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OgreBattle
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Post by OgreBattle »

By force I'm guessing you mean power weapons?

Among numerous 'realism' flaws of a chainsword there's the problem with swinging something that is itself spinning, how delicate such mechanics would be, how the thickness of such a weapon would make for shallow cuts and etc. etc. etc. In my own not-40k I'd go with chain weapons being bulky mclarge two handed things wielded by muscly dudes and orky machines killing with as much its mass as the spinning blades.

-----

Vehicle transport article came out.

-It seems like you can assault after disembarking from any kind of transport.
-Some vehicles have high assault stats, the Harlequin transport hits on a 3+ at s5 with 3 attacks to represent the crewmen being good at fighting
- Disembarking is done before movement phase
- Embarked troops in an open topped transport can fire pistols into stuff assaulting transports (do Dark Eldar warriors carry pistols?)

Tyranid article also came out, had the datacard for the swarmlord who gets less attacks/strength/movement as he loses wounds.
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Post by Zaranthan »

FrankTrollman wrote:Now in the broader sense, differentiating between different kinds of close combat weapons is all bad.
Well, there's value in having wargear that acts as "spend an extra X points per model, get +1 Strength/-2 AP/double attacks/etc." It just needs to stay as broad categories where everybody gets the same shit. A power fist is a power klaw is a power witchblade whatever the fuck. The thing where there are very slight differences between the statlines of similar weapons from different factions needs to go.
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Post by OgreBattle »

They've removed the idea of USR, even things like "these guys come in from reserves" like deep strike will now have individual rules so trygons and blood angels angel blood marines will probably have some shared rules and something different listed on their datacard.

With that trend I expect space wolf wolf axes and space angel angel axes to have slightly different rules.

More across the board similarities though would be nice so Eldar Force Weapons don't just have totally different rules (like the lack of "Force" USR) compared to grey knight force weapons.


On differentiating weapons, I would've went with power swords giving a +1inv or some kind of other modifier for defense in melee... or just '1h power weapon is a 1h power weapon' so you're free to put axes, swords, or birds in your bad dude's hand.
Last edited by OgreBattle on Mon May 22, 2017 2:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by maglag »

Swords having the highest AP means bashees can go back to their job of slicing termies good.

Space furries already had their special snowflake power weapons, including wolf claws that were better than regular lighting claws.

There was also an article on Knights and their reaper chainsword deals 6 wounds per hit without need of any rolls. And they can pull back from melee and still shoot.

On the other hand Dark Eldar got an article and whyches will get an ability to stop enemies from just running away from melee if they fail a simple opposed roll.

Meaning that wyches can stop the massive Knight from moving!

Oh, and all genestealers getting that nifty 5+ inv save they gained on the nid cultists book. Guess people really enjoyed those. Plus getting extra attacks for big units and the not-rending of "rolling 6 for wounding means -4 AP", so the venerable all-genestealer (and broodlord that now gives +1 to hit for genestealers) army may become great again.
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Post by Voss »

Tyranid synapse also hands out 'fuck you, immune to morale, so good luck killing those hordes in any fashion.'

Also big boss critters have the Catalyst ability (May or may not be psyker power), which allows the target to move. And genestealers can charge after running. So they can literally outrun guns. 8 base + 8 (catalyst) +3.5 (advance move) + 7 (charge) + 1" engagement. If you've got some handy cultist vehicles, you can ram the vehicles into combat first, so the 'stealers don't have to suffer overwatch.

Good grounds for a contender for a 'go fuck yourself' army with blanket immunity to game mechanics and getting free buffs for just having more models.

Zaranthan wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Now in the broader sense, differentiating between different kinds of close combat weapons is all bad.
Well, there's value in having wargear that acts as "spend an extra X points per model, get +1 Strength/-2 AP/double attacks/etc." It just needs to stay as broad categories where everybody gets the same shit. A power fist is a power klaw is a power witchblade whatever the fuck. The thing where there are very slight differences between the statlines of similar weapons from different factions needs to go.
That... isn't the issue. It might well also be an issue, especially with jettisoning USRs and making everything exception based design for each individual fucking datacard, but the real issue is you pay X points for a power weapon...

... and the power weapon is based on what you stuck on the model (or sometimes what they have to be equipped with, like SM chaplains). So an axe is +1 S, -2 Ap, a mace is +2 S, -1Ap, and a sword is +0 but -3 AP. Because reasons.

And with the new 'to wound chart' and what your enemy is, this is going to vary wildly between utterly meaningless and obviously superior. Marine vs marine, an axe is +16.67% to wound but -16.67% to penetrate armor, so... go fuck yourself. But a mace is also just +16.67% to wound (except S4 vs T3) but -33% to penetrate armor, so obviously a worse choice. Conversely taking an axe against a big tyranid beastie of T6 is actually worse than taking a power sword, because they both wound on 5+, but the sword will cut armor better. (And the mace will wound on 4+ rather than 5+, but only reduce the armor save to 4+ rather than 6+)

Against orks, the obvious choice is axes, since you get the strength to wound on 3+ and the armor penetration caps out -2 because they're mostly 5+ anyway. Taking a power sword against an average ork warrior is losing out on a 'pip' for no reason.

But given the poor armor save, your big damn hero (or most especially your sergeants) may just be better off saying 'screw power weapons' and just taking a chainsword for extra attacks. A lot of the math on that will involve actual point costs, but you pretty much need to work it all out (or wait for someone else to do it) before you rebuild armies for the new edition).

Now all this math shifts again, if you've got a s3 army like guard or eldar.

tl;dr version: doing weapons this way means you win harder based on the pre-battle math vs. your potential matchups.
Last edited by Voss on Mon May 22, 2017 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by maglag »

An interesting bit about transports is that if it's destroyed, each dude inside has 1/6 chance of auto-death. That means giving your uber commander a pimp ride suddenly looks a lot less attractive.
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Post by Username17 »

Plus getting extra attacks for big units and the not-rending of "rolling 6 for wounding means -4 AP", so the venerable all-genestealer
Roll 8 armor saves at X+ and 4 armor saves at Y+ is fucking awful. That is fiddly horrible bullshit.

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Post by maglag »

99%+ of the times you don't need to roll the second set because most things in the game have 3+ or worst armor so it's fully ignored.

And most things that do have 2+ armor also have at least 5+ inv on top (cough termies) so it's not really any more fiddly than before besides a few edge cases like MANz and loyalist scum honor guards.
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Post by maglag »

New edition comes out in the 17th of June!

Starting set is Primaris Marines vs Orks Death Guard! Green is best!

Primaris Ancient... Lolwhut? They've just got out of the lab, how can any be ancient? I smell massive retcon incoming that there were primaris scum operating in secret all along

Primaris Inceptors are jet packs dual-wielding assault bolters.

Chaos Lords finally remember to dig out some Cataphractii armor from their closets.

Blight Bloat drones! Now transports with what looks like twin lascannons!

Plague cultists get their own custom awedome models too and look really happy.

Core rulebook for 60 book. If AoS is anything to go by, it's here that actual point costs will be, and the "free" rules will just contain the datasheets they've been showing us so you can only play in noob mode without said book.

Also some kind of "Index" books covering specific armies. Imperium gets 2 while Chaos gets one because fuck Chaos. Everybody else (aka Xenos) gets 2. And by that I mean 2 books for literally every other army combined. GW promises that orks and eldars and whatnot will eventually have their own books but YOU HAD ONE JOB DAMNIT!

Motherfucking wound trackers for sale too! Guess that takes care of the "but where will I get exotic dice sizes" issue. GW has you covered, probably for a premium price.

Last edited by maglag on Tue May 23, 2017 1:41 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Koumei »

I check to see if anybody even cares any more after they cut half the rules out then reduced everything else to "Whatever, a 4+ probably works" with pages of modifiers, and it turns out someone still does.
maglag wrote: Also some kind of "Index" books covering specific armies. Imperium gets 2 while Chaos gets one because fuck Chaos.
Or because there are ~16 types of Imperial army and 2 types of Chaos one (or 5 if you instead divide it by god + Undivided). Could be either one there.
GW promises that orks and eldars and whatnot will eventually have their own books but YOU HAD ONE JOB DAMNIT!
If all their stuff combined fills two books then just do that and save money that way. You know that if they have two 30-page codexindex and a 60-page index they'll price all of them at the 60-page rate.
Motherfucking wound trackers for sale too! Guess that takes care of the "but where will I get exotic dice sizes" issue. GW has you covered, probably for a premium price.
And they can go fuck themselves too. Especially when half the models in the entire game will need some kind of Wound tracker - per model because they apparently get to allocate Wounds the annoying way instead of "one complete model at a time" and no, only the big guns that aren't worth it will be dealing a bunch of Wounds and killing a terminator in one go, everything else will be chipping them off from 2/2/2/2/2 to 2/2/2/2/1 to 2/2/2/1/1 and so on. Still, I love that you're happy and excited about being able to buy a bunch of overpriced d10 from GW, apparently the only thing they can do that doesn't make you eat their shit and smile about it is write a Chaos Codex that doesn't include "Because Chaos are obviously the best, you win the game."

(And Melta Guns still aren't worth dick, oh wow, 2drop1d6 Wounds on something with 10 or more! After needing probably a 4+ or 5+ to Wound on 1d6 instead of typically a 2+ or 3+ on 2d6 added.)
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Post by Voss »

What armies are covered are literally on the books. All the SM are in one index, all the rest of the way imperium in the other. Chaos is 'three' - marines, daemons and chaos knights. The data sheets and point values are in these. Now granted, setting fire to all the 7th edition codexes needed to happen, but these should have been free PDFs.

The free core rules don't include advanced rules... So its a little more complicated than AoS. Which you is good, since that was a worthless pile of simplistic garbage that produced weird results- you could only get cover for being on top of walls, not behind them (until special wall rules were created) And anyone holding a spear horizontally rather than vertically moves further when turning in place.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Is the old wound chart really that complicated that it needed simplification?
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Post by Username17 »

OgreBattle wrote:Is the old wound chart really that complicated that it needed simplification?
The new wound chart isn't simplified, it's more complicated. Under the old system, adding +1 strength made you wound on 1 more number and subtracting 1 strength made you wound on 1 less number. In the 8th edition system, the break points are various and confusing.

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Post by Voss »

OgreBattle wrote:Is the old wound chart really that complicated that it needed simplification?
No. As frank says, it doesn't do that. But it was presented as a chart, and that inexplicably frightened people.

mostly what it does is change the math in ways people don't expect. Shooting a plasma gun at a marine is now a worse decision ( 3+ rather than 2+). And Nurgle plague marines (t5) now fear basic guardsmen more than space marines, because while both wound on 5+, there will be more guardsmen (ballpark is twice as many) and now orders are automatic, so some of those squads will also just be doubling the number of shots. So guardsmen will seriously murder Death Guard in a way that space marines can't match. So, at a cautious minimum of 60 shots from 20 guard (1 squad doubled from the order), 30 of which hit, and 10 of which wound. Meanwhile marines get 20 shots, and 13.3 hit and 4.4 wound.

And then cut those by 66% for armor saves and then reduce that result by 33% for their stupid injury rule and wow, that was a lot of dice for jack shit as a result. The guard squads will probably kill 3 and the marines about 1.

Before cover (+1 armor save) and the psychic power that inflicts a -1 to hit on people shooting at the unit, of course.

How many d6s have you got? Or, alternately an army that tells basic weapons to go fuck themselves. Spoilers: probably eldar.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Yeah I have the feeling an assload of s3 will be dominant in 8e while the middling strengths (4-6ish) either aren't strong enough or lack the sheer numbers.
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Post by maglag »

You can bet that loyalist scum will come with uber special rules which haven't been revealed yet and super cost-effective prices, so I'm not worried about guardsmen overshadowing them. Heck, I would't be admired if guard gets another price up bump in the middle of this.

Plus it depends on the cost of non-paper vehicles and other stuff that has T6+.

EDIT: Death Guard preview, and yep, disgustinly resilient needs to be rolled multiple times for multiple wound weapons. Also plague knives are re-roll 1s to wound, wonder if that's how they're gonna do poison from now on. Also some blight launchers that are 24 range S6 AP-2 inflicting 1d3 wounds.

Poxwalkers, aka nurgle cultists, are immune to morale. So much for it being uncommon. Typhus will bump their T and S by 1.

EDIT EDIT: And first rulebook leak. Something interesting is that all fliers have a minimum speed and if they exit the table count as destroyed automatically, so no more "must wait one turn outside" complications.

And all fliers can fall back from melee and still shoot. Tarpitting is dead.
Koumei wrote:I check to see if anybody even cares any more after they cut half the rules out then reduced everything else to "Whatever, a 4+ probably works" with pages of modifiers, and it turns out someone still does.
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Koumei wrote:
GW promises that orks and eldars and whatnot will eventually have their own books but YOU HAD ONE JOB DAMNIT!
If all their stuff combined fills two books then just do that and save money that way. You know that if they have two 30-page codexindex and a 60-page index they'll price all of them at the 60-page rate.
Fair enuff, at least no need to "buy"/cart half a dozen codexes around for a single army.
Koumei wrote:
Motherfucking wound trackers for sale too! Guess that takes care of the "but where will I get exotic dice sizes" issue. GW has you covered, probably for a premium price.
And they can go fuck themselves too. Especially when half the models in the entire game will need some kind of Wound tracker - per model because they apparently get to allocate Wounds the annoying way instead of "one complete model at a time" and no, only the big guns that aren't worth it will be dealing a bunch of Wounds and killing a terminator in one go, everything else will be chipping them off from 2/2/2/2/2 to 2/2/2/2/1 to 2/2/2/1/1 and so on. Still, I love that you're happy and excited about being able to buy a bunch of overpriced d10 from GW, apparently the only thing they can do that doesn't make you eat their shit and smile about it is write a Chaos Codex that doesn't include "Because Chaos are obviously the best, you win the game."
I was actually being completely ironic with that one, but meh. I completely agree they can go fuck themselves about motherfucking wound markers. I already have plenty of exotic dice and counters and chump change or just paper+pencil in a pinch to track wounds (or HP in D&D).
Koumei wrote: (And Melta Guns still aren't worth dick, oh wow, 2drop1d6 Wounds on something with 10 or more! After needing probably a 4+ or 5+ to Wound on 1d6 instead of typically a 2+ or 3+ on 2d6 added.)
There's literally nothing previewed so far that a melta would wound on a 5+. Even the Imperial Knight only has T8. And the melta fully ignores power armor (which is also what heavy vehicles seem all to have now) whereas lascannons don't anymore. Most things will be wounded on a 3+, from dreads down, whereas marines and humies still melt on a 2+.

Mind you, meltas needed some nerf since they were being spammed silly. Fire Dragons remained one of the most used eldar units through pretty much every edition they existed on, and the only combi-weapon that really counted was the multi-melta.
Last edited by maglag on Tue May 23, 2017 11:06 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by Voss »

Something interesting is that all fliers have a minimum speed and if they exit the table count as destroyed automatically, so no more "must wait one turn outside" complications.
Pretty meaningless, unless there is some restriction on turning hiding somewhere that isn't the movement rules. Move in any direction and 'flyers ignore everything' means if you slip off the table, you're a damn moron.
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Post by Username17 »

OgreBattle wrote:Yeah I have the feeling an assload of s3 will be dominant in 8e while the middling strengths (4-6ish) either aren't strong enough or lack the sheer numbers.
Strength 6 is literally exactly the same as Strength 7 unless the target has a Toughness of exactly 6 or 7. Against T6, S6 is 3/4 as effective as S7 and against T7, S6 is 2/3 as effective. Against all other targets, S6 is 100% as effective. This means that an Assault Cannon (S6, 3 Shots) is always at least as good as an Autocannon (S7, 2 shots). It has the same average impact against T7 targets, is 12.5% more effective against T6 targets, and is 50% more effective against all other targets.

Image

But of course against high toughness things, S6 or even S8 is only 2-4 times better than S3.

Lets consider the Leman Russ. It is T8, has 12 Wounds, and has a 3+ Save. The Battle Cannon has a d6 shots and is S8, -2 AP, and does a D3 wounds per hit. So let's compare the Battle Cannon versus Lasguns against another Leman Russ tank. Lasguns wound on a 6, and penetrate armor on a 1-2, for one wound each. It takes 216 Lasgun hits to kill a Leman Russ. Battle Cannons on the other hand, hit a d6 times for a d3 wounds per hit, wound on a 4+ and penetrate armor on a 1-4. That's 5.14 hits from the Battle Cannon to take out a Leman Russ tank.

Now obviously 5.14 is a lot less than 216. The real question is whether the Leman Russ is going to cost more than 41 times as much as the Guardsmen. Or if the Guardsmen are going to be less than one twentieth the cost of the Leman Russ and reliably be allowed to double fire their lasguns. If that is true, it might actually be cost effective to fight the toughest things in the game with simple massed lasgun fire.

In either case however, the slog of die rolling is going to be brutal. I don't know how many to-hit rolls you're going to have to make with battle cannons or if you're going to have to roll them at all, but even just rolling the Heavy D6, the SvT, the Armor Saves, and the Damage Rolls, it's going to take an average of 39 die rolls to blow up a single enemy tank with one of the largest weapons in the game. That's nuts. If you have to make 4+ to-hit rolls on top of that, the number of die rolls goes to 80. Seriously. Eighty fucking d6 rolls, and a lot of the time you're going to be rolling those fucking things one by one.

Simplification this ain't.

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Post by maglag »

Frank, rolling 80+ dice is what your average assault unit has been doing for years. Even in 3rd edition a spech merine assault squad would be having 30 attacks on the charge, meaning 30 possible to-wounds and 30-possible armor saves and maybe re-rolls to hit for good measure, and your sergeant probably had a power weapon or some shit that had to be tracked in separate. If you play orks you'll consider yourself lucky for rolling only 80 dice for an unit in a phase.

But just rolling dice isn't that complicated. For the new Leman Russ the only one that needs to be rolled alone is the number of attacks, then you can roll to-hit, to-wound and armor saves. Without pausing for re-rolls or scatter or placing templates and arguing if it's nicking more the side or front armor. Just pick the succeses at each step and roll them for the next batch, done.
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Post by Voss »

maglag wrote: Primaris Ancient... Lolwhut? They've just got out of the lab, how can any be ancient? I smell massive retcon incoming that there were primaris scum operating in secret all along
Nope. 'ancient' is weird military terminology for banner bearer. It's come up in 40k before, but it is a really weird and obscure term to throw around.
Primaris Inceptors are jet packs dual-wielding assault bolters.
Deployed from orbit. :rofl:
Presumably the gun shields protect them from re-entry.

Plague cultists get their own custom awedome models too and look really happy.
They're based on really old nurgle art- the carnival and the happy 'Uncle Nurgle' thing. They're nice from that perspective, but they clash a bit with the very busy Death Guard models (which, given the Legion's nature and background, should be simpler in armor design)
Core rulebook for 60 book. If AoS is anything to go by, it's here that actual point costs will be, and the "free" rules will just contain the datasheets they've been showing us so you can only play in noob mode without said book.
Points (and the rules that don't fit on the useless datacards) will be in the indices.
Also some kind of "Index" books covering specific armies. Imperium gets 2 while Chaos gets one because fuck Chaos. Everybody else (aka Xenos) gets 2. And by that I mean 2 books for literally every other army combined. GW promises that orks and eldars and whatnot will eventually have their own books but YOU HAD ONE JOB DAMNIT!
No idea what you're freaking about here.
It's clear what is going on, and these will (unfortunately) be replaced by individual codexes in the future. Savor these, because they represent 8th edition at its most balanced. (Though they should just be pdfs)

Anyway (from the picture in the big announcement post)
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netd ... readv2.jpg

Imperium Index 1: Space Marines, Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Woofs, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, Legion of the Damned

Imperium 2: Guard, AdMech, Knights, 'Imperial Agents,' 'Talons of the Emperor' (no idea what that last is)

Index: Chaos- Heretic Astartes (Name change for the name gods!), chaos daemons, 'Questor Traitoris (Chaos Knights)

Index Xenos 1- Eldar, darker eldar, wacky new eldar, clown eldar, Necrons.

Index Xenos 2: Orks, Tau with extra apostrophe, Bugs, Specific Bug Cults
Last edited by Voss on Wed May 24, 2017 11:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Koumei »

We've always been rolling a fucktonne of dice, therefore we should keep doing it now! Just like slavery, Constitution scores in D&D, genocide and child labour, it's an important tradition that we need to retain.
Voss wrote:Presumably the gun shields protect them from re-entry.
It wouldn't be so bad if they said that in the books. Going back to lore that sometimes wandered into "retarded" territory would be welcome.
they clash a bit with the very busy Death Guard models (which, given the Legion's nature and background, should be simpler in armor design)
We could all see this coming, but I hate how busy and cluttered the Death Guard are. I mean, never mind that apparently even the armour gets pox and all, I mean, plasteel is known for its genetic weakness in regards to dysentery. Even if we accept that, they cover their shoulders and heads and backpacks with trinkets and enormous spiked growths, they carry axes and guns that look like ork weapons, they just carry bits and bobbins... it's a mess. Reminds me of the AoS knights that are just a mess of spikes pointing in various directions with no sense of aesthetic style.
Imperium 2: Guard, AdMech, Knights, 'Imperial Agents,' 'Talons of the Emperor' (no idea what that last is)
That's the Adepts of Custard and the Sisters of Silence.
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Post by DSMatticus »

Zaranthan wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Now in the broader sense, differentiating between different kinds of close combat weapons is all bad.
Well, there's value in having wargear that acts as "spend an extra X points per model, get +1 Strength/-2 AP/double attacks/etc." It just needs to stay as broad categories where everybody gets the same shit. A power fist is a power klaw is a power witchblade whatever the fuck. The thing where there are very slight differences between the statlines of similar weapons from different factions needs to go.
I know this has come up before, but WH40K and Shadowrun have both always made me wonder "what is the correct amount of customization and gear shopping?" It's obviously a big draw of both systems, thugh WH40K is also a competitive game - both standardization and simplicity make the game more accessible, and you should probably have the former even if you think the latter costs the game too much of its appeal.
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Post by Voss »

Broad categories, especially with the wildness of actual sculpts. Power weapons as a category is fine, having to fiddle with conversion work to get the right exact type of power weapon (knowing that it may well screw you against the next army you face) is seriously not fine.

No, not even when you use magnets to change weapon options.

So you could have normal weapons, fast weapons, power weapons and fuck off weapons (power fists and claws and thunder hammers) , but that's really the point you stop.
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Post by OgreBattle »

"what is the correct amount of customization and gear shopping?"
For an individual PC the FFT equipment and skills screen is my preference:
Image

Though I'd fold helmet/armor into one slot and have more open for boosting items.

For a skirmish squad game Mordheim/Necromunda is about as fiddly as I want it to get.

For a wargame with tanks and platoons and mega-units, Epic 40k abstracts it nicely
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Post by Voss »

Voss wrote: [quote="Koumei]Imperium 2: Guard, AdMech, Knights, 'Imperial Agents,' 'Talons of the Emperor' (no idea what that last is)
That's the Adepts of Custard and the Sisters of Silence.[/quote]

Oh, right. That's what they named that boxed set when they repackaged the two squads from the Burning of Prospero boardgame, the dread from Calth, tossed in a rhino and land raider, and charged more than the actual game.
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