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virgil
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Are there any problems with building a howdah on a roc?
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deaddmwalking
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

No. It's going to count toward toatal weight carried and encumbrance, but if it weighs less than an elephant it shouldn't matter.
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virgil
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Where's official information on darkwood? The stuff is, per pound, four times as valuable as silver; but I don't recall ever seeing mention of actual trees or forests of darkwood.
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Pixels
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It might be setting specific. FR and Eberron both have trees according to some cursory Googling, but there's no reason it couldn't be magically or alchemically treated wood.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It was just sort of handwvaved in. 3.5 wanted a wooden special material, but all the settings predate it's addition, so none mention it. Fun little consequence of kitchen sinking, but not doing new settings to match.

Eberron isn't really enough of an exception, since a lot of it was done prior to the contest, and it's pretty notorious for ignoring aspect of D&D, like high levels. And instead focusing on the magic tech nonsense without really delving into the details.


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Antariuk
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Eberron features a number of weird or magical types of wood, don't know which supplement they might be listed in, but there is some ranting about soarwood (?) being a vital component of the elemental airships (and at least two conflicting descriptions of its properties), and the the controlled export of rare woods is the between the continent of the elves and the rest of the world is a thing. So Eberron is all about magical wood.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, but in reference to Virgil's question, there isn't any indication if darkwood is 'once in a decade an oak sprouts under a new moon and is therefor transformed in a darkwood tree,' or if the fucking elves have a 100 acre plot where they plant 10 acres of the things every year for easy harvesting on a decade cycle. Multiply by 10 if you feel like it.

It's just 'sometimes shields or ships are made out of magical wood,' because elves and/or Druids.
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Niles
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

virgil wrote:
Are there any problems with building a howdah on a roc?

It can easily go either way.

If you want rocs with howdahs, it's not gonna break any reasonable suspension of disbelief that can stand up to rocs flying around the setting in the first place.

If you don't want people strapping howdahs on rocs, there are any number of plausible reasons aerodynamic, behavioral or biomechanical to give to prevent their use.


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Prak
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

At what level is petrification a level appropriate ability? Is temporary petrification allowable at a lower level than permanent petrification?

Edit: specifically as a gaze attack for a playable gorgon.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Prak wrote:
At what level is petrification a level appropriate ability? Is temporary petrification allowable at a lower level than permanent petrification?

The difference between temporary and permanent petrification is mostly moot. The big deal is that permanently petrified people aren't dead and can't be raised, which very rarely comes up for NPCs. Temporary petrification is a lot like 3.0 hold person - the target is removed from the combat and will be executed if their side loses the fight.

Gaze attacks are rough, as they are AOE effects that don't require an action. Tome rules suggest you can play a Medusa (mostly) as-is as an 8th-level character, and I'd be real leery of including anything at all similar any lower.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I was kind of thinking of making a scaled ability that starts as, like, Sicken, and builds up to a single target petrification, and then the standard cone gaze attack.

The challenge is then figuring level breaks

I'm kind of thinking sickened (Cha mod rnds) from first level, @w hold person at 5th, and full petrifying gaze at 8th.
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.


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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If I were doing that, I'd use the Tome method to figure out what the Medusa would look like as an 8th-level character and then backwards-engineer it into a Savage Species style class progression.

And now I am doing it.

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"Now that we've determined that up to π angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine the specific number (or fraction) of angels dancing?"
"What if angels from another pin engage them in melee combat?"


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Voss
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's pretty much win all the time at 3rd, as paralyze as an action for multiple rounds leads to permanent stun juggling.

That they're also randomly good at face punching and can murder casters with poison are just random bonuses for no reason.

Not sure what paralyzed but also unconscious even does, mechanically.
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Prak
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Honestly, I'd really prefer to just be able to do gorgon as a basic race, so that you can be a gorgon wizard, or assassin, or, say, pirate.
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
That's pretty much win all the time at 3rd, as paralyze as an action for multiple rounds leads to permanent stun juggling.

I don't see the issue. Combats in 3e are very short, it's going to be equivalent to a few castings of Hold Person, except with much shorter range and a built-in way for the enemy to reduce/negate its effectiveness, and those castings can't be swapped out for the much larger Cleric toolbox.

Quote:
That they're also randomly good at face punching and can murder casters with poison are just random bonuses for no reason.

So your concern is that a class that's fragile like a rogue can kill casters with melee attacks? How must you feel about rogues?

Quote:
Not sure what paralyzed but also unconscious even does, mechanically.

Ordinarily, a paralyzed person can still use SLAs or take other purely mental actions; this prevents that, and also when they stop being paralyzed they fall over because they still aren't awake.

Prak wrote:
Honestly, I'd really prefer to just be able to do gorgon as a basic race, so that you can be a gorgon wizard, or assassin, or, say, pirate.

I think that's unworkable as a concept. Their signature ability really is several class levels worth by itself. You'd have to abandon it and focus on the aesthetic of being a scaly person with snake hair, which I imagine would be very unsatisfying. Sure, you could include 'can/must take the Stoning Gaze feat at level 9,' but you're still spending a huge chunk of your adventuring career with a buzzkill asterisk on your Medusa identity.
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"Now that we've determined that up to π angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine the specific number (or fraction) of angels dancing?"
"What if angels from another pin engage them in melee combat?"
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Prak
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What I'm thinking is something like this-

Ravnican Gorgon
  • Ability Scores- +2 Cha
  • Medium Monstrous Humanoid
  • 30 foot movement
  • +1 natural armor
  • Gorgon's Gaze: The gaze of a gorgon has the ability to incapacitate foes. A first level gorgon has a 30' gaze attack which inflicts the sickened condition. Creatures that fail their save are sickened for a number of rounds equal to the gorgon's charisma modifier.
    At fifth level, the gorgon's gaze gains the ability to paralyze foes as the spell Hold Monster. This affect can only be used as an active gaze attack action.
    At eight level, the gorgon's gaze reaches its full strength, a 30' gaze attack that inflicts the petrification condition.

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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Prak wrote:
What I'm thinking is something like this-

Ravnican Gorgon
  • Ability Scores- +2 Cha
  • Medium Monstrous Humanoid
  • 30 foot movement
  • +1 natural armor
  • Gorgon's Gaze: The gaze of a gorgon has the ability to incapacitate foes. A first level gorgon has a 30' gaze attack which inflicts the sickened condition. Creatures that fail their save are sickened for a number of rounds equal to the gorgon's charisma modifier.
    At fifth level, the gorgon's gaze gains the ability to paralyze foes as the spell Hold Monster. This affect can only be used as an active gaze attack action.
    At eight level, the gorgon's gaze reaches its full strength, a 30' gaze attack that inflicts the petrification condition.


I like it, but at 8th level that at-will ability is powerful. Too good. Maybe delay it a bit?
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Voss
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
So your concern is that a class that's fragile like a rogue can kill casters with melee attacks? How must you feel about rogues?

That... isn't at all my issue.

Aside from not feeling like a class at all, it runs around paralyzing people, but also is built as a face puncher, not a rogue. Big AC bonus, strength and con bonuses. But sometimes instead of trying to stunlock, or get their dandruff to poison people, it hauls off with a morningstar or spear for no apparent reason. (Which is strictly inferior to taking their real combat actions, except when the gaze is a crappy daze effect)

Quote:
I don't see the issue.

I can tell. It's an at-will save or lose (but can reach a point where it can affect entire fights), and not at all like hold person, as you can use it over and over again, it affects a lot more target types, and there isn't a save to end early.

Uncanny resemblance means averting or blind folding isn't an issue until after the fact (as no one would have a reason to do so). A simple veil is a perfect disguise, unless they have seen the medusa before and seen them in action, because reasons. (And arguably given the way it's written, that is being generous, as they could be buck naked with snakes out, but having their face covered would mean they are still perfectly indistinguishable from normal humans).

Combat starts:
Medusa takes off veil.
Did we win yet?
Yay, fun!


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Prak
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

JonSetanta wrote:
Prak wrote:
What I'm thinking is something like this-

Ravnican Gorgon
  • Ability Scores- +2 Cha
  • Medium Monstrous Humanoid
  • 30 foot movement
  • +1 natural armor
  • Gorgon's Gaze: The gaze of a gorgon has the ability to incapacitate foes. A first level gorgon has a 30' gaze attack which inflicts the sickened condition. Creatures that fail their save are sickened for a number of rounds equal to the gorgon's charisma modifier.
    At fifth level, the gorgon's gaze gains the ability to paralyze foes as the spell Hold Monster. This affect can only be used as an active gaze attack action.
    At eight level, the gorgon's gaze reaches its full strength, a 30' gaze attack that inflicts the petrification condition.


I like it, but at 8th level that at-will ability is powerful. Too good. Maybe delay it a bit?

I pegged the petrification ability to when an MM medusa would be playable by tome rules.

Hmm... there are two ways that this could be handled that don't involve bumping petrification back past the veil of "I've never gotten to play a character this high level"-
--Require some kind of resource be spent to use the petrification ability, maybe with a recharge, also. This is actually how the source material gorgons work, it takes mana to turn stuff to stone in the story, at least.
--Make the petrification slow rather than instantaneous. Like, once inflicted with the petrification gaze, the target loses dex each turn and doesn't fully turn to stone until they hit 0 dex. This isn't how the petrification works in the source material, but it's an acceptable way to model petrification overall, I think.*

*also, it still lets a person play a gorgon, turn people into statues, and do what they want with those statues.
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Aside from not feeling like a class at all, it runs around paralyzing people, but also is built as a face puncher, not a rogue. Big AC bonus, strength and con bonuses.

I don't even. I think you're looking at individual elements and not the whole.

i) I don't get the distinction you're making between Rogue and 'face puncher.' A Rogue is a fragile DPS class. Sometimes they deal DPS in melee.
ii) The class has a +3 natural armor bonus and no armor or shield proficiencies. It has a d6 hit die. It is fragile like a rogue.
iii) The class is MAD. The ROW formula happens to give it a Str bonus which might or might not even help.

Quote:
But sometimes instead of trying to stunlock, or get their dandruff to poison people, it hauls off with a morningstar or spear for no apparent reason. (Which is strictly inferior to taking their real combat actions, except when the gaze is a crappy daze effect)

So... it has a generally subpar backup option when its core abilities aren't effective. And that's bad because...

Quote:
It's an at-will save or lose (but can reach a point where it can affect entire fights), and not at all like hold person, as you can use it over and over again, it affects a lot more target types, and there isn't a save to end early.

In a normal 3e combat, you get like three actions before the combat is over. It doesn't matter how many times you could theoretically use an ability, the actual number of times it's going to be used in any combat is very small. That's why Color Spray and Sleep are crazy good, because they give a lot of effectiveness per action and also target a save that tends to be weak. SoLing one guy within 30 feet isn't meaningfully distinct from a greatsword attack a lot of the time, and those are unlimited use as well. As for affecting more target types, I don't see a meaningful distinction; stopping a threat is stopping a threat, and there are still plenty of things that are cold immune.

Quote:
Uncanny resemblance means averting or blind folding isn't an issue until after the fact (as no one would have a reason to do so)...

Gaze attacks have no IFF. If the rest of the party is conspicuously not within 30 feet of and/or averting their eyes from the veiled person, that is cause for suspicion. Also...
Quote:
Combat starts:
Medusa takes off veil.
Did we win yet?
Yay, fun!

This seems like a misunderstanding of how gaze attacks work, which I don't blame you for having because the text isn't at all clear until the Rules Compendium on when eye-aversion decisions are made. The passive AOE doesn't affect a creature until the start of that creature's turn, at which point they can choose how much not looking they are doing.

Look, this is the Den, we have an actual metric for if a character is OP: SGT. AFAIK there isn't an official one for Level 3, but I'll do my best to mod the CR 5 one down.
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)

So an actual build is putting together a solid but not spectacular showing and the gaze is only even relevant in 3/10 of the encounters. Seems fine.
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"Now that we've determined that up to π angels can dance on the head of a pin, how do we determine the specific number (or fraction) of angels dancing?"
"What if angels from another pin engage them in melee combat?"
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Medusa is a classic game design problem for class and level advancement systems. On the one hand, you can see from the existence of abilities like color spray and hold person and wail of the banshee that it simply isn't unreasonable to have an ability that removes an opponent from combat if they fail a save. It's not unreasonable at 1st level and it's not unreasonable at 20th level and it's not unreasonable anywhere in between.

What is unreasonable is having that kind of character defining ability in addition to the abilities your class already gives you. It's like asking to dual class as a wizard or some fucking thing.

This is what people are trying to get at with primary and secondary tracks and shit. You want some people to be a Wizard Elf and some people to be a Wizard Frost Giant. But it takes a pretty severe rewrite of 3e D&D to get there. There just isn't a good set of rules for what should happen if you're a Wizard or a Pirate as a secondary shtick.

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Prak
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, I mean...

Gorgon Sphere
Granted Power: You gain immunity to poison.
1st: Hypnotism
3rd: Daze Monster
5th: Hold Person
7th: Stone Shape
9th: Hold Monster
11th: Flesh to Stone
13th: Mass Hold Person
15th: Petrify Any Object (as PAO, but turns things into stone)
17th: Mass Hold Monster
19th: Mass Flesh to Stone (as Flesh to Stone, but any number of creatures in a 100 ft cone)

I mean, you're limited to True Fiend, Conduit, or Spherelock, then, but, still.
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Dean, on Paranoia wrote:
The book is a hardbound liars paradox.


Winnah wrote:
No, No. 'Prak' is actually a Thri Kreen impersonating a human and roleplaying himself as a D&D character. All hail our hidden insect overlords.


FrankTrollman wrote:
In Soviet Russia, cosmic horror is the default state.

You should gain sanity for finding out that the problems of a region are because there are fucking monsters there.
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radthemad4
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If you want Medusa Wizards, maybe you should do a gestalt game where one side can be a monster? People who don't want to play monsters could take another class instead (you might want to put in a no dual full casting (e.g. Wizard//Beguiler, Cleric//Druid, though anything//Healer is probably fine) policy).

If my sheet has 'Medusa' written on it, I'd want to to have the same abilities as the one in the monster manual by level 8. If that's too powerful to be an option, I'd rather have 'Half Medusa' or 'Gorgon Blooded' or whatever written on my sheet instead.


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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Do point buy games handle this sorta thing well?

With DND I feel like they could make bloodline sorcerers into the build a monster class
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 12:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Not sure what paralyzed but also unconscious even does, mechanically.


A paralyzed but not unconscious creature could use SLAs/Supernatural abilities.

An unconscious creature can't take actions.
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