Dang Bro, Paizo's at it again with a CRPG Kickstarter

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Heaven's Thunder Hammer
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Dang Bro, Paizo's at it again with a CRPG Kickstarter

Post by Heaven's Thunder Hammer »

So I got this email today about a new Paizo CRPG based on their KingMaker adventure path. I was unfortunately a backer of the original MMO debacle, which, I think is still moving along on fumes somehow. I googled it and yes, it is somehow around. http://www.mmorpg.com/pathfinder-online

A separate studio wants to license their IP, so I'm guessing this is much less of a burden on Paizo to produce. Attached is the email, with the link below. Thoughts?
Dear Heaven's Thunder Hammer,

Since we launched the world of Golarion and the Pathfinder RPG, I have eagerly awaited the day when I could announce a single-player computer RPG based on our game and world. Many companies have approached me over the years, but the fit was never quite right.

Last year, our friends at Obsidian connected us to the folks at Owlcat Games, who had some interesting ideas for a Kingmaker CRPG. Owlcat wanted to meet us at Gen Con and show us what they had in mind. I was expecting maybe a Powerpoint presentation, but they brought a work in progress. To say I was blown away was an understatement. They had clearly put a lot of time, effort, and thought into everything—and we hadn't even signed a deal yet! I ran around the convention finding various Paizo employees to look at it, and everyone got super excited. We started work on a licensing deal right away.

A couple months ago, Owlcat came to the Paizo offices to show us a vertical slice of Pathfinder: Kingmaker. A vertical slice is a small segment of how the finished game is going to look and play. We were all mesmerized playing the game, which was filled with a ton of familiar Golarion hooks in the artwork and mechanics. A lucky few of you at PaizoCon 2017 had the opportunity to play through a similar vertical slice, and all the feedback we received was super positive.

I need to tell you a little bit about Owlcat Games. They're a new development studio, but don't take that to mean they're inexperienced! Some of them have been together for more than a decade, and the list of games they've helped create is strong. They have the backing of one of the largest game companies around, so you don't need to worry about their stability. And you definitely don't need to worry about their enthusiasm for Pathfinder—they're longtime gamers, and have several different tabletop Pathfinder campaigns running in their office. They know the setting, the story, and the rules as well as anyone. And they've been joined by CRPG legend Chris Avellone, who is infusing his touch of story genius into our now-classic Adventure Path.

Owlcat Games has the full backing of their parent company to make the game to the specifications that we had approved, but they have a lot of great ideas beyond that spec, so they decided to launch a Kickstarter that's all about making it bigger and more awesome—more sidequests, more companions, more options, more depth.

Owlcat launched their 35-day Kickstarter on Tuesday morning, and as I write this on Thursday afternoon, they are halfway to the $500,000 funding goal! They have plenty of stretch goals waiting to be revealed, so the more support they get from the community, the bigger and better the game will be. They're offering a ton of different support levels, including reserving your copy of the game for as little as $28!

A great Pathfinder computer RPG is something that I have personally waited a decade for, and I couldn't be more excited to see it come to fruition. If, like me, you have been waiting impatiently for a Pathfinder CRPG set in the world of Golarion, back this Kickstarter!

Lisa Stevens
CEO, Paizo Inc.
Kickstarter Link:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/ow ... -kingmaker
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Post by DSMatticus »

Other than Avellone, the team looks like a whole lot of "who?" This isn't their first time at the rodeo, but you probably haven't heard of anything else they've worked on and most of those things were not critically well-received. I will say the one game they did that was well-received was a turn-based tactical game (with RPG elements) set in WW2. So, that's a point in their favor, and Avellone isn't a total incompetent even if his name is somewhat diluted in these days. And Kingmaker would make a much better videogame than it would an adventure path, since the focus of the first entire goddamn half is exploring random meaningless bullshit and grinding out wilderness encounters.

I'm already more interested than I was in Pillars or Numenera. That's a low bar, but it's there.
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Post by Prak »

Honestly, I'd rather just play an Enderal-style mod of Skyrim...
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Post by Longes »

DSMatticus wrote:Other than Avellone, the team looks like a whole lot of "who?" This isn't their first time at the rodeo, but you probably haven't heard of anything else they've worked on and most of those things were not critically well-received. I will say the one game they did that was well-received was a turn-based tactical game (with RPG elements) set in WW2. So, that's a point in their favor, and Avellone isn't a total incompetent even if his name is somewhat diluted in these days. And Kingmaker would make a much better videogame than it would an adventure path, since the focus of the first entire goddamn half is exploring random meaningless bullshit and grinding out wilderness encounters.

I'm already more interested than I was in Pillars or Numenera. That's a low bar, but it's there.
If it helps - the three cRPGs they worked on are all cult classics in Russia. Rage of Mages 2 even got sufficiently popular abroad that there are still active servers for its multiplayer. And both Evil Islands and HoMM5 had critical acclaim.

I really hope the kickstarter succeeds, because their goal seems like it'd be the most interesting part of the game.
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Post by Axebird »

If they can pull it off, the game they describe sounds neat. They're being incredibly ambitious with content though, if you read their update on character building and difficulty:
Character classes must not chain you to a certain concept, but provide you with new ideas, and that can only be made possible by large amounts of options for each of them. Our Barbarians will have a large allotment of Rage Powers, and will also have a choice between unchained and standard Rage. Rogues will have rogue talents - and will also be unchained! Wizards need to have as many spells as we can make, from both the core rulebook and other books, and there are already more than 15 spells to choose from for each of the three first spell levels, including Gravity Bow, Snowball and Enlarge Person on the first. And fighters will need all the combat feats there are, and, given enough time, advanced weapon and armor training. The list is constantly growing! We want these features to be as true to the Pathfinder RPG as possible.

There will be around 10 variants of animal companions, and the same goes for familiars. There will be more than 300 feats, including large feat chains. Some of you asked about deities - there will be at least the Big Twenty. There will be combat maneuvers. There will be blood… lines. Domains. Specialist arcane school powers. Alchemical discoveries and bardic masterpieces. Metamagic and combat styles. Lots and lots of spells. And, of course, prestige classes will also be there.
Seems like their plans for content include "most of the hardback content that isn't classes, and some of those classes too". Which... is a massive volume of shit for a CRPG.
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Post by Ikeren »

I also followed Pathfinder Online and logged in a few times. What a flaming trainwreck.

Blowing down a basically-identical cRPG to all the other basically identical cRPG's out there will be less difficult. If the combat feels as precise and tactical and as explained as Temple of Elemental Evil, I'll be impressed. If it instead feels as washy-gibberish of misclicks, poorly explained effects, why are my guys going here, as Dragon Age: Origins and Pillars of Eternity, I'll be less impressed.
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Post by Slade »

Yes, ToEE but no horrible bugs would make it a decent game. I kickstarted, I figure hope the best, but expect the worst.

Did they mention if multiclassing available?
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Post by Starmaker »

So Paizo gave up on chasing the pink / black dollar? Ha, now I don't have to feel bad about wishing for them to crash and burn.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I don't support kickstarter solicitations from big companies. They can get a damn loan like any other corporation. That might mean more if I've ever supported anyone's kickstarter though...
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Post by hogarth »

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:I don't support kickstarter solicitations from big companies. They can get a damn loan like any other corporation. That might mean more if I've ever supported anyone's kickstarter though...
Owlcat Games is a big company?
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Post by Kaelik »

hogarth wrote:
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:I don't support kickstarter solicitations from big companies. They can get a damn loan like any other corporation. That might mean more if I've ever supported anyone's kickstarter though...
Owlcat Games is a big company?
Publishers who tell smaller companies to go make a kickstarter also deserve to be fucked in the eye. It's certainly possible that Pathfinder belongs in this category for the purposes of this example. Though I personally think Pathfinder profit margins are super fucking small potatoes compared to video game budgets.
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Post by Dogbert »

FWIW. Paizo's Second Order Idiot Plots adventure paths are considerably more conductive to passive media than they'll ever be for tabletop, so doing one of them as a videogame would make for a most decent experience and, depending on production values, something I might actually play.

Now, granted, these guys are far from being the Torment guys since they came to Paizo with all the dignity of the teenage ex boyfriend who calls his ex on the phone while drunk in the dead of the night, but all Paizo loses here is the time and ink it takes them to redact a licensing contract, one they're getting paid for without lifting a finger. If the game tanks that will be on Studio Drunk Ex, and if it succeeds, Paizo gets some free street cred and outreach to the videogamer demographic; they have nothing to lose and lots to win.
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Post by icyshadowlord »

My expectations on the game itself aren't very high, so I don't care if it flops or succeeds. Kingmaker as a campaign was alright (at least after heavy modifications) but nothing really special by the end of it all.
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Post by Slade »

Assuming this succeeds, will we get other Adventure paths?
I'd love Hell's Vengeance or Wrath of Righteous (evil supported or Mythic would be cool).
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Post by Ikeren »

Yeah, if this does, it'd be pretty easy to clone using the same system, and plug the new developed content (Feats, classes, abilities) into the pre-existing game.
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Post by Longes »

So now the game is actually out. It's good. It's super buggy, so I recommend waiting until November to play it (there's a massive patch planned for October 22nd), but it's probably my favorite RPG of the year. Certainly more fun than Deadfire.
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Post by CapnTthePirateG »

I'm gonna disagree and say the game is actually bad, mostly due to poor balancing and garbage companion characters.
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Post by Axebird »

I'm a big fan. Probably one of my favorite CRPGs ever. They did a good job of adapting and improving Kingmaker's story, and the companions are interesting and fun.

The difficulty curve is pretty standard for D&D games, of course, the beginning can be tough depending on your build and it gets easier as you get more tools and buffs until you're steamrolling maps with a party buffed to the gills and hasted.
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Post by Slade »

Not a bad game, but realize that easy is supposed to be Normal difficulty.
Actual Normal difficulty is hard mode.

They increased stats from the PnP by 2-4 points in difficulties above Easy.
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Post by Yesterday's Hero »

I've logged 40ish hours on the game so far. The game is good, it's really good. It has some rogh spots (difficulty and bugs, mainly).

I've yet to encounter a critical progress-breaking bug, but from what I've seen from the reviews, many people have encountered them.

The kingdom management difficulty is very high and is increased by the lack of a clear tutorial on how many of the features work.

Fight difficulty is weird, since there is no straight "By the book" difficulty option. I'm playing on Challenging, but I changed the enemy's stats from the standard "Slightly stronger" (basically all enemies have the advanced template) to "Normal" (no templates or other bs).
Did you ever notice that, in action movies, the final confrontation between hero and villain is more often than not an unarmed melee fight? It's like these bad guys have "Regeneration 50/Unarmed strikes".
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Post by radthemad4 »

There's a respec mod that's great for companions, and also just sorta handy for respecing whenever.

https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderkingmaker/mods/7
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Post by sake »

The game is in desperate need of fast travel options like flight or long range teleport, or even just a damn recall to capital spell. And crafting, scrolls and wands at the least. Im not sure how they expected the magus class to function without being able to obtain a regular supply of wands. Ironically enough I think I've only ever seen a single clw wand in the entire game.
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Post by GâtFromKI »

sake wrote:The game is in desperate need of fast travel options like flight or long range teleport, or even just a damn recall to capital spell.
I can't resist... Here in the spoiler is something I wrote on a french forum more than 1 year ago, when the game was in production. Sorry for those who can't read french.
Dalvyn wrote:Dans le descriptif, ils indiquent qu'ils regrettent que la plupart des jeux n'exploitent pas plus ce moment capital qu'est le campement, citant comme exception la trilogie des Arkania (vieux, vieux, vieux) ou Darkest Dungeon.
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Peut-être qu'ils ne le font pas pour des raisons de game-design évidentes ? Par exemple, parce qu'il ont joué à un petit jeu pas très très connu appelé Baldur's Gate, et qu'ils ont vu les problèmes engendré par la gestion du campement ?

Pour ceux qui ne connaîtraient pas ce petit jeu, dans Baldur's Gate on peut se faire attaquer si on passe la nuit en donjon. Solution : on sort du donjon pour dormir à l'extérieur. Voir même on va jusqu'à la ville et on prend une chambre d'hôtel, de toute façon on s'en branle, le méchant va pas quitter son donjon pendant les 2 semaines de voyage. Problème : c'est lent ; les persos mettent des plombes à traverser un écran, et au lieu de passer un bon moment à jouer on se fait chier à regarder des persos traverser des écrans vides. Et vu que les donjons de Baldur sont conçu pour ne pas être faisable d'une traite, c'est une situation qu'a rencontré chacune des personnes ayant joué à Baldur (je reconnais, c'est pas grand-monde, le jeu est pas très connu).

Solution possible : Baldur's Gate aurait pu mettre en place un système de voyage rapide ; voyage rapide jusqu'à la taverne, dormir, voyage rapide jusqu'au point où l'on était dans le donjon. Fantastique. Et donc, pourquoi mettre en place un système de campement que personne n'utilisera ? Dragon Age a bien compris son medium : les PdV et capacités se rechargent après chaque combat, parce que techniquement la seule chose qui empêche de faire ça dans Baldur c'est que le jeu est chiant. Revenir au système de Baldur, c'est revenir 20 ans en arrière dans le jeu vidéo. C'est comme si, dans un FPS moderne, on décidait que le perso allait être bloqué par des murets de 20 cm de haut, ou dans un JdR moderne, on décidait de ralentir les combats à base de jets d'attaque suivi de jets de défense.

Une autre solution possible est d'empêcher le joueur de revenir en arrière ; donc pas de retour à l'auberge. C'était le cas dans Grandia (qui arrivait à générer des ambiances assez cool sur les campement - l'impression d'être réellement perdu dans la nature sauvage sans être sûr qu'on arrivera quelque part) ou Icewind Dale (qui était sur certains passages une fuite en avant des personnages). Dans Kingmaker ? La campagne dont le principe entier est d'upgrader la base arrière des personnages ? lol.

Donc en gros, faut arrêter de participer pour pas qu'ils implémentent des trucs pourris vieux de 20 ans. Euh... Bah c'est fait.
Once again, I was so right... :/
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Post by Longes »

GâtFromKI wrote:
sake wrote:The game is in desperate need of fast travel options like flight or long range teleport, or even just a damn recall to capital spell.
I can't resist... Here in the spoiler is something I wrote on a french forum more than 1 year ago, when the game was in production. Sorry for those who can't read french.
Dalvyn wrote:Dans le descriptif, ils indiquent qu'ils regrettent que la plupart des jeux n'exploitent pas plus ce moment capital qu'est le campement, citant comme exception la trilogie des Arkania (vieux, vieux, vieux) ou Darkest Dungeon.
Image

Peut-être qu'ils ne le font pas pour des raisons de game-design évidentes ? Par exemple, parce qu'il ont joué à un petit jeu pas très très connu appelé Baldur's Gate, et qu'ils ont vu les problèmes engendré par la gestion du campement ?

Pour ceux qui ne connaîtraient pas ce petit jeu, dans Baldur's Gate on peut se faire attaquer si on passe la nuit en donjon. Solution : on sort du donjon pour dormir à l'extérieur. Voir même on va jusqu'à la ville et on prend une chambre d'hôtel, de toute façon on s'en branle, le méchant va pas quitter son donjon pendant les 2 semaines de voyage. Problème : c'est lent ; les persos mettent des plombes à traverser un écran, et au lieu de passer un bon moment à jouer on se fait chier à regarder des persos traverser des écrans vides. Et vu que les donjons de Baldur sont conçu pour ne pas être faisable d'une traite, c'est une situation qu'a rencontré chacune des personnes ayant joué à Baldur (je reconnais, c'est pas grand-monde, le jeu est pas très connu).

Solution possible : Baldur's Gate aurait pu mettre en place un système de voyage rapide ; voyage rapide jusqu'à la taverne, dormir, voyage rapide jusqu'au point où l'on était dans le donjon. Fantastique. Et donc, pourquoi mettre en place un système de campement que personne n'utilisera ? Dragon Age a bien compris son medium : les PdV et capacités se rechargent après chaque combat, parce que techniquement la seule chose qui empêche de faire ça dans Baldur c'est que le jeu est chiant. Revenir au système de Baldur, c'est revenir 20 ans en arrière dans le jeu vidéo. C'est comme si, dans un FPS moderne, on décidait que le perso allait être bloqué par des murets de 20 cm de haut, ou dans un JdR moderne, on décidait de ralentir les combats à base de jets d'attaque suivi de jets de défense.

Une autre solution possible est d'empêcher le joueur de revenir en arrière ; donc pas de retour à l'auberge. C'était le cas dans Grandia (qui arrivait à générer des ambiances assez cool sur les campement - l'impression d'être réellement perdu dans la nature sauvage sans être sûr qu'on arrivera quelque part) ou Icewind Dale (qui était sur certains passages une fuite en avant des personnages). Dans Kingmaker ? La campagne dont le principe entier est d'upgrader la base arrière des personnages ? lol.

Donc en gros, faut arrêter de participer pour pas qu'ils implémentent des trucs pourris vieux de 20 ans. Euh... Bah c'est fait.
Once again, I was so right... :/
Not really.

Very obviously they couldn't get rid of the rest system. Being Pathfinder is a design goal - it is absolutely non-negotiable that there'd be vancian casting and need to rest.

Kingmaker seeks to solve your established problem by preventing you from travelling too much. There's a time limit and the problems won't wait for you to make ten trips from dungeon to home.
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Post by deaddmwalking »

GâtFromKI wrote:
sake wrote:The game is in desperate need of fast travel options like flight or long range teleport, or even just a damn recall to capital spell.
I can't resist... Here in the spoiler is something I wrote on a french forum more than 1 year ago, when the game was in production. Sorry for those who can't read french.
I can read a little French (I'm working on it!) but Google Translate is pretty good. Just to save anyone else a step:
Maybe they do not do it for obvious game-design reasons? For example, because they played a small game not very well known called Baldur's Gate, and they saw the problems caused by the management of the camp?

For those who do not know this little game, in Baldur's Gate you can be attacked if you spend the night in a dungeon. Solution: we leave the dungeon to sleep outside. Seeing even we go to the city and we take a hotel room, anyway we get off, the villain will not leave his dungeon during the 2 weeks of travel. Problem: it's slow; the characters put plumbs through a screen, and instead of having a good time playing we are pissed at watching characters through empty screens. And since Baldur's dungeons are designed not to be feasible in one go, this is a situation encountered by everyone who played Baldur (I admit, it's not big-world, the game is not very well known).

Possible Solution: Baldur's Gate could have put in place a fast travel system; Quick trip to the tavern, sleep, quick trip to the point where we were in the dungeon. Fantastic. And so, why set up a camp system that no one will use? Dragon Age has understood its medium: the HP and abilities are recharged after each fight, because technically the only thing that prevents to do that in Baldur is that the game is boring. To go back to Baldur's system is to go back 20 years in the video game. It's as if, in a modern FPS, it was decided that the character was going to be blocked by walls of 20 cm high, or in a modern game, it was decided to slow down the combat based jet attack followed by jets defense.

Another possible solution is to prevent the player from going back; so no return to the hostel. It was the case in Grandia (which managed to generate quite cool ambiances on the camp - the impression of being really lost in the wild without being sure that we will arrive somewhere) or Icewind Dale (who was on some passages a flight ahead of the characters). In Kingmaker? The campaign whose whole principle is to upgrade the base of the characters? lol.

So basically, have to stop participating for not they implement rotten stuff 20 years old. Uh ... Bah it's done.
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