The Gaming Den Forum Index The Gaming Den
Welcome to the Gaming Den.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Google
 Search WWW   Search tgdmb.com 
Rogue tricks

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Gaming Den Forum Index -> In My Humble Opinion...
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
RobbyPants
Prince


Joined: 06 Aug 2008
Posts: 4427

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:45 am    Post subject: Rogue tricks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Back to the idea of different classes with different resource mechanics, I was thinking about the idea of a trick-based rogue class. The basic idea is to have a class that uses trickery to set up for different tricks. The obvious candidate is the 3E version of Sneak Attack (or something similar).

I'm curious what other ideas people have, for a 3E-esque game. I figure some will involve various debuffs to help set up for future attacks. Perhaps things like:

  • Making a surprised target shaken/frightened.
  • Nauseating someone denied their Dex bonus to AC against the attack.
  • Better ability to perform trips/disarms/movement penalties at range.
  • Dropping save/AC penalties after the target is damaged.

The biggest thing is, all I'm really thinking of is pretty low-level stuff. This seems like the sort of thing you'd see in an E6 kind of game. What kinds of tricks would a 15th level rogue do? About the best I can think of is perusing the Sorcerer/Wizard list, trying to think of what types of high-level spells look "rogue-like".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MGuy
Prince


Joined: 21 Jul 2009
Posts: 3392
Location: Indiana

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

In the thing I was writing (haven't had time to write on it in half a year at least so I may misremember some things) I had a "Rogue" class set named Scoundrel. Each archetype gained abilities related to certain skills. The Thief got various disarm and acrobatic tricks that allowed them to move quickly around the battlefield to lay traps, distract, or otherwise disarm/impede foes. The Assassin was all about sneak attacks and applying debilitating effects from those sneak attacks with some quick recharge benefits for being able to go back into stealth. Last there was the agent who was essentially for support. Had some mind affect and illusion based abilities thst would trick targets into missing attacks place abilities on the wrong target, and other assorted minor interruptions with its abilities getting bonuses or extra effects if the agent interacted with the targets in certain ways prior to engagement.
_________________
The first rule of Fatclub. Don't Talk about Fatclub..
I've always thought it best to never hit a lady, but be sure to beat a bitch. -TOZ
MGuy wrote:
Finally a thread about fighters!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
Voss
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3683

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: Rogue tricks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

RobbyPants wrote:
Back to the idea of different classes with different resource mechanics, I was thinking about the idea of a trick-based rogue class. The basic idea is to have a class that uses trickery to set up for different tricks. The obvious candidate is the 3E version of Sneak Attack (or something similar).

I'm curious what other ideas people have, for a 3E-esque game. I figure some will involve various debuffs to help set up for future attacks. Perhaps things like:

  • Making a surprised target shaken/frightened.
  • Nauseating someone denied their Dex bonus to AC against the attack.
  • Better ability to perform trips/disarms/movement penalties at range.
  • Dropping save/AC penalties after the target is damaged.

The biggest thing is, all I'm really thinking of is pretty low-level stuff. This seems like the sort of thing you'd see in an E6 kind of game. What kinds of tricks would a 15th level rogue do? About the best I can think of is perusing the Sorcerer/Wizard list, trying to think of what types of high-level spells look "rogue-like".


Death attacks are a thing that can come online at level 6. So frankly I have no idea what justifies the rogue class for even existing past that point. ( or honestly before that point)

The reasonable abilities at 15th should involve stun juggling at minimum


Last edited by Voss on Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:31 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 12052

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Rogue tricks Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
RobbyPants wrote:
Back to the idea of different classes with different resource mechanics, I was thinking about the idea of a trick-based rogue class. The basic idea is to have a class that uses trickery to set up for different tricks. The obvious candidate is the 3E version of Sneak Attack (or something similar).

I'm curious what other ideas people have, for a 3E-esque game. I figure some will involve various debuffs to help set up for future attacks. Perhaps things like:

  • Making a surprised target shaken/frightened.
  • Nauseating someone denied their Dex bonus to AC against the attack.
  • Better ability to perform trips/disarms/movement penalties at range.
  • Dropping save/AC penalties after the target is damaged.

The biggest thing is, all I'm really thinking of is pretty low-level stuff. This seems like the sort of thing you'd see in an E6 kind of game. What kinds of tricks would a 15th level rogue do? About the best I can think of is perusing the Sorcerer/Wizard list, trying to think of what types of high-level spells look "rogue-like".


Death attacks are a thing that can come online at level 6. So frankly I have no idea what justifies the rogue class for even existing past that point. ( or honestly before that point)

The reasonable abilities at 15th should involve stun juggling at minimum


"It's okay to give fighters infinite damage because death effects exist at level 6, so therefore all damage becomes worthless, because obviously there are no defenses against death effects that don't work against damage."
_________________
"DSMatticus" wrote:
Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Voss
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3683

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yeah, no. Rogues already get piles of damage, so that definitely has nothing to do with the discussion.

The point is doing trivial stuff like shaken, tripping or disarming when outright death is on the table 9 levels earlier is fucking pointless. Claiming they are meaningful effects to hand out at any level is pretty tough.

Nauseating is actually pretty strong, and AC/save penalties might matter, but it can be hard to argue that these are stchicks that belong to the rogue and aren't just something that can be handed out to anyone.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RobbyPants
Prince


Joined: 06 Aug 2008
Posts: 4427

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, the conditions don't have to be only available for rogues to use. I'm fine with wizards and rogues both throwing the nauseated condition, or whatever.

I'm looking for effects that would be level appropriate, thematic, and using a resource mechanic that primarily involves exploiting some weakness rather than use-based.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 12052

PostPosted: Tue Apr 18, 2017 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Yeah, no. Rogues already get piles of damage, so that definitely has nothing to do with the discussion.

The point is doing trivial stuff like shaken, tripping or disarming when outright death is on the table 9 levels earlier is fucking pointless. Claiming they are meaningful effects to hand out at any level is pretty tough.


..........................................................................................................................................

How stupid are you?

"X = Z."
"X+Y is worthless, because Y is less than Z."

What the fuck are you even saying you idiot?
_________________
"DSMatticus" wrote:
Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Judging__Eagle
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 4524
Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:


Nauseating is actually pretty strong, and AC/save penalties might matter, but it can be hard to argue that these are stchicks that belong to the rogue and aren't just something that can be handed out to anyone.


One could also make the case for the erasure of the "fighter" and "rogue" classes; and replacing them with "adventurer"; erasing the artificial split that reduced the "Non-magic" hero's power levels a great deal post-OD&D.
_________________
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Voss
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 3683

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
Voss wrote:
Yeah, no. Rogues already get piles of damage, so that definitely has nothing to do with the discussion.

The point is doing trivial stuff like shaken, tripping or disarming when outright death is on the table 9 levels earlier is fucking pointless. Claiming they are meaningful effects to hand out at any level is pretty tough.


..........................................................................................................................................

How stupid are you?

"X = Z."
"X+Y is worthless, because Y is less than Z."

What the fuck are you even saying you idiot?


This isn't complicated at all. At mid levels and beyond, rogues can just opt to try to outright save-or-die people or throw giant piles of damage dice that just plain kill people.

If you want to hand out new high level or even mid-level abilities for rogues, they have to be comparable in some way to just plain eliminating an enemy outright, or at least utilitarian in _some_ fashion. Shaken, tripping and all that shit isn't, and can never be. They're shit options that aren't worth burning actions on.

Nauseating gets a slight pass because it's a low level way to start stun locking, which can also be useful. Especially with rogues, since their default state is horribly binary- either they can kill shit fast, or the target is immune and they're forced to stand around holding their junk.

Next, if you like, I can explain how you can step up onto a really short curb.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 12052

PostPosted: Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
Kaelik wrote:
Voss wrote:
Yeah, no. Rogues already get piles of damage, so that definitely has nothing to do with the discussion.

The point is doing trivial stuff like shaken, tripping or disarming when outright death is on the table 9 levels earlier is fucking pointless. Claiming they are meaningful effects to hand out at any level is pretty tough.


..........................................................................................................................................

How stupid are you?

"X = Z."
"X+Y is worthless, because Y is less than Z."

What the fuck are you even saying you idiot?


This isn't complicated at all. At mid levels and beyond, rogues can just opt to try to outright save-or-die people or throw giant piles of damage dice that just plain kill people.

If you want to hand out new high level or even mid-level abilities for rogues, they have to be comparable in some way to just plain eliminating an enemy outright, or at least utilitarian in _some_ fashion. Shaken, tripping and all that shit isn't, and can never be. They're shit options that aren't worth burning actions on.

Nauseating gets a slight pass because it's a low level way to start stun locking, which can also be useful. Especially with rogues, since their default state is horribly binary- either they can kill shit fast, or the target is immune and they're forced to stand around holding their junk.

Next, if you like, I can explain how you can step up onto a really short curb.


You are a fucking idiot. You are the dumbest idiot.

No matter how many times you repeat "X+Y Is terrible, because Y is less than X" you are still an idiot.

Learn to read, come back when you can read, never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever say anything to any other human being until you learn how to read. Thanks kiddo.
_________________
"DSMatticus" wrote:
Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
Click here to see the hidden message (It might contain spoilers)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    The Gaming Den Forum Index -> In My Humble Opinion... All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum




Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group