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Voss
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Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

How did that turn into a marketing strategy? The rip offs, sorry, the 'unseen' were largely terrible designs (game wise) and complete different sets of aesthetics from the usual battle tech trash.
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OgreBattle
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

speaking of mecha games, Dual Gear is made by an indie Thai studio in the tradition of Front Mission:

http://www.dualgeargame.com/


Big indie games event coming up in Kyoto:
http://bitsummit.org/2017/
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maglag
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That was an epic ass though.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
How did that turn into a marketing strategy? The rip offs, sorry, the 'unseen' were largely terrible designs (game wise) and complete different sets of aesthetics from the usual battle tech trash.

a.) no, in the CBT Boardgame, the designs are actually pretty good for the most part, if you know your way around the rules and how to play around the built in weaknesses, as far as they may be there.

b.) yes, and people LOVE the unseen for their aesthetics, as they are pretty dissimilar to the usual battle tech trash. They come from Macross, Crusher Joe and Fang of the Sun Dougram. Highly watchable Mecha Anime Series with very good technical designs.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stahlseele wrote:
Voss wrote:
How did that turn into a marketing strategy? The rip offs, sorry, the 'unseen' were largely terrible designs (game wise) and complete different sets of aesthetics from the usual battle tech trash.

a.) no, in the CBT Boardgame, the designs are actually pretty good for the most part, if you know your way around the rules and how to play around the built in weaknesses, as far as they may be there.
.

Sure. Rip out the largely terrible weapon loadouts, add armor, heat sinks. Or in the case of the shadowhawk, give it functional weapons.

The wolverine and archer were pretty much the standout designs of the bunch, though the archer suffered from too little ammo.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Fri May 19, 2017 8:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

They all suffered from some flaws one way or another, that was part of the gamebalance back then, not like the later designs that can do everything . .

Still, the Archer for example carried enough ammo to ruin some mechs entirely, if you actually got the god damn things to hit and your dice did not play snake eyes with you all the time.
The Griffin with the LRM10 and PPC and Medium Laser and Jumpjets was a mobile firesupport platform.
The Phoenix Hawk had the Large Laser for ranged combat and then the mediums and MGs for close combat stuff.
Same for the Warhammer, as long as you did not alphastrike with these designs but held to the designed range bands, you could keep up a pretty withering ammount of fire on target.
And yeah, the shadowhawk . . a buddy of mine swears by it, i never understood that one.
The Wolverine was thoroughly mediocre, but at least it was semi mobile and could take some hits and do damage at most ranges reliably.
The Marauder is basically equipped with redundant weapons, because you can only ever fire one arm without overheating completely. In the fluff it is always written that most pilots fire left, right, left, right to keep the mech cool and balanced, but that does not work in the game at all.
The Locust is still one of the fastest mech designs out there and can do some hillariously bullshit things if you roll well.
The Crusader is, still to this day, considered one of the best mechs in its weight class.
The Battlemaster has always been a monster, but that is no big surprise seeing how it is an assault class mech.
The Grand Crusader i will admit i never ever actually have seen ANYWHERE.
The Jenner is a very good Mech as well, even if it is fugly as sin.
The Rifleman is . . pretty much like the marauder, redundant arrays of weaponry and way too thinly armored, but get a good shooter in the cockpit and watch it pick enemies apart at long range.
The Stinger is a typical scout mech, armed just enough to try and deter light forces from engaging. But with the jumpjets still a nuisance to deal with.
The scorpion . . well, let us be honest, there are really no good quadruped mechs so no big surprise here.
The Thunderbolt is still to this day one of my favourite mechs. I start every match by getting rid of all the MG and SRM ammo and then the Large Laser and LRM are perfect for longrange and later the large laser and the medium lasers for when it gets personal. Also, not that much LRM ammo either, so once it is gone, there is nothing that will explode anymore. And it is armored well enough to get into slugging matches.
The Valkyrie is kinda same ish to the Phoenix-Hawk. I never really liked it.
Wasp is basically the same as the Stinger, so eh.
Pretty sure i am forgetting some designs here, and let us mercifully lay the blanket of not talking about it over the LAMs
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tussock
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The basic problem with Battletech PC games is they ask you to destroy rather large numbers of Mechs with yourself and maybe a couple AI-stupid buddies.

Obvously a weapon loadout designed to disable one Mech before it gets into useful range and then you go re-arm cannot work, nor can most of the auto-cannons with their superior short-term damage output that often can't finish the job if there's more than one target.

The tabletop was designed that Mechs get used up and you need an energy weapon guy with some redundant weapons for after the missles have taken out an arm and a leg to still be holding an objective point because it still has a large laser that works and enough heat sinks to tell your mostly empty mechs with maybe a light laser backup to fuck off.


But when you play Battletech PC games, you need a bunch of long range energy weapons with enough heat sinks to just constantly fire them all, or you can't win, depending how many times they let you reload big stacks of missiles.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Fucking tussock.

No. Just... no.

1) there are no AI buddies. Basic set up is running a lance against another lance. Since the campaign is about building up a Merc company, presumably you eventually get to field multiple lances.

2) like the tabletop game, there aren't objectives to hold or anything like one. The game was not designed with objectives in mind, and I have no idea where you got that from. The original game was designed as a battle arena, with something vaguely like a campaign system in skill ups for pilots (and a lot of handwaving).

3) if you watch... literally any of the videos, the matches are won based on missiles (and stupid decisions).



4) Most battletech PC games have just been about being better than the AI (not hard, often cheesable by sniping from beyond their engagement range) and redesigning mechs not to suck (which is also easy, as mech designs weren't created with game balance in mind).
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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Anyone know minecraft? How do I mod this crap, every online guide assumes I know more than I do.

Specifically, I'm trying to download Biomes O'Plenty for 1.11.2. Can someone explain how to install it in a way that an idiot would understand?
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Hadanelith
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 6:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's actually pretty simple now, as I understand it. Download the Curse Launcher, link it to your MC account, and use that to download the mod. Curse Launcher should auto install Forge and get mods working. This is my understanding of how it works now; I haven't actually dealt with mod installation since 1.7.10.
Also: just the one mod? Biomes O Plenty is pretty solid as a mod, sure, but it doesn't really add *that* much content. Curse Launcher gives you access to a lot of modpacks. Skyfactory is a good one to start with, if you're new to MC modding (it doesn't include a bunch of difficulty increasing mods).
If you're willing to go back a few versions, Agrarian Skies is an excellent way to learn a bunch of mods. And if you're lost, PurpleMentat's Youtube series of tutorials on AgSkies will explain how to play those mods in detail.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

@Tussock
You are getting BATTLETECH Mixed up with MECHWARRIOR.
BATTLETECH is the Stragety/Tactics Game. MECHWARRIOR is the RPG/Mech-Sim/Ego-Shooter.
And yes, for the Mech-Sim/Shooter you are absolutely correct. Mostly because they take a top down round based strategy tactics wargame and translate it into a real time ego perspektive Vehicle Shooter Sim.
Compare to the Space Marine Game instead of the WH40K Board-Game.

Battletech has one 100% faithful to the rules version for computers, that is called MegaMek.
And then there is MechCommander, which is kinda sorta an attempt to keep the game as close to the CBT playstyle as possible while also making it real time strategy, instead of round based.
This new Battletech Game is again going to be round based instead of realtime.
For realtime you have *cough hack*MWO*gag* and appearantly by the same assholes that made MWO the failure it is today an upcoming Mechwarrior Mercenaries 5.
Otherwise, you have the Crysis Wars Mod MWLL, which is actually better than MWO and offers a combined arms game with sadly a very limited PlayerBase <.<


@Count
Usually, you either do it the Way Hadanelith just described or you download the mod and place it in the Minecraft Mods folder, which is hidden somewhere in the %USER%APPDATA/.minecraft or some shit like that.
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Whipstitch
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Laser boating was way overrated in all but the most overpopulated solo Mechwarrior maps anyway, which is arguably a case of working as intended. More typically the biggest problem with ammo conservation was the way the games rewarded players for biasing all of your lance's firepower towards utterly dominating at a specific range instead of swapping between different weapons at various ranges like default loadouts implied you should be doing. That is, if you have a lance loaded to the gills with LRMs and Gauss Rifles, you're pretty unlikely to have any one single mech run completely dry because unless you split up like a bunch of morons you should all be concentrating fire and the ammo burden gets distributed fairly evenly. However, stick a stereotypical Catapult into a lance filled with closet ogres and you can expect them to run out of LRMs as they soften every target while the guys armed with LB-X AC-20s scratch their balls waiting for things to get into range or ping away with whatever large lasers you could afford to run without heatsinks.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Some of the most effective CBT MechDesigns are LaserBoats.
Sadly, they got THAT part right in the Computer-Games <.<
Lasers are just ton for ton the most effective weapon.
Simpl< because there is no ammo that can run out or explode and also in the hands of a skilled shot a laser will hit . . like . . well, a laser actually.
No time delay in shot and impact, so 100% accuracy. Basic Point and click. Where even with lock on missles you STILL need to lead shots and aim up to get over obstacles.
And ACs deal with bullet drop as well and spread the damage out too much, where energy weapons like lasers, just deal all of their alpha to one single location. Perfect for decapitating Mechs.
Or slicing off weapons/arms/legs to take an enemy out of the fight fast and easy.
In the Mechwarrior Games Gauss-Rifles are technically the only superior weapon to energy weapons, because they are just as accurate, deal just as much damage to single locations, create no heat and have no explodey ammo. But the ammo can still run out. And then it becomes a 15t paperweight. It just sucks if your main armament suddenly runs out of Ammo and stops working.
And in the CBT game, the weapon ITSELF is a 20 point explosion of damage waiting to be critted.
LB-X weapons in the computer games, aside from MegaMek of course, NEVER WORK PROPERLY!
They should deal extra DMG to locations without ammo.
They should be fucking MECH-Sized SHOTGUNS!
But they are not. They are mechanically almost no different from normal AC. Maybe a bit more explosive splash damage than the normal ACs do.
Ultra ACs are, in the MECHWARRIOR Games strictly better, because they simply double the DMG output. In the CBT games, most people would gladly swap out Ultra ACs for normal or LB-X Cannons, because the Ultra AC just is not reliable enough. And is the ony weapon that can take itself out.
Large-Bore ACs are not meant to be assault weapons, they are basically area denial. Bubbles of "I AM NOT GOING TO GET CLOSE TO THAT!".
LRMs done correctly are not a weapon you want to see on a Mech. Ever.
See indirect targeting. That just does not make for fun gameplay, to have to deal with swarms of dozends to hundreds of missles just raining straight down on you fired from opponents you can't even see, let alone shoot.
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Whipstitch
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

They're great ton for ton but there does hit a tipping point where you should be giving those heat sinks some side-eye and looking at what else you could squeeze in instead. A 15 ton paperweight isn't so bad if it turns an assault mech into an 80 ton paperweight.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It is if it turns your own 80t assault mech into a paperweight.
Remember, once its ammo is gone, it is useless, you now have to make do with the secondary close range stuff on a machine that probably does not like having to get up close and personal with the enemy. Also, 20 points of internal damage, even if you have a completely fine arm and the Gauss is in there, some of the damage will probably still spread to the adjacent torso side. And if you have it in your torso already? Next to stuff that does not like being damaged like an XL-Engine for example? Or other ammo in the same location. Or a small enough mech that the torso side does not take all the damage and some of it does transfer to the center torso . . yes, such mechs do exist <.<

Oh, also, i forgot. An exploded Gauss is an automatic damage to the pilot.

Whereas Heatsinks? YOU CAN NEVER HAVE ENOUGH!
Even if you lose your most heat intense weapon, take an engine hit. or two. suddenly, you are producing +5 or +10 heat! any spare heat sink is welcome there. AND Heat-Sinks are good internal armor, as they soak up critical hits that would otherwise hit things like Ammo. BOOM. Engine. BOOM. Gauss-Rifle. BOOM. Actuators. Increases TN for things and stuff. Weapons. Directly cause loss of firepower/efficiency.
Seriously, one of the best and cheapest MECH Designs?
Hunchback HBK-4P.
8 Medium Lasers. That is 40 points of DMG already. And thus already twice what the original AC20 deals. And it will not run out of ammo. Or have the Ammo explode. Or overheat. And none of the weapons takes up space in both Arm and Side-Torso. And if you get a crit? Either it hits a Heat-Sink for ooh boohoo . . i may need to not fire one of my 8 pwes from time to time . . or a laser for . . oh now i can run and shoot and not get warm at all anymore!

The Gauss-Rifle, the AC20, the Clan ER Large Laser, Heavy PPC, Clan ER PPC and Heavy Large Laser are the only weapons that have enough alpha on their own to headshot an enemy mech no questions asked. And to do so at a considerable range. But THAT is all that is ever speaking for any of these weapons.
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Whipstitch
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I was talking about the pre-MWO MechWarrior video games, dude. Nobody gives a fuck about half the shit you're talking about in that context, for obvious reasons. In the Mechwarrior video games there's three general scenarios you run into:

1. Multiplayer. In this case you should probably accept that unless you're up against scrubs you really do want to consider some nasty ass ballistic shit because battles can get out of hand really quickly once a lance secures first blood. Salute those who are about to die but make damn sure their weapons are heavy enough to kill something on their way out.

2. Single player missions w/ lancemates. AI opponents have a tendency to happily march right up the barrel of your AC20 rather than do a good job of keeping engagements within their most effective range band, so go ahead and do whatever the fuck you want. Pick a range, load up your lance accordingly and watch things turn into confetti. If you go short range you should still hand out some large lasers to kill the stupid helicopters and scout mechs with. The first laser or two is almost as good as free anyway.

3. Single player missions w/o lancements and a ton of enemies. I'd still personally rather have a nasty ballistic or two mixed in so I can murder the biggest mechs on the map super hard, but I understand why you would boat since it does become literally impossible to underestimate how much ammo you need.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In Mechwarrior, the meta has always been LARGE LASER! ER LARGE LASER! CLAN ER LARGE LASER! MORE HEATSINKS!
It works, with exceptions of course, in both single and multiplayer.
Hell, the Laser-Spam even worked in MECH-Commander 1 and 2 . .
One of the reasons why they did not include a proper Mechlab in MWO and MWLL was the fact that as soon as there is a Mechlab in there, everybody and their grandma always remembers the old Meta of more of the biggest laser you can get and more heatsinks and everybody else as fits. And even if it should not work, it will work because everybody does it and the only counter to it is to do it yourself.
In MW4, 5 or 6 ER Large, no matter if clan or IS, were enough to core anything up to and including 100t Mechs at least at the 2nd full salvo, if you somehow messed up the first one.
In MW3, 4 to 6 Clan ER Large Lasers were scalpels capable of simply shearing off Limbs, especially legs and sometimes heads, at comfortable ranges of 600+m. SOMETIMES you wanted PPCs in the multiplayer, because they so nicely gave heat to the target and fucked with their HUD for a bit.
In MW2 and MW2 Mercs, the progression was always biggest gun. Untill you get your hands on Large lasers. Then you spam that shit and heat sinks!

I will concede to one single point at which Ballistics utterly rule.
Remember MW4 Mercs? The steiner ending with the nazi clan wolf test of position to allow you in? Yes, there you take a Daishi with 3x CUAC20 and call it a day. BECAUSE THAT IS CLANNER BULLSHIT DUELLING!

With EVERY WEAPON in Battletech, be it CBT, MC, MegaMek, Mechwarrior 2-5 or MWO, you have to juggle several things:
Crit-Space (will it fit in physically)
Weight-Space (will it fit into the weight limit?)
Ammo (do i need it, if yes, do i need tons of it to never run out? And Ammo, in addition to again needing both crit space and weight runs the risk of running out or exploding)
Heat-Buildup (how many heatsinks will i need to make firing this not a problem for myself?) because every single weapon, including Missles and Ballistics ALSO produce heat. Aside from the Gauss, which is negligible in that regard.
With lasers, you can cut out all of that bullshit and just look at crit, weight, heatsink and be done with it.

I fail to see how you can try and keep arguing that that is not superior to basically anything else . .
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schpeelah
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
Anyone know minecraft? How do I mod this crap, every online guide assumes I know more than I do.

Specifically, I'm trying to download Biomes O'Plenty for 1.11.2. Can someone explain how to install it in a way that an idiot would understand?

I haven't played Minecraft in like a year, but this should still work:

1. Get Minecraft Forge. It has an installer.
2. Download the mod. Just to be sure get it from the Minecraft forums or Curseforge, not any third party site. It's going to be a .zip.
3. Find the .minecraft folder. It's going to be in your user folder or somewhere in AppData, I forget.
4. After you've installed Forge, and possibly launched the game at least once, there will be a mods folder in the .minecraft folder. Just stick the zip with the mod in the folder and you're done.

Alternately, there are launchers such as the FTB Launcher and AT Launcher that manage everything for you, but only give you a selection of modpacks to choose from, you don't manually choose to add mods one by one. You can disable individual mods in a modpack however.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

No no, you can actually modify the modpacks as you want, you just have to unlock them fist, as the ready to play pre compiled modpacks are usually downloaded and stored as read only.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

schpeelah wrote:
Count Arioch the 28th wrote:
Anyone know minecraft? How do I mod this crap, every online guide assumes I know more than I do.

Specifically, I'm trying to download Biomes O'Plenty for 1.11.2. Can someone explain how to install it in a way that an idiot would understand?

I haven't played Minecraft in like a year, but this should still work:

1. Get Minecraft Forge. It has an installer.
2. Download the mod. Just to be sure get it from the Minecraft forums or Curseforge, not any third party site. It's going to be a .zip.
3. Find the .minecraft folder. It's going to be in your user folder or somewhere in AppData, I forget.
4. After you've installed Forge, and possibly launched the game at least once, there will be a mods folder in the .minecraft folder. Just stick the zip with the mod in the folder and you're done.

Alternately, there are launchers such as the FTB Launcher and AT Launcher that manage everything for you, but only give you a selection of modpacks to choose from, you don't manually choose to add mods one by one. You can disable individual mods in a modpack however.
'

I did all that and it didn't work for me.

Hadanelith: Curse doesn't have Biomes O' Plenty by itself, and after having FTB launcher constantly bog down my computer and crash constantly I'm trying to run a minimum amount of mods. And my experiences with Curse ruining WoW to the point where I needed a full reinstall makes me leery of it.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Strange.
Modding Minecraft is one of the easiest things to do usually O.o

Yeah, still is.
If i still knew my minecraft password, i'd have gotten that to work in under 5 minutes.

And yes, Curse DOES HAVE BOP for 1.11.2 stand alone.
That is exactly how i just got it.

And now that i HAVE reset my password i can confirm it works.
I used the twitch desktop app, which is basically curse, and that had already my minecraft data in it, because i had connected those things a few years back when that started already. And then i cliked minecraft. new personalized profile for 1.11.2, then i went to the mods part, no installed mods, went to install mods, searched for biomes a plenty and simply installed it.

and now you need to get over the fact that somebody most people here seem to regard as a grade a idiot managed to do this and you do not. you have my condolences.
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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 9:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That was a shitty way to explain it, but it DID do a better job of explaining that than anyone else.

I guess the only thing I can say is Thank you very much (you fucker).
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Sat May 20, 2017 10:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

*shrugs*
if it's stupid but it works . .

Furthermore, if you want BETTER TERRAIN GENERATION for a bit of a more beautifull world, try the mod atg-1.11.2-2.1.7.jar / Alternate Terrain Generation by TTFTCUTS. It looks way better. Smoother rolling hills and all that.

Sadly, most of my favourite mods do not get any updates anymore, so i can't really recommend many other mods.

Mekanisn is stil 1.10, Thaumcraft is rumored to be released for 1.11 at some point . . Flaxbeards Steampower Mod has long since been abandoned, as has Ancient Warfare and Millenaire. And the Twilight Forrest. *le sigh* ._.
At least Tinkers will allways be there in some way.
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Last edited by Stahlseele on Sat May 20, 2017 10:29 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Hadanelith
Journeyman


Joined: 27 Aug 2011
Posts: 142

PostPosted: Sun May 21, 2017 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

One of the convenient things about Minecraft is that you can pick the patch you want to play on. It's trivial to play with old mods.
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