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The immutable sacred commandments of D&D are...
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codeGlaze
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I feel like a reasonable litmus test would be a character converter for the new addition. Can I reasonably Port my favorite character from X previous edition to this edition?

This excludes 4th edition. Because that is wholly incompatible with previous incarnations of the game.

How "accurate," will the new rendition of my character be compared to the old original?

How easy will the conversion be?
Do I have to do a lot of custom tweaking?
Is that tweaking difficult?
Did my custom tweaking actually bring my character in line with my original vision?

I honestly think that if the new rules are easy to understand and you can create a character conversion process that outputs characters similar to what people were previously running... you can have success.
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Raistlin being a CON wizard because he used a staff was a travesty
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saithorthepyro
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

OgreBattle wrote:
Raistlin being a CON wizard because he used a staff was a travesty


Because he used CON or because it was a magical item? Because I wouldn't mind flavorful classes that use other stats for casting spells.

As far as Commandments go, I'd say it needs
-to a fantasy setting, preferably Kitchen-sink
-D20 resolution mechanics
-As mentioned by codeGlaze, character converter

Everything else is optional IMO. I'd welcome a large re-write of D&D that tries something new, as long as it was good. However unlikely that will be.
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

saithorthepyro wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:
Raistlin being a CON wizard because he used a staff was a travesty


Because he used CON or because it was a magical item? Because I wouldn't mind flavorful classes that use other stats for casting spells.

Raistlin's origin story includes his health being shattered and getting a unique magic staff. It was a situation that called out for 4e's 'exception-based design' to say that either that staff in particular or Krynn staffs in general don't run off CON. But no.
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saithorthepyro
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
saithorthepyro wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:
Raistlin being a CON wizard because he used a staff was a travesty


Because he used CON or because it was a magical item? Because I wouldn't mind flavorful classes that use other stats for casting spells.

Raistlin's origin story includes his health being shattered and getting a unique magic staff. It was a situation that called out for 4e's 'exception-based design' to say that either that staff in particular or Krynn staffs in general don't run off CON. But no.


So they missed the opportunity and that magic item is cannon and annoying, but I have to ask, why a travesty? It's really just a crappy magic item to use, since either you build the character around it and hope for DM pity, or build your wizard normally and sell it as soon as you get it. I'm not seeing what makes it a 'a false, absurd, or distorted representation of something.'
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jadagul
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

saithorthepyro wrote:
angelfromanotherpin wrote:
saithorthepyro wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:
Raistlin being a CON wizard because he used a staff was a travesty


Because he used CON or because it was a magical item? Because I wouldn't mind flavorful classes that use other stats for casting spells.

Raistlin's origin story includes his health being shattered and getting a unique magic staff. It was a situation that called out for 4e's 'exception-based design' to say that either that staff in particular or Krynn staffs in general don't run off CON. But no.


So they missed the opportunity and that magic item is cannon and annoying, but I have to ask, why a travesty? It's really just a crappy magic item to use, since either you build the character around it and hope for DM pity, or build your wizard normally and sell it as soon as you get it. I'm not seeing what makes it a 'a false, absurd, or distorted representation of something.'


Presumably because one of Raistlin's defining traits is his low Constitution, and in 4e they built him with high constitution because he used a staff.
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Whipstitch
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

As far as nitpicks go it's a pretty serious one too, since the character really is an inferiority complex on two legs. His backstory is basically that he's Danny DeVito from Twins and he uses his shitty childhood resentments as fuel in his quest to become the biggest jerkass in all the land.
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saithorthepyro
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Didn't realize it was the obvious, for some reason that didn't compute for me. That is a good nitpick, because a lot of his character is what Wipstitch said, in addition to how many times those books tried to show his physical fragility.

Anyway, trying to get back on topic, I saw HP as a sacred cow, and while I think the concept of HP is one, maybe not the way it's been implemented. HP numbers and it's progression through the game has always been weird to me, and rarely balances out. If it was trying to represent realism by no balancing out, fine, but it doesn't represent realism either.
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Insomniac
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

No negative effects for being low HP or even getting positive benefits for a certain HP breakpoint, like 4E having abilities that only work when something is "bloodied." Hit in the face with an axe five times? Congratulations, have some more power!
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The only "core" things that I could see being as being often considered inseparable from D&D:

Retro
-Adventuring Classes
-Class Levels
-Dungeons for Dubious Reasons
-Dungeons have Levels (to further confusion)
-Why the PCs are adventuring is... pretty vague; and probably bogus

Stupid
-Procedurally generated player characters & game content
-Player Character Attributes
-Planes of existence, environmental biome, weather, time of day
-Level of dungeon, type of encounter (NPC, Trap, Monster)
-Adjudication of opposed actions

Pretentious
-Lots of descriptive details that have little-to-no meaning in game mechanics (character height, weight; eye colour, hair colour, skin tone)
-The indelible assumption that the PCs are the most important characters in the world
-Character backstories
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saithorthepyro
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 12:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Insomniac wrote:
No negative effects for being low HP or even getting positive benefits for a certain HP breakpoint, like 4E having abilities that only work when something is "bloodied." Hit in the face with an axe five times? Congratulations, have some more power!


Well, the 'bloodied' effect does have a place in stories. There's been characters who after getting beat on for a bit get completely enraged and trounce the person beating them up.

The one I've noticed about HP, which I can't decided if it's good or bad, is how much it's gain with level-up drops off in value each time you level. If you do the average+con per level for HP gain, you get a set linear amount each level, but in regards to it's amount versus your current HP, it becomes a diminishing returns situation, where in on getting to Level 2 and ignoring CON modifiers you get an 50% of your current HP, but it drops to 33% at level 3, 8.3% at level 10, and I'm not certain if this is a good or bad thing.

Judging__Eagle wrote:

Pretentious
-Lots of descriptive details that have little-to-no meaning in game mechanics (character height, weight; eye colour, hair colour, skin tone)
-The indelible assumption that the PCs are the most important characters in the world
-Character backstories


1st one I agree with, players can decide that on their own. 2nd can too often go in the other direction where the PC have no impact on the world around them. 3rd, do you mean mechanical benefits/rules for character backstories, or backstories in general?
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 21, 2017 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Backstories in general. D&D makes both the assumptions that: A) Backstories are super important guis while B) Having no mechanical incentives for having a backstory at all.

The whole "Backstories" mechanic that Frank & Keith introduced in [Tome] went a long way towards encouraging players to "do the sorts of narrative things we want happening in games."

In general most forms of fluff are overexposed bullshit fantasy rpg tropes. However having it at all gives contrast and allows for the contradictory behaviours seen in the illogical nature of humans that crunch alone cannot always provide. So, giving backgrounds some equally bullshit mechanics makes the fluff come into game play with some game-tweaking crunch.
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GâtFromKI
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: The immutable sacred commandments of D&D are... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

OgreBattle wrote:
So what are the elements of D&D that must be in a new edition, lest the fans revolt?

Every edition killed a fair number of sacred cows; including 3e, which is one of the most D&D-esque edition (no THAC0? one single ability bonus table? bonus spells for wizards? spontaneous casting for bards? Rogues have the same BBA as clerics?).

The "necessary elements" are determined by some unknown alchemical formula: you can remove almost anything, but you can't remove everything at the same time. You can remove vancian casting, you can use 3d6 instead of 1d20, you can replace fireball with elemental ball, you can remove the classes, but maybe you shouldn't do all those thing at the same time.

The necessary elements are maybe:
* dungeon crawling. You may include rules for wilderness, town, social interaction, etc, but the base system should handle a group of adventurers going into a dark confined place filled with traps and hostile monsters.
* kitchen-sink fantasy in a pseudo-medieval era. You may include optional settings like spelljammer or dark sun or ravenloft, but your base default setting should be something like FR or Golarion or Greyhawk.
* Zero-to-hero progression? I'm not even sure about this one, but for me power levels should go from "random skilled guys" to "almost gods".
* Some iconic monsters (beholders, owlbear, orc, lich...) and spells/effects (magic missile, raise dead, bigby stuffs, prismatic stuffs, time stop...).


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nockermensch
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 2:52 pm    Post subject: Re: The immutable sacred commandments of D&D are... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

GâtFromKI wrote:
You can remove vancian casting

angry dog noises

But yeah, I see your point.
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codeGlaze
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 1:08 pm    Post subject: Re: The immutable sacred commandments of D&D are... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

GâtFromKI wrote:
OgreBattle wrote:
So what are the elements of D&D that must be in a new edition, lest the fans revolt?
[snip]

The "necessary elements" are determined by some unknown alchemical formula: you can remove almost anything, but you can't remove everything at the same time. You can remove vancian casting, you can use 3d6 instead of 1d20, you can replace fireball with elemental ball, you can remove the classes, but maybe you shouldn't do all those thing at the same time.

Very much this.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

To be Dungeons and Dragons it has to have swords & sorcery, it has to support small groups of adventurers, and it has to have personal advancement and wealth accumulation. That about covers it. Various people have made D&D variants and versions where the characters become immortal godlike beings who make their own worlds, and those where player advancement goes from hobo to elite soldier - so the actual range of personal advancement could be very large or very small.

-Frank
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Occluded Sun
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 11:18 pm    Post subject: Re: The immutable sacred commandments of D&D are... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

GâtFromKI wrote:
you can remove almost anything, but you can't remove everything at the same time. You can remove vancian casting, you can use 3d6 instead of 1d20, you can replace fireball with elemental ball, you can remove the classes, but maybe you shouldn't do all those thing at the same time.


That's the guy who is correct, right there. I only wish I could type his name properly.
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