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Post by Prak »

Well, I mean...

Gorgon Sphere
Granted Power: You gain immunity to poison.
1st: Hypnotism
3rd: Daze Monster
5th: Hold Person
7th: Stone Shape
9th: Hold Monster
11th: Flesh to Stone
13th: Mass Hold Person
15th: Petrify Any Object (as PAO, but turns things into stone)
17th: Mass Hold Monster
19th: Mass Flesh to Stone (as Flesh to Stone, but any number of creatures in a 100 ft cone)

I mean, you're limited to True Fiend, Conduit, or Spherelock, then, but, still.
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FrankTrollman wrote:In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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Post by radthemad4 »

If you want Medusa Wizards, maybe you should do a gestalt game where one side can be a monster? People who don't want to play monsters could take another class instead (you might want to put in a no dual full casting (e.g. Wizard//Beguiler, Cleric//Druid, though anything//Healer is probably fine) policy).

If my sheet has 'Medusa' written on it, I'd want to to have the same abilities as the one in the monster manual by level 8. If that's too powerful to be an option, I'd rather have 'Half Medusa' or 'Gorgon Blooded' or whatever written on my sheet instead.
Last edited by radthemad4 on Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:05 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Do point buy games handle this sorta thing well?

With DND I feel like they could make bloodline sorcerers into the build a monster class
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Post by Kaelik »

Voss wrote:Not sure what paralyzed but also unconscious even does, mechanically.
A paralyzed but not unconscious creature could use SLAs/Supernatural abilities.

An unconscious creature can't take actions.
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