Eclipse Phase 2nd Edition

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saithorthepyro
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Eclipse Phase 2nd Edition

Post by saithorthepyro »

Wasn't sure where else to put this, but Posthuman Studios announced a new edition of Eclipse Phase a bit over a week ago.

http://eclipsephase.com/eclipse-phase-s ... eased-2017

Some of the biggest rule changes mentioned that look like improvements are a condensed skill list and Morph Aptitude bonuses are changed to a points pool that can be used in ways linked to whatever attribute the pool is in.

Also Gear has been changed from credit prices to Complexity, which sounds like Requisition or Influence from the 40k RPGs.

They also say their improving the layout to reduce the need to flip back and forth between rules in the book.
Last edited by saithorthepyro on Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ancient History »

Meh. I wish 'em well.
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Post by JonSetanta »

I look forward to it.
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Post by Koumei »

Are different people in charge of the hacking rules this time around?

For that matter, has the motion to have the previous guys banned internationally from writing them gone ahead?
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saithorthepyro
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Post by saithorthepyro »

Koumei wrote:Are different people in charge of the hacking rules this time around?

For that matter, has the motion to have the previous guys banned internationally from writing them gone ahead?
Rob Boyle is still listed as part of the creative team (obviously), but Lars Blumenstein isn't, so maybe it has gone ahead.
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Post by TheFlatline »

I remember Eclipse Phase... I don't think I ever actually finished reading it. My eyes kind of glazed over at one point.
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Post by saithorthepyro »

One of the things they've been mentioning in their blog and reddit is that they're trying to re-format and simplify the rules because of that exact reason.
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Post by Hadanelith »

I love the basic idea of Eclipse Phase, but the rules are a garbage fire. Improving the rules and reformating the material will go a long way to making me like the game as a whole (I'm not holding my breath; they're unlikely to fix some of the setting's dramatic stupidity vis a vis timelines and demographics, and the d100 system doesn't appear to be going away). I wish them well, and I look forward to at least reading the revised edition to mine it for ideas.
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Post by Ancient History »

I liked the concept of the setting (I should, I did 366 entries on it), and there is a general lack of really interesting quasi-hard sci fi settings to play around with high concepts in, but the setting lacked a degree of depth because of the compressed timeline.
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Post by Ice9 »

I'm cautiously optimistic.

I didn't have too much trouble with the rules, because the GM was good at patching over the parts that didn't work, and because I was hype enough about the setting to put up with the fiddliness. However, several people in the group really didn't grok the system, and that's likely why the campaign died (there was scheduling issues too). So something that's more streamlined and hopefully more solid would be great.

However, I do have a slight fear that they'll wreck one of the main aspects I enjoy - Eclipse Phase actually lets you use the tech in a way that makes sense. Most other SF games I've played will just say "Nah, too hard to balance, so it doesn't work because reasons" about things like forking, resleeving, writing software, fabrication, network usage, and so forth. If 2E does that, I doubt I'll use it.
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Post by saithorthepyro »

Not much to go on right now, but I agree on keeping the technology rules, they are some of the best parts of the rules. So far what they've mentioned doing (condensed skill list, getting rid of morph aptitude bonus, a requisition based economic system instead of credits) sounds like simplifications to the system without getting rid of depth, so hopefully the rest match that.

Open Playtest documents will start being released tomorrow, so hopefully there will be more to discuss then.

As for the compressed timeline, yeah, that's one of the few parts of the setting I dislike. I don't know if that will be changed in this edition, but they have changed fluff to make more sense in the past.
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Post by saithorthepyro »

So, even though the playtest hasn't been fully released, which I personally do not understand (how are we supposed to playtest without the full rules?) There is enough there to make some changes apparent.

1. Instead of morph attribute bonuses, instead there they will have some different pools of points that they can use. Moxie is one of them, and the three new ones are Flex, Vigor, and Insight. Moxie, Vigor, and Insight can be used for manipulating tests involving Social, Physical, and Mental attribute related tests, as well as a few unique uses for each.

Flex is a narrative based pool that allows players to introduce new elements to the story. It's been compared to Gumshoe's Preparedness mechanic, which probably means more to people on here than me. It's also apparently linked to whatever morph your in to make lesser chosen morphs more likely to be picked.

3. Skills have definitely been compressed. There are references to a 'Gun' skill, and Athletics. It seems Pilot is still split up however.

4. Action economy has been changed, and a new type of action has been introduced, Automatic Actions, which are considered to not eat into the actions a character has per round. This includes movement actions, dodging, perception, and speaking one to two simple sentences. So now only certain talking is a free action.

5. Margins of success have been simplified to the new Superior Successes, which are based on thresholds you need to roll above while still succeeding on the test. Criticals have also been changed.

6. Speed has apparently been removed. Extra actions are now handled through the Vigor or Insight pools.

7. Rest mechanics have been implemented like D&D 5th edition, they are used to restore points from the new pools.

8. Reflex has been merged with Coordination, no idea yet if that will cause a Dex superstat issue.

9. Defined movement type move rates.

Overall, withholding judgment until the entire playtest is released, but some of this looks good (simplified skills, point pools, Flex, margins of success), some looks a little warning (linking Flex to morphs, Reflex merged with Coordination) overall still slightly optimistic.

Link to Playtest: http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/211 ... n-Playtest
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Post by OgreBattle »

Eclipse Phase is a lot of fun to read as a setting and build on (like AH's blog)

I've never once looked at the rules or even thought to look at the rules as it totally did not cross my mind it had its own rules
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Post by Ice9 »

Somebody looked through the char-gen rules and made a couple of test characters at
forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?802216-Eclipse-Phase-Second-edition-incoming!&p=21079270#post21079270
(URL tag doesn't work for some reason, causes the post to be blank).

The results do not look good - much less competent than EP1 characters, and missing skills that they'd need to do their supposed jobs.

I think I'll stick with EP1, unless things change considerably during the playtest.
Last edited by Ice9 on Tue May 16, 2017 7:43 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Post by saithorthepyro »

Yeah, taking a look at the new rules and those sample characters, the problem seems to be that they took the package system from Transhuman as the new rules, but also reduced the amount of variety in the system. There is no more choosing more than one focus, or grabbing varying levels of packages.

Instead, at three points in chargen, you choose a package from a list, get the listed skills, and that's around it. No additional aptitude bonuses or additional moxie like in Transhuman. You do get an equivalent to the 100 free CP, but there's a lot more to cover with it now than before.

I think they went a little to far in simplifying chargen, and could have just adjusted the original packages method and come out with something a lot better than this.

Looking at the rest of the changes, the skill list looks good. We've gone from that 49 skill list in the corebook down to 24 skills. Most of that was merging old skills into one singular skill, often with the old skills being the new specializations.

I'll post more as I go through it.
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Post by Longes »

What I'm getting out of this is that using FATE and treating morph as an easily changeable Aspect is still the way to go.
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Post by saithorthepyro »

Maybe. It's still being playtested, and bad version of Transhuman Packages aside, I like most of the changes they've made to the game. Which is better than other attempts to revise older editions like Pathfinder.
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Post by saithorthepyro »

Necro-posting to take a look at what's been put up in the playtest thus far for anyone who cares here.

Game Mechanics

D6 will be used in addition to D10s now, with base mechanics is still d100 roll under with the confusing part of having to roll under the TN but roll high for criticals and opposed rolls.

Modifiers and TN are still the same with different names. It is still suggested that the GM decide for himself what the task difficulty will be.

The new critical success/fail mechanics is in called Superior Successes and Failures, and it is..interesting. Essentially there are two thresholds at 33 and 66. If you roll above these numbers and succeed, you get one and two superior successes respectively. If you roll below them and fail you get two and one superior failure respectively. These can be spent on a pre-listed set of modifiers to dice rolls or the action you were rolling for. This system is very skill dependent, with high skill actions being more likely to get Successes while low skill ones are more likely to get failures. I guess they're trying to emphasize specialization with this mechanic.

Also, the above system is not the way to get criticals, as they've also kept in the rolling double system from before as a separate part of the dice mechanics. I'm not entirely sure why there's two, it just adds another level to every roll made.

Defaulting and Teamwork are the same, although critical successes and failures add reasons to not do the former and to make the latter one better.

The number of actions has been defined to 1 Complex and 1 Quick, 1 Task and 1 Quick, or 3 Quick actions, so the GM no longer decides how many quick actions you get a round.

While not technically in Game Mechanics, it's worth mentioning that here that Coordination has been merged into Reflexes, meaning that it's back to one stat that improves initiative, and determines your ability to fire ranged weapons and dodge attacks. The other five aptitudes are the same as before.

Biggest change is the addition of new pools to the game, which are set by whatever morph you are currently in and replace the aptitude bonuses of 1st edition. There are currently four pools, 3 linked to two aptitudes each Vigor (Somatics and Reflexes), Insight (Cognition and Intuition), and Moxie (Willpower and Savvy), which usually go 1-3 but go higher for some morphs. Each pool can be used to affect tests related to their aptitudes, with the usual of ignore all negative modifiers, +20 to the TN, flipping the digits of the roll, some new ones based on the new critical system, and a permanent +5 or +10 to rolls for 24 hours. Each pool also has uses specific to it

Vigor can be spent to take an extra quick or complex action, much like Speed from the 1st edition, which no longer exists. Go first in initiative order and ignore the effects of one wound are the other two effects. Moxie can be spent to avoid making infection tests when using psi sleights, retroactively ignore a social gaffe made by the player, not the character, ignore a trauma for twenty-four hours, acquire a clue using social interaction without a test,and refresh rep network favors. Insight is spent to go first when you're doing Mesh or mental actions, take extra mesh or mental actions, or to acquire a clue through Cognition or Intuition related skills without rolling.

The final pool is Flex, which is also based on Morph and not Ego, with the developers stating this was to make lesser-chosen morph choices more attractive. They are used to introduce new elements into a scene by the player, whether it be a new NPC, Item, feature of the environment, or relationship with an existing NPC.

There's a new equivalent of d&d 5e Long and Short rest to go with these mechanics, Short rests being ten minutes long and refreshing 1d6 points distributed as you choose, and Long rests being 4 hours and refreshing to full. Short rests can only be done twice a day, Long rests once.

Next: Actions and Combat
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Post by OgreBattle »

How action combat heavy was 1st edition, did it have good vehicle or space
Combat rules?
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Post by saithorthepyro »

It was decently combat heavy, and did have Spacecraft/Vehicle rules that were mostly extrapolation of the combat system used for grunt to grunt combat. On the quality of those actual rules, well, I'll just post what Frank had to say because it's better than what I could
FrankTrollman wrote:
Combat: Too Many Steps

Combat is clunky and uninteresting. Basically people die very quickly and you don't really mind because backups are available. However, the game throws a wrench at you by having things take more time than they should, and to behave in ways that are severely counterintuitive.

For starters, you attack someone and they roll a defense roll. Natural enough, right? Also, if your margin of success is high, you'll do extra damage. Again, to be expected. And you might think that having a higher margin of success on your attack roll than the defender's margin of success that you hit – and you'd be totally wrong. Actually you compare the literal value of your attack roll and their defense roll and whoever got a worse roll and still succeeded wins. Seriously, there's an entirely superfluous game of blackjack layered onto checking your margin of success to determine whether you hit or not. No one knows why this is.

On top of that, there's the incredibly weird thing where you get critical fumbles when the defender rolls doubles on their percentile dice and rolls under their defense score. Which I guess is supposed to produce a “Storm Trooper Effect” or something in that people (regardless of skill) drop their weapons continuously when fighting against skilled opposition. But the effect, while frequent enough to be humorous and bizarre, is not actually enough to save your ass, especially because your Defense score is halved when your opponents use ranged weapons, which they will be doing because this is the god damned future and they sure as fuck aren't going to be trying to cut you up with a guisarme. As such it works out to: every time an opponent attacks you, they have a 1% chance of losing their weapon plus an additional 1% for every 22 points of “Fray” skill you have – the game straight up tells you that Fray is a “necessary” skill for almost all characters, but that is clearly a god damn lie.

Every character needs exactly one weapon skill and the biggest weapon related to that skill they can get. Characters are thus like Warhammer 40k units. Josh users a Bolter because he took “Kinetic Weapons” and Greg users a Melta Gun because he took “Beam Weapons.” Did I mention that there are too many weapon skills? Oh yes, yes I did. I totally stand by that assessment.

And finally, actually inflicting damage is a strange foray into another game system entirely, because now you're rolling d10s and adding them together and subtracting them from your opponent's hit points. Also, you are dividing that damage by a completely arbitrary number to see how many wound levels you hand out. You'll probably hand out 2 or 3, which translates to -20 or -30 respectively to all skills. So pretty much anyone you wound is completely fucked no matter what you hit them with. And they probably have enough hit points to stay up (nominally) after getting hit one, but not if hit twice. People also die for good if you hit them 3 times. It's... a lot of dice rolling and math for what is essentially a foregone conclusion.

-Username17
There's a lot of issues with it. I'd say it's salvageable, just with a good deal of effort. 2nd edition's playtest has already taken a few steps to correcting this, for example there's now only one ranged weapon and one melee weapon skill. I'll go into more detail when I cover that section.
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