Pathfinder Is Still Bad

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Slade
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Post by Slade »

Voss wrote:I have no idea you think paizo would be aiming to model any of those cases. Or that they'd be able to even if they wanted to.

There are at least a half dozen ways of getting swarms already in the rule set. It isn't even a high level thing for the most part, and often fuck off useless once you move past bandits and orcs., as even minimal AOE takes care of a lot.


The little ensemble cast is handled by pack lords and brood master summoners
True, but as a familiar the damage goes up based on your Familiar (Druid) level.
People are having a shit fest due to the rules on the forums someone pointed out there that Swarms deal each time they end their move.
So in theory, they deal twice/rd, technically since everyone can make 2 move action.

I think they could do this in 3.5 too, but I doubt anyone did this.
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Judging__Eagle
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Post by Judging__Eagle »

Kaelik wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Whipstitch wrote:[..]Goblin Elites so that they come with legit gear like chain shirts, a bandolier full of acid flasks and a warg mount to kite you[..]
At that point you're starting to stray away from the assertion that it's super-easy to add a few goblins to any encounter to challenge PCs, though.

It's not that it's easy to add goblins because they are CR 1/4. It's easier to add additional enemies period, and you can add a few of whatever is balanced to be an extremely minor threat but still take up time, actions, and resources to kill while posing a minor but not insignificant threat.
Emphasis mine on why adding more monsters is still an increased challenge, while players aren't often fazed at the prospect of more enemies showing up; they often are when they can't understand why they can't make a dent in a creature. Perhaps they might be upset that they might have mistaken the tactical situation, but seldom will they be feeling the same loss of agency as obvious encounter juryrigging.

Giving monsters "more" HP is always less satisfying for players than just adding some more "surprise" monsters.

And the only "problem" with the PCs fighting an EL 12 encounter instead of an EL 10 encounter is that they feel like more of a badass after having a more engaging combat.
This. The most memorable encounters my players recall are the ones where the players tried and were stymied individually; but succeeded as a team.

Ideally, each player will timorously ask the referee if they could possibly beat the encounter; and be assured that they can, but only if they work cooperatively.

Of course, knowing more about the PCs, than the Players, helps a lot with gauging whether or not an encounter is going to overpower the PCs or not.

While on the other hand, the worst encounter resolutions tend to occur when the referee has no idea what a PC is capable of, and thus are totally surprised at what the PCs accomplish.
Last edited by Judging__Eagle on Wed May 03, 2017 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rawbeard
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Post by Rawbeard »

Slade wrote:One of choices is cats. You can be a crazy cat lady with a swarm of cats.
sold!
Last edited by Rawbeard on Thu May 04, 2017 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Slade »

So new FAQ:
We are back in 3.0 D&D land, bows do nothing, only arrows matter.
Apparently, it was always supposed to be this way. :rofl:

I love revisionist history.

Basically, the enhancement of arrows determine their new DR rule (+3 cold iron or silver, +4 is adamantine, etc)

The bow only grants higher hit/dam if enhancement higher.
Hard to tell if Paizo finally realized how good archers have it or if this is just a random idea they had.
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Post by Voss »

Is this a real FAQ or just a PF society thing? A link would help.

I wouldn't say bows do nothing either. They just don't circumvent material DR for having more pluses. If you have silver/cold iron/ whatever arrows, you won't notice any difference.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

Voss wrote:Is this a real FAQ or just a PF society thing? A link would help.

I wouldn't say bows do nothing either. They just don't circumvent material DR for having more pluses. If you have silver/cold iron/ whatever arrows, you won't notice any difference.
Yeah, this seems to have . . . no affect. I guess it's a slight nerf for archers who have to pay slightly more for their non magical arrows if they had a +3-4 bow, but like, who cares?

If you are buying +4 arrows to bypass adamntium, and +3 to bypass cold iron when you could have just bought cold iron and adamntium arrows and pulled out the right ones, then you were already a sucker.
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Post by erik »

Slade wrote:So new FAQ:
We are back in 3.0 D&D land, bows do nothing, only arrows matter.
Apparently, it was always supposed to be this way. :rofl:

I love revisionist history.
It's weird that you specifically call out 3.0, since in that edition bows and arrows had enhancement bonuses stack. That was like the tru-archer edition.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I never realized it was supposed to be different, my group's been playing like that for years. Weapon blanch is cheap and you can treat a lot of arrows, the fact it only works for one hit is less relevant when it comes to ammo.
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Post by GâtFromKI »

Slade wrote:Basically, the enhancement of arrows determine their new DR rule (+3 cold iron or silver, +4 is adamantine, etc)

The bow only grants higher hit/dam if enhancement higher.
Oh yeah.

Because when you can afford a +4 bow (at least 32kgp), what you absolutely want is to maintain a precise accountancy of every fuckin' 1 pa cold iron arrow you have ever found. You know, fuuuuuuun.

The person who wrote this faq is stupid and he should feel stupid.
Last edited by GâtFromKI on Fri May 26, 2017 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I just want to say I'm irritated that Starfinder's Drift looks very close to my FTL house rules for my homebrew. It's different enough that I wouldn't have any claim (Also I'm not a lawyer but I'm assuming the fact I released it for free publicly means I wouldn't get squat even if I could prove they ripped me off), but that irritates me. I've made peace with the fact I'm a shit writer and shit game designer, it just annoys me that I either get ignored or called an autistic faggot but stuff I write is somehow good enough to make money from.

I'm probably being a bitch, but this isn't the first time Paizo has released something that looked suspiciously close to something I wrote for my home game.
Last edited by Count Arioch the 28th on Thu Jun 08, 2017 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mask_De_H »

Monkeys on typewriters, Count.
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Post by OgreBattle »

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:I just want to say I'm irritated that Starfinder's Drift looks very close to my FTL house rules for my homebrew. It's different enough that I wouldn't have any claim (Also I'm not a lawyer but I'm assuming the fact I released it for free publicly means I wouldn't get squat even if I could prove they ripped me off), but that irritates me. I've made peace with the fact I'm a shit writer and shit game designer, it just annoys me that I either get ignored or called an autistic faggot but stuff I write is somehow good enough to make money from.

I'm probably being a bitch, but this isn't the first time Paizo has released something that looked suspiciously close to something I wrote for my home game.
Was your FTL travel the one where it's like an aether atmosphere starships fly through?
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Count Arioch the 28th
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

Mask_De_H wrote:Monkeys on typewriters, Count.
That is more than likely the case.
Ogrebattle wrote:Was your FTL travel the one where it's like an aether atmosphere starships fly through?
Eh, kind of. I had two methods of FTL, one was safe but only could travel to worlds with intelligent beings (the astral), a second that could go anywhere regardless of whether the planet was inhabited or not but was dangerous, you could use it for exploration but you have the real chance to be all Event Horizon when you got back (the astral). Starfinder looks to have mashed them together into one, and replaced "intelligent beings" with "drift beacons". The fact that there are pockets of different planes in "the drift" is similar to the face that everything had an echo in the astral, many species actually had stations and docks and whatnot to accept travelers (each of the Pathfinder planes was a planetary system, the Atral around the Baatorian Empire would have similar conditions to Baator itself, the Astral near the Abyssal Hegemony would resemble Abyssal planets, etc).

Again, more than likely monkeys on typewriters but I don't feel I should spend money on stuff so shitty I could have written it.
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Post by Slade »

So looks Starfinder has removed additional attacks by BAB, everyone can have 2 attacks (starting at first level) with a penalty.
Can get more through Rapid shot feat, etc., but Haste just lowers penalty when taking an additional attack.
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Post by Voss »

So rather than keep talking about it in the 5e thread, I thought I'd move it here:

the early copies of Ultimate Wilderness are off in the hands of some people because of whatever fucked up way Paizo does shipping and subscriptions.

And the Shifter class is apparently even more fucking terrible than even Paizo fanatics were expected.

It's basically a hybrid druid/monk with no spellcasting or animal companion and instead claws at level one (that ramp up to maybe 1d10/x3 by 20th), and gets an AC bonus (and only an AC bonus from Wis)... and wants dex to have a real AC because armor is pretty much entirely out, and strength for damage, and con because it's a front line fucker with shitty AC.

Oh. Worse AC than I thought. +Wis with no armor, + half your wis bonus in druid armor types (and you can't wear other types)

Good things?- full bab, claws eventually get to ignore DR for no apparent reason, even eventually DR /- and /epic (at 20th)

It eventually gets a vague form of wild shape that's... worse than druid wildshape, and animal aspects that are worse than the hunter. No elemental forms and you have to pick your animal aspect and can only transform into that specific type of animal.

To quote the summary of its shapeshifting abilities:
It gets to choose a limited number of aspects with minor and major forms. At 1st level, it gets to take on aspects for a number of minutes per day. At 4th level it gets wildshape but only for its chosen aspects. As it gains levels, more aspects are granted.
Yay? No, that noise in the background is jeering.

There are archetypes that change things up, including an ooze based one that sounds absolutely terrible (wildshape into humanoid form for a limited time per day, no magic item use at all for the first several levels)

Basically this is a class that no one asked for, presented as a pure shapeshifter to shift another terrible splat that people would buy unseen thanks to the subscription service and preorders.


Archetypes for other classes are the usual assortment of dogshit
Here's rogue:
Desert raider: lose trapfinding, trap sense, and one talent; gain immunity to dazzled, the ability to hide in plain sight in bright light as a -5 penalty (but not against creatures immune to blinded/dazzled), and a Perception bonus to avoid being surprised.

- River rat: lose trapfinding and trap sense; gain a bonus on Swim checks, ignore difficult terrain caused by "light undergrowth and shallow bogs", and gain a bonus on saves vs disease and poison.

- Sly saboteur: Lose trap sense, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge; gain increasing amount of normal movements in difficult terrain (including 5-foot steps), and the ability to rig mundane devices to fail and deal sneak attack damage, and to rig magic items to fail as extremely complex mundane devices and deal untyped magic sneak attack damage.

- Sylvan trickster: Lose trapfinding, uncanny dodge, and improved uncanny dodge; gain wild empathy, the ability to pick witch hexes instead of rogue talents (including major hexes eventually!), resist nature's lure, and DR/cold iron.
The last one seems the only one even vaguely usable. Because really, immunity to dazzled?
Last edited by Voss on Sun Nov 05, 2017 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by saithorthepyro »

I was already feeling like Ultimate Wilderness was going to suck as soon as I heard about the lack of full transformation and the focus on claws, so this is really just confirmation on top of it all. Why a class that is supposed to be a shapeshifter somehow has a worse Wildshape than a Druid is something I will never get.

Those archetypes also seem like terrible ideas that have no idea what makes a good archetype. At this point the majority of them are crappy abilities limited by Paizo's lack of imagination of what to do with the concept.

I imagine the rest is all terrible, including the part about using magic plants to make potions and so on. I also heard that this book is very heavy on the reprinted material as well.

Overall this just makes me want to stick more to Spheres/DSP and other third-party products and as far away from Paizo as possible.
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Post by Archmage Joda »

Ugh, that shapeshifter class just makes me angry. I want to play a shapeshifter, but all the paizo options for that just seem determined to suck goat anus, so I can't get my shapeshifter werewolf/beast boy/prototype/whatever on in pathfinder, because fuck me, I guess.
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Post by Voss »

Archmage Joda wrote:Ugh, that shapeshifter class just makes me angry. I want to play a shapeshifter, but all the paizo options for that just seem determined to suck goat anus, so I can't get my shapeshifter werewolf/beast boy/prototype/whatever on in pathfinder, because fuck me, I guess.
That's the part I don't get. A 'shifter' class didn't even have to be powerful, especially compared to the giant pile of shit melee options they've already got. It just needed to hit the flavor button, transform into something big and furry at level 1, and have the capability to fucking eat people.

And probably do a lot of naturey things as a side bonus like the ranger, some decent skill options and maybe some status effects from roaring and growling. Fur like armor, claws like swords, and you're pretty much done.

Maybe some magic rituals with woad tattoos to imbue claws and fur with level appropriate magic weapon/armor bonuses, and you've got Naked <Whatever> Who Beasts Out.

Any idiot could Frankenstein this class from existing class/archetype abilities (the sheer number of existing 'claw' people is pretty disturbing, especially since it's often on spellcasters), but somehow the 'professional designers' at Paizo were too busy dog fucking to do it right.
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Post by saithorthepyro »

Yeah, pretty much. It's not even that it mechanically fails, but it straight up fails at the very concept right out of the gate. At least out of the gate the Fighter swing s a sword, the Barbarian rages, the Wizard casts magic, the Rogue sneaks and disables traps, the Paladin smites evil, etc. The Shifter on the other hand, gets chicken hands. It's almost like it was designed to fail at start.

Also, if we're carrying over the issues of Starfinder over from the other thread as well, apparently there's no listed price or stats for the generators you use to recharge powered equipment. So the only way to charge your gear is an armor add-on that gives you some charge for ten minutes of moving around.
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Post by Mord »

Archmage Joda wrote:Ugh, that shapeshifter class just makes me angry. I want to play a shapeshifter, but all the paizo options for that just seem determined to suck goat anus, so I can't get my shapeshifter werewolf/beast boy/prototype/whatever on in pathfinder, because fuck me, I guess.
Is there a reason the plain-Jane Druid doesn't scratch that itch? :confused:
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Post by MisterDee »

Voss wrote:
The last one seems the only one even vaguely usable. Because really, immunity to dazzled?
Well, it loses trap sense and trapfinding. That's about as useful as being immune to dazzled. :) And the loss of a single rogue talent for pretty much anything is usually worth it since there're so few talents that aren't utter shit. I think it's probably a slight upgrade to the utterly unplayable rogue overall. Nowhere near enough to make it playable, but still...

As to the Sylvan Trickster, unless there's some restriction on the use of hexes that the witch doesn't have to deal with, it's a signficant power upgrade (plus it's another way to give somebody hexes, unlocking more dumb-as-fuck builds to annoy people with.)
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Post by saithorthepyro »

Mord wrote:
Archmage Joda wrote:Ugh, that shapeshifter class just makes me angry. I want to play a shapeshifter, but all the paizo options for that just seem determined to suck goat anus, so I can't get my shapeshifter werewolf/beast boy/prototype/whatever on in pathfinder, because fuck me, I guess.
Is there a reason the plain-Jane Druid doesn't scratch that itch? :confused:
Well, first the Druid's wildshape doesn't come on till level 4, is limited in it's number of uses, and while I can't speak of any mechanical issues besides that (I'm sure there are some which people in this forum can talk about), some people want to just play a person who can change into an animal without the other druid features. Also because outside of Wild Shape, a Druid is a squishy frontliner. Which the new shifter is as well apparently.
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Post by Voss »

saithorthepyro wrote: Also, if we're carrying over the issues of Starfinder over from the other thread as well, apparently there's no listed price or stats for the generators you use to recharge powered equipment. So the only way to charge your gear is an armor add-on that gives you some charge for ten minutes of moving around.
Might as well, it certainly isn't worth talking about on its own.

I believe there is some sort of errata for that, but it might well be the 'Starfinder Society' errata, because obviously the organized play group needs different rules on how to play the game.

I think there is also a recharge fee for charging batteries on stations hiding somewhere in the rules.

But really it's another genre emulation fail- like weapons, you're going to be looting corpses for battery charges like it's 1980 and you're playing Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.

I find it amusing that Starfinder basically fails at _everything_ in genre
You want a signature weapon like Han Solo? Nope.
You want a heirloom weapon like Luke? Nope.
You want standard issue weapons like Star Fleet? Nope.
Get your drops from mobs like a good Diablo grinder.

It's the wacky gamist crap like 4e D&D, where everything is leveled to the party and you can't interact with the world outside the numbers game.


@Mord- Don't know about Joda, but yeah, it doesn't at all. Between the shitty rules for wild shape, wild shape not kicking in for a while, restricted to crappy animals through a 'beast shape' hack and limited times per day... the druid is a totally different beast. Druids are full casters with a wacky utility ability that happens to be animal/elemental transformation (and their other pile of utility abilities, and their pokemon)

In terms of optimization it's obviously better, but 'Why not druid?' is more a tribute to how fucking ridiculous the druid class is.
Last edited by Voss on Sun Nov 05, 2017 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by saithorthepyro »

Voss wrote:
saithorthepyro wrote: Also, if we're carrying over the issues of Starfinder over from the other thread as well, apparently there's no listed price or stats for the generators you use to recharge powered equipment. So the only way to charge your gear is an armor add-on that gives you some charge for ten minutes of moving around.
Might as well, it certainly isn't worth talking about on its own.

I believe there is some sort of errata for that, but it might well be the 'Starfinder Society' errata, because obviously the organized play group needs different rules on how to play the game.

I think there is also a recharge fee for charging batteries on stations hiding somewhere in the rules.

But really it's another genre emulation fail- like weapons, you're going to be looting corpses for battery charges like it's 1980 and you're playing Expedition to the Barrier Peaks.

I find it amusing that Starfinder basically fails at _everything_ in genre
You want a signature weapon like Han Solo? Nope.
You want a heirloom weapon like Luke? Nope.
You want standard issue weapons like Star Fleet? Nope.
Get your drops from mobs like a good Diablo grinder.

It's the wacky gamist crap like 4e D&D, where everything is leveled to the party and you can't interact with the world outside the numbers game.
Yeah. Sometimes you can do things for the balance of the game but not have in-universe justification for it, but not on the level this game does it. It's video game logic taken to an extreme.

A personal issue I have is the feeling of a lack of equipment as well, outside of the countless variants of the same armor/gun created because of the leveled equipment BS. I know that equipment bloat s a problem a lot of people have but I'm a fan of the varied equipment lists from games like Eclipse Phase, Shadowrun, and the 40k RPGs, and this one just feels lacking, especially in items like Magic Items, mods for weapons, magic-tech combined items, and augments. What is there is generic stuff, nothing that really stands out really.

The lack of non-combat interaction is even more of a knock against it, because in Sci-Fi that is such an important element. Exploration, interacting with alien cultures and civilizations, etc. Instead we got a mostly combat simulator, and a pretty bad one at that. Maximum optimal range of 60' on a blasted laser rifle? Are you kidding me?

I have no idea if it's going to have any staying party, the only evidence I have is mythweavers, which two months after launch has one game advertising.
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Post by Voss »

Staying power is an interesting question (and something Paizo themselves doubt, given both the thinner release schedule and comments the developers made on their own forums)

On the one hand it shouldn't, but on the other hand Paizo breeds fanatics, and there isn't exactly anyone challenging them over market share.


--
As to equipment... I hate every part of it, the ilevels, the absurd prices, the pure junk that populates the list and even the way they organized the six pages of weapon charts. Organizing weapons by Cryo, Flame, Plasma and Uncategorized makes me want to punch someone in the face. And that's just the section for Two-handed Advanced melee weapons.

Why would they not organize weapons by level, and instead go with damage type, except NOT slashing, bludgeoning and piercing? What the actual hell?
Last edited by Voss on Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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