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[OSSR]D2: Shrine of the Kuo-Toa
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Thaluikhain wrote:

Also, the gnomes can see in UV? What is actually generating UV down underground though?


One of the most infuriating things about Gygax's Drow is the big rant about how they can see super well underground because they can see into the Ultraviolet. It's very very weird. Also dumb.

-Frank
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TiaC
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Thaluikhain wrote:

Also, the gnomes can see in UV? What is actually generating UV down underground though?


One of the most infuriating things about Gygax's Drow is the big rant about how they can see super well underground because they can see into the Ultraviolet. It's very very weird. Also dumb.

-Frank


I'm guessing the logic is that *Blacklight* must exist in darkness.
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Lovecraft didn't later add a love triangle between Dagon, Chtulhu, & the Colour-Out-of-Space; only to have it broken up through cyber-bullying by the King in Yellow.

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If your enemy is fucking Gravity, are you helping or hindering it by putting things on high shelves? I don't fucking know! That's not even a thing. Your enemy can't be Gravity, because that's stupid.
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Shiritai
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

TiaC wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:

One of the most infuriating things about Gygax's Drow is the big rant about how they can see super well underground because they can see into the Ultraviolet. It's very very weird. Also dumb.

-Frank


I'm guessing the logic is that *Blacklight* must exist in darkness.


It *would* explain why the Drow are so dark.
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

How exactly would one transport 600 levels worth of Drow to the shrine anyway?

The logistics of that seem like it would end with your Drow captives kicking you to death. Especially if that requirement is for each of the PCs, and not the party as a whole.
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Ancient History
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Provided you felt like trolling the Random Encounter Tables, the Drow parties have 28-64 levels worth of characters. So it would take probably a couple of in-game weeks to get enough captives, but it's doable. If you're lucky, Mister Cavern might reason you've pissed off the Drow enough to send an army after you, which would solve the issue in a hurry.
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ancient History wrote:
Throughout this module, the Kuo-Toa show little Lovecraftian references, like the angles of the shrine being wrong and all that, but the actual appearance of Lobster Tits actually traces back to the obscure William Hope Hodgson story "The Island of the Ud" - because Gary was well-read.


Sometimes, the etymological sources of aspects of D&D are more interesting than what was used in D&D itself.
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tussock
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

AD&D Vision is easy.

Infravision is like moonlight, everything is the same colour and you can't make out more than basic outlines, and then only at very short range underground, but it's heat vision so living things (or unnaturally cold things) stand out very clearly. You can't hide in shadows from Infravision, but you can hide in heat. Footprints can be followed for a couple minutes.

Long range Infravision is active IR-torch eyes, most dungeon monsters have IR-torch eyes, and can see the shapes of everything in detail, as well as picking up warm or unnaturally cold creatures. Neither passive nor active Infravision work in torchlight or better. This is also 3e's Darkvision, except for the sad lack of glowing eyes.

Ultravision is like twilight even in full darkness, you can see normally but not far. It's for seeing on a dark night, and only works underground in drow cities which are built in special radiation chambers. Ultravision doesn't even work in candlelight. This is 3e Low-Light Vision, except in 3e it works in torchlight too.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In case you were wondering: everything Tussock just said is wrong. I know you're all shocked.
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TiaC
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It seems like it would take some real effort to be as consistently wrong as tussock, but somehow he manages it.
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Lovecraft didn't later add a love triangle between Dagon, Chtulhu, & the Colour-Out-of-Space; only to have it broken up through cyber-bullying by the King in Yellow.

FrankTrollman wrote:
If your enemy is fucking Gravity, are you helping or hindering it by putting things on high shelves? I don't fucking know! That's not even a thing. Your enemy can't be Gravity, because that's stupid.
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Thaluikhain
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 2:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Er, from what I remember of AD&D infravision, Tussock seems to be correct about that. Don't remember how ultravision was supposed to work.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Infravision is defined differently in several different places within AD&D. The key is that it has a range and it shuts off when you are next to a light source. If you can see with normal vision, you don't get to see with infravision. Because it's AD&D and fuck you.

There are several different rants about the "science" of Infravision, and indeed there is a rant in the AD&D DMG about how monsters shoot infrared lasers out of their eyes and normal infravision users would see them all as having glowing red eyes. This rant is totally not supported in other parts of the rules.

The fact that Ultraviolet light is not really emitted or present without the Sun being involved is something that parts of the DMG notice and talk about. This goes completely fucking out the window in the discussions of monsters who actually have Ultravision, because just about all of them live underground.

Then there's a second thing where some parts of the rules seem to think that magic in general is an ultraviolet light source. Which would be cool if that was in any way consistent. What we actually get is rants about how Drow equipment melts in the sun because there isn't enough ultraviolet radiation above ground. It's... it's really bad. The only saving grace is that at least Gygax can't keep his fucking story straight and his babbling is totally different every time he sits down at a typewriter.

-Frank
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Emerald
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
Infravision is defined differently in several different places within AD&D. The key is that it has a range and it shuts off when you are next to a light source. If you can see with normal vision, you don't get to see with infravision. Because it's AD&D and fuck you.

There are several different rants about the "science" of Infravision, and indeed there is a rant in the AD&D DMG about how monsters shoot infrared lasers out of their eyes and normal infravision users would see them all as having glowing red eyes. This rant is totally not supported in other parts of the rules.

The fact that Ultraviolet light is not really emitted or present without the Sun being involved is something that parts of the DMG notice and talk about. This goes completely fucking out the window in the discussions of monsters who actually have Ultravision, because just about all of them live underground.

Then there's a second thing where some parts of the rules seem to think that magic in general is an ultraviolet light source. Which would be cool if that was in any way consistent. What we actually get is rants about how Drow equipment melts in the sun because there isn't enough ultraviolet radiation above ground. It's... it's really bad. The only saving grace is that at least Gygax can't keep his fucking story straight and his babbling is totally different every time he sits down at a typewriter.

-Frank


It's not as bad or contradictory as that, and Tussock is actually mostly not wrong in this case. Spoilering things for length and big quote blocks:

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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Drow being constantly exposed to massive underground UV radiation sources would explain why they have such high melanin content and why they don't all suffer from serous vitamin D deficiency.
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

How long is this dungeon expected to take to complete
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Ancient History
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Doesn't say, but it's a tournament module, so probably 1-3 hours if you don't lollygag and try to sack the shrine along the way.
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Harshax
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Slavers Modules (A1-A4) actually outlined a scoring system and a time limit for their modules. I'm specifically looking at A2 at the moment. The time limit was 3 hours for that adventure. Points were tabulated based on the last encounter completed as well as the number of characters which survived. The scoring system assumed you had 9 players. The best possible score was 405 points, for all 9 characters to complete and survive Area 9. To avoid ties during an actual tournament, the DM was allowed to adjust scoring for excellence of play by -/+ 3 points. So, 432 points was the best possible score.
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talozin
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ancient History wrote:
Not while Gary Gygax was writing them. I want to say Against the Cult of the Reptile God was a pretty decent introductory adventure.


I'd have to go and reread it to be totally sure, and my copy is packed up in anticipation of moving, but my recollection is that Cult of the Reptile God is a fine introductory adventure right up until the last encounter. And then they all die, or become the BBEG's new brainwashed henchmen, because they're fighting a 9HD monster who has the spellcasting ability of a 5th level wizard plus that of a 4th level cleric; a Charm Person gaze attack; and a poisonous bite.
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tussock
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 2:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, but ...

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The treasure is colossal and will totally put everyone up a level and also give them all a pretty sweet magic item.
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JigokuBosatsu
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Shiritai wrote:
TiaC wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:

One of the most infuriating things about Gygax's Drow is the big rant about how they can see super well underground because they can see into the Ultraviolet. It's very very weird. Also dumb.

-Frank


I'm guessing the logic is that *Blacklight* must exist in darkness.


It *would* explain why the Drow are so dark.


What color is a drow's skin, anyway? I remember in their early Greyhawk appearances they were "olive-skinned" but in every illustration I've ever seen they're purple.
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Sir Aubergine
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
What color is a drow's skin, anyway? I remember in their early Greyhawk appearances they were "olive-skinned" but in every illustration I've ever seen they're purple.


The old school pictures I've looked at would give them either full purple skin or black skin with purple accents/outlines. More modern pictures discarded the purple element and went for either coal black or very dark gray.

In Drowtales they actually made them have different flavors of gray, and implied it was an eugenically induced process perpetuated to further distinguish all of the warring clans.

Olive skin sounds really interesting? That most have been really early works right?
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JigokuBosatsu
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This is a super ancient memory, but the only specific reference I can think of was the original description of Tysiln San in the Valley of the Mage.

I am ready to accept this memory as incorrect, but I do remember being confused by it since, like I said, usually purple.
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tussock
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Fiend Folio wrote:
Drow are black-skinned and pale-haired. They are slight of build and have long, delicate fingers and toes.

Maybe it's different in the original G3? I have G1-3 with the same text, specifying further that the males are dead black skin with dead white hair, with orange to orange-yellow eyes, and the females are glossy black skin with shiny silver hair and amber eyes or rarely "lambent violet", which means something like a dull glow.

In 2nd edition, they're black skinned with pale hair, usually white. The core art however changed from black to grey skinned, and other art has them somewhat purple, I'm pretty sure the art being grey to purple here and there was a matter of the inability to print large solid black colours without bleed-through.

3.0 Drow have Jet black skin with pale hair, usually white, so do 3.5 Drow. The art is obviously glossy black skin. 4th edition uses the exact same art.

5th edition Drow are "dark-skinned", but the art is still jet black skin with white hair.

People who aren't D&D tend to make them purple, so as to not suggest quite so much that dark elves lost the race war and now just steal from and murder the white elves while raiding from their ghettos. But in D&D, Drow are jet black, with the females somewhat shinier, and they lost the race war because the white elves were better than them.

But you know, Gygax, 70s. The bad guy races are brown, and darker as they get meaner, and drow are the meanest of all, so they are jet black, because that is what scary people look like. The best and most good elves are the fairest, it's not subtle.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 5:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tussock wrote:
The core art however changed from black to grey skinned, and other art has them somewhat purple, I'm pretty sure the art being grey to purple here and there was a matter of the inability to print large solid black colours without bleed-through.


That's basically it, yeah. Same reason Superman is shown with blue hair. Black hair is hard to do in a lot of printed art. If you're doing colored-in line drawings, black hair looks pretty weird.

Drow became colors other than black because as originally described they were hard to draw.



How are you going to color this picture if the color is supposed to be "black"?

-Frank
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