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Edits to After Sundown: Magic
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lokathor wrote:
Problem (maybe): Due to the way that Resistance Tests work, it's impossible to activate a power and end up with exactly zero net hits. For most powers at least. Unlike with skill checks and attacks, the resistance test doesn't set the threshold, it reduces the hits, and then the threshold is almost always zero, but then zero hits makes the power fail.

So, I dunno what to do about that one, but it seems weird.


I thought this was a question of order of operations, but it seems like a mechanic designed for "tough"/"willful" targets to be able to not only absorb, but even blot out, effects that target them.
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 8:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's fine that you can resist a power entirely.

What's weird is that powers that target a threshold can activate with 0 net hits, but powers that target a resistance roll can't activate with 0 net hits. They activate with at least 1 net hit, or they don't activate at all. That's what makes them weird.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

With a resisted power there are two people rolling dice. Only one of them can succeed if the same number of hits are rolled, because both players made their threshold. Since the resistance is rolled second, that's the one which is succeeding at threshold zero.

-Frank
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lokathor wrote:
It's fine that you can resist a power entirely.

What's weird is that powers that target a threshold can activate with 0 net hits, but powers that target a resistance roll can't activate with 0 net hits. They activate with at least 1 net hit, or they don't activate at all. That's what makes them weird.


Oh, okay. That does seem odd. I'm not really familiar with any powers that can activate with 0 net hits though, which ones brought this to your attention in the first place?

I'm not sure I understand Frank's explanation though. Okay, so Frank explained why resisted effects fail on 0 hits (i.e. Resistance is tested after a Target endures and Effect). Which still leaves effects that can succeed at threshold 0 seeming odd.
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

An example is using Purify The Mind to remove a "life damaging phobia", threshold 2, and then rolling 2 hits. The spell works and there are zero net hits to stage down the time with.

It's not the worst, just something to keep in mind when using net hits as a spell effect modifier.

I will try to do some more magic editing some time soon.
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The example of "zero net hits" makes sense now. You're not counting the "Threshold" or "Hits" going to zero, but rather that there are no hits after reaching the casting threshold was reached; so... no bonus effects for having hits above the minimum threshold.

Perhaps adding a descriptor for what happens when a creature reaches net hits; and what is staged up/down for bonus hits?
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Cervantes
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Gonna push this thread up to note some terminology suggestions and raise a question about how to display information about Discipline Skill/Stat recommendations.

Remove spells as a category of powers. Powers that were not spells before (passive powers) are now intrinsic powers.

As noted in the "Troubled Design" thread, it should be more apparent which Disciplines correspond to which skills (and to which stats as well). To add onto that, there should probably be some overall idea as to how to divide up disciplines between skills/stats and how that would proceed.

My first foray into that is here (built on top of Lokathor's draft of a new Magic chapter), where I give "recommended dicepools" to the Astral Disciplines (in a very confusing and shoddy manner, sorry). The fact that stats and skills are combined means you can't just say "do logic or intuition here, then do some of these skills" because players might maximize logic and those skills and find out that they're Intuition+Skill checks.

Something like Frank's tables in Troubled Design might be good but ideally we could pare it down even more to just general recommendations.

e: Oh, and I overestimated the degree to which players would want to "complete" a Discipline by learning all of the powers as opposed to just grabbing whatever they thought was cool.


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Grek
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've been working toward a rewrite of the powers for AS2. Here's my current draft, if anyone wants to steal ideas.


The supernatural abilities of a character are divided into a number of Disciplines. Each Discipline has a name (such as Celerity, Necromancy or Names of the Blasphemies), a type (Astral, Infernal, Umbral or Universal) and contains a number of Powers. A Power may be a Talent, a Sorcery or Innate, and will often include certain tags which indicate special rules for using the power in question. Multiple tags often apply. Simply use all of the special rules for all of the tags a power has. The most common tags are listed below:
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But more importantly if you elevate jerkishness into a principle, if you try to undermine the rules that keep niceness, community, and civilization going, the defenses against social cancer then your movement will fracture, it will be hugely embarrassing, the atmosphere will become toxic, unpopular people will be thrown to the mob, everyone but the thickest-skinned will bow out, and the people you need to convince will view you with a mixture of terror and loathing.


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Mord
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Grek wrote:
The May be Permanent tag indicates that a character may (but is not required to) gain the power as an "Permanent" power when they learn it. If a character purchases a power as "Permanent, it defaults to being active cannot be turned off. An example of this would be a Ghost's Empty Body - ghosts don't have a choice about being incorporeal, they simply are. Once this sort of Power is gained, the choice as to whether it will be Permanent or not can only be changed by performing a Power Ritual.

Shouldn't this be "May be Innate"? The term "Permanent" isn't used anywhere else.

Keeping track of the distinctions between sorceries, enchantments, innates, etc. really begs for a table.
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In my draft i wanted to use "Instant" for cast and done spells, and "Enchantment" for cast and last spells. Except I didn't want two things that had a name starting with 'I', and at the time I was using "intrinsic" over "passive".

But yeah, the fundamental powers mostly need to be broken down as:
  • Never dispelled (not many of these but there are some important ones)
  • Lasting and can be dispelled or countered
  • Non-lasting and can be countered (what DnD calls "Instantaneous")

    If a creature has a never-ends version of a power that feels like more a thing that's a property of a creature. We can have general rules for lasting powers being never-ends in some cases, but I dont think we should have individual powers making up their own individual rules for it if we can avoid that.
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    Cervantes
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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Can players even learn Innate/Passive/Intrinsic (lol yikes) Disciplines without something happening to them?

    Keeping a Spell/Talent distinction makes sense if Spells require you to read a dusty tome or have a wizard teach you it.
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    Lokathor
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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    So, in "RAW" After Sundown you need an advancement tarot card to learn a power, and if the power is non-universal you also need a teacher or book to learn it.

    My re-written magic chapter did not take a stance on that changing. We could change it if we want. Personally i think that if you have a card, needing a teacher or not should kinda be up to the group (same way that having magic words to cast magic kinda changes the tone and should probably be up to the group).

    As to if passive powers are learnable at all, sure. Things like Patience of The Mountains, Bite of The Serpent, Walk of Flame.
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    Grek
    Prince


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    PostPosted: Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    @Mord: Innate and Permanent are two slightly different things. Innate powers are stuff like Will to Power, Clinging and Fire Walking. You learn the power and it gives you a permanent passive benefit. May be Permanent is for things like Empty Body, Giant Size and Light of Ennui - Vow of Silence-breaking things that are normally activated, but which certain weird individuals have an always-on version of. But yes, a table would be good.
    TagRequires Training?Detection?Dispelling?Obviously Magical?Supernatural Weakness?
    AstralN/AMagnets.Salt.N/AN/A
    InfernalN/AWater.Sand.N/AN/A
    UmbralN/AFlowers.Seeds.N/AN/A
    TalentOnly if from different power source.No.No.No, but may draw attention.Disables this power.
    SorceryTeacher or spellbook.Yes.Yes. Increases casting TN.Always.Disables this power.
    InnateOnly for non-starting powers.Only during Ritual.TN 3 during Ritual only.Only during Ritual.Only blocks Ritual.
    EnchantmentN/A; see the other tag.Yes, but at +1 TN.Yes. TN 3 to remove.Maybe.Unaffected.

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    But more importantly if you elevate jerkishness into a principle, if you try to undermine the rules that keep niceness, community, and civilization going, the defenses against social cancer then your movement will fracture, it will be hugely embarrassing, the atmosphere will become toxic, unpopular people will be thrown to the mob, everyone but the thickest-skinned will bow out, and the people you need to convince will view you with a mixture of terror and loathing.


    Last edited by Grek on Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:20 am; edited 5 times in total
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